Why you wants everything from Russia?so maybe we have to turn to russia for helicopter based AEW&C planes
Why you wants everything from Russia?so maybe we have to turn to russia for helicopter based AEW&C planes
Actually India already have such an Aircraft perfectly fits for the job, ( NAL Saras ), For the role of AEW platform SARAS may be extended and powered by Jets in simple words it would be a massive modification to original SARAS light Aircraft, But working on SARAS will help DRDO not to work on a fresh project from scratch, SARAS is a working prototype which just need to adapt for AEW role..Could be possible. But these seaplanes will require fueling on even medium range missions. As a shore based AEW platform, it can serve well. However, many technical issues will be glitches including the limited Take-off weight of these seaplanes. But I feel carrier based AEW are still required in deep waters.
An extended version of Saras is planned. Commercial production of the aircraft is now expected by 2010.
well first they are reliable , their weapons are cheap,and robust ,plus comes with no strings attached , if you talk of this particular need expressed in this thread , then as of now Ka-31 is only aircraft which can adress the need of IN, since plane based AWE&C aircraft would need catapult launch which we dont have untill 60,000 tones IAC-2 comes into serviceWhy you wants everything from Russia?
Right,We cannot use the Saras for anything right now. AEW role is out of question. The plane lacks basic structural integrity and aerodynamics is heavily flawed. It is the worst thing flying in the world right now. NAL is not even able to fix problems with its rudder.
Even if Saras is a successful development it is useless in Marine environments. The only planes capable of operation on a carrier is the E-2 and maybe the V-22. For now..
The flaw and can be corrected with better observation and research, Its good to have a working indigenous plane which can fly and with better funding it will improve..simple words it would be a massive modification to original SARAS light Aircraft,
You said the current Saras can be improved upon. So, I suggested it cannot.Right,
But i never said 'original SARAS' nor the word 'NOW'!
The flaw and can be corrected with better observation and research, Its good to have a working indigenous plane which can fly and with better funding it will improve..
NAL cannot deliver either. It is impossible as we are now.Regarding Marine it may need hard landing gears powerful engines..
There can never be a carrier version of the Saras. The aerodynamics and flight envelope is that of a small transport plane and not a AEW. AEW needs a platform 4 times heavier than the current version. That will make it a new plane. So, Saras is not the answer.Though its better to work on a semi successful project than to start from the scratch..
SARAS is a project which can have multiple diversion in different sectors, Carrier Version, Civillian tarensport/ Military transport, AEW etc..
Why not?You said the current Saras can be improved upon. So, I suggested it cannot.
I don't think u r right abt Aerodynamics regarding SARAS, If that Aircraft is so heavily flawed it couldn't take off besides it don't have any fly by wire, its operated totally manually..The plane lacks basic structural integrity and aerodynamics is heavily flawed.
NAL & DRDO collaboration may prove useful..NAL cannot deliver either. It is impossible as we are now.
There can never be a carrier version of the Saras. The aerodynamics and flight envelope is that of a small transport plane and not a AEW. AEW needs a platform 4 times heavier than the current version.
Maybe Russians.
The term 'multiple diversion' means it have to change its configuration according to environment, that means 10% to 90% change in basic structure..multiple diversion in different sectors, Carrier Version, Civillian tarensport/ Military transport, AEW etc..
My Idea was based on present and future manufacture of DRDO`s AEW based on Indigenous Aircraft which will make entire project 100% Indigenous, which includes Land based Indigenous plane as well as Carrier based Indigenous plane, But if India like to import suitable Aircrafts for the naval program then it is fine and cheap, But what holds in future for those imported Aircrafts is doubtful..We need an entirely new plane for any kind of AEW. Instead we can work with Embraer or any other company in developing a Carrier based plane rather than work on our own, cheaper and faster.
Hardly True. More research and funding is just an excuse. They need better management rather than funds et al. If this was 10 years ago, I would have agreed. Right now they have funds and they have been outsourcing a lot of design work to smaller private companies. They still ended up with a crashed prototype due to faulty design. They don't even know what they are doing. They are changing design specifications every other day. The private companies finish their work in time and NAL send a new design. None of it has ever been properly flight tested. They are clueless.Why not?
It need better funding and more research and correction..
Another excuse. Why does the plane need a fly by wire. It is a 8 tons class plane. Sticking a fly by wire in it will mean increase in costs and nobody will buy it ever. It is relatively very easy to fly this plane. All it does is fly straight, bank left and right. It does not need any complex avionics.I don't think u r right abt Aerodynamics regarding SARAS, If that Aircraft is so heavily flawed it couldn't take off besides it don't have any fly by wire, its operated totally manually..
I would be happy with one proper flying prototype.The term 'multiple diversion' means it have to change its configuration according to environment, that means 10% to 90% change in basic structure..
They have far more experience in aircraft design. They deliver finished products. We have done that only once 50 years ago. They also have a requirement for 5 new Carriers. So, an AEW aircraft will be an obvious requirement.Btw, Russian don't have any experience regarding carrier based AEW aircrafts.
JVs are better. Cheaper and faster. Russia, US, France does not matter who.In these case India have to work on its own or gather knowledge from US..
I partial agree with you but this is no excuses to stop a indigenous working prototype project..Hardly True. More research and funding is just an excuse. They need better management rather than funds et al. If this was 10 years ago, I would have agreed. Right now they have funds and they have been outsourcing a lot of design work to smaller private companies.
Its a prototype it meant to improve vie change/ Improvement and And besides their was no faulty design in aerodynamicsThey still ended up with a crashed prototype due to faulty design. They don't even know what they are doing. They are changing design specifications every other day. The private companies finish their work in time and NAL send a new design. None of it has ever been properly flight tested. They are clueless.
http://www.thehindu.com/2009/07/21/stories/2009072156231300.htmwrong engine relight drills given to the pilots caused the crash.
Nobody said its essential but the point was it was good working model with good aerodynamic..Why does the plane need a fly by wire. It is a 8 tons class plane. Sticking a fly by wire in it will mean increase in costs and nobody will buy it ever. It is relatively very easy to fly this plane. All it does is fly straight, bank left and right. It does not need any complex avionics.
1 >The first Saras (PT1) completed its maiden flight at the HAL airport in Bangalore on 29 May 2004.I would be happy with one proper flying prototype.
Making land base aircraft and making carrier based Aircraft are very different jobs..They have far more experience in aircraft design. They deliver finished products. We have done that only once 50 years ago. They also have a requirement for 5 new Carriers. So, an AEW aircraft will be an obvious requirement.
I believe i have been understood wrongly ;i was alluding to the times when seaplane spotters accompanied battleships i believe we could build an AWACS based upon the Beriev be 200 aircraft that could similarly accompany the vikaramditya i.e the awacs would not use the flight deck other than for transport over long distances in an operational deployment she would be lowered into the water and would use the sea as her landing strip.Could be possible. But these seaplanes will require fueling on even medium range missions. As a shore based AEW platform, it can serve well. However, many technical issues will be glitches including the limited Take-off weight of these seaplanes. But I feel carrier based AEW are still required in deep waters.
I believe i have been understood wrongly ;i was alluding to the times when seaplane spotters accompanied battleships i believe we could build an AWACS based upon the Beriev be 200 aircraft that could similarly accompany the vikaramditya i.e the awacs would not use the flight deck other than for transport over long distances in an operational deployment she would be lowered into the water and would use the sea as her landing strip.
The take off weight should not be a problem the DRDO AWACS programme is based upon the EMB-145 platform which has a MTOW of 18,500kg for the ERJ145xr, much lower than the Beriev the be-200 has a MTOW of 37500kg.
the Beriev also has a range of 2100km i.e more than enough to keep pace with the fleet.
the only issue i believe that could be a problem is the problem with high waves in the deep seas.
We don't have to. Sir. you need to be objective and see the purpose of the post. You said Saras can be worked on for Carrier aviation as an AEW. I pointed out the mistakes that cannot help it become a AEW. It is not even close to a proper aircraft.I partial agree with you but this is no excuses to stop a indigenous working prototype project..
Far from the truth. The administrators handling the project are completely clueless. At first they wanted a fully composite design, then they changed the rudder to metal and now are completely clueless as to what to expect next. The Russians have taken over now.Its a prototype it meant to improve vie change/ Improvement and And besides their was no faulty design in aerodynamics
http://www.thehindu.com/2009/07/21/stories/2009072156231300.htm
Nobody said its essential but the point was it was good working model with good aerodynamic..
And this;The Hindu has learnt from officials connected with the board of inquiry that the engine relight (engine restart) drills given by the designers and followed by the pilots were wrong.
You need to be analytical here.the pilots just followed the designer's briefings.
You failed to understand my point again.1 >The first Saras (PT1) completed its maiden flight at the HAL airport in Bangalore on 29 May 2004.
2> The second prototype (PT2) first flew on 20 April 2007.
3> Work is on the third prototype ( PT3 )
There were 2 AEW developments that were worked on by Russia. They stopped after the breakup in '91. They are capable of developing a plane that can land on a carrier deck. We are not.Besides 5 Rus carriers will operate in next 20-50 years, So their are 0% chance with anything related with carrier AEW aircrafts with Russians..
@p2prada,You need to be analytical here.
Engine controls depend a lot on external factors. It is the direct result of the aerodynamics of the aircraft in relation to the aircraft during flight. The airflow must be near perfect to complete an engine relight successfully. If you don't know at what speed and what pressure the airflow is coming in then you have no idea what's going to happen. And that's what happened here. The designers had no clue about the quality of the aircraft's design. They assumed something and something else happened. The aerodynamics of the aircraft is the most basic requirement when designing a plane and it is severely lacking in all parameters. It was not an engine fault or pilot's fault. It was the designers fault for providing wrong information to the pilots about the aerodynamics of the aircraft. It only means the designers are clueless.
RIP..PROBABLE CAUSE(S):
Incorrect relight procedure devised by the designer and adopted by the crew at insufficient height leading to rapid loss of altitude and abnormal behavior of aircraft resulted into accident.
Contributory factors:
a) Lack of crew coordination and cockpit procedures
b) Handling of the controls
c) Non-aborting of flight by the crew in coordination with the flight test Director after failure of first relight attempt.
d) Devising engine relight procedures by NAL without consulting the propeller manufacturer.
http://aviationsafetynetwork.wordpr...t-flight-causes-crash-of-nal-saras-prototype/
Those were prototypes not operational and presently their are no plans of Carrier based AEW, If Russia work again on those project than we may have a JV with them but their are no such projects right now therefore their is no chance of Russian involvements, But JV with US is possible..There were 2 AEW developments that were worked on by Russia. They stopped after the breakup in '91. They are capable of developing a plane that can land on a carrier deck. We are not.
Exactly what I meant. They have no clue when it comes to aerodynamics. They have no idea what happens to the air flow around propellers and are jumping to wrong conclusions due to lack of knowledge.Devising engine relight procedures by NAL without consulting the propeller manufacturer.
It does not matter who the JV is with. Let it be with the US, Russia or lets rope in EADS. It is just that we cannot do it alone with our level of management and technical skills. We simply don't have the experience or the technical know how.Those were prototypes not operational and presently their are no plans of Carrier based AEW, If Russia work again on those project than we may have a JV with them but their are no such projects right now therefore their is no chance of Russian involvements, But JV with US is possible..
Perhaps you missed the most important fact that Pt-2 was having new engines and new propeller deign which Pratt & Whitney's inexplicable failure to convey enough about the engine and propeller to the aircraft's maker and so NAL also didn't consulting with propeller manufacturer. The new propeller is the root of the entire accident thats why ASN site mentioned abt propeller!They have no clue when it comes to aerodynamics. They have no idea what happens to the air flow around propellers and are jumping to wrong conclusions due to lack of knowledge.
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True that's the reason the best option would be JV..It does not matter who the JV is with. Let it be with the US, Russia or lets rope in EADS. It is just that we cannot do it alone with our level of management and technical skills. We simply don't have the experience or the technical know how.