Know Your 'Rafale'

[Sancho]

It's why it's called F3 XX, because it's the last iteration of the core standard of Rafale : F3, fully multirole.
If you say that adding Meteor is a poor iteration....

Lol, so because it's the last F3 upgrade, it needs to be a poor one?
The reality is, that only mimum upgrades were done, which limited the costs and everything important was pushed to the F4. NG IRST, GaN upgrade for SPECTRA, additional AASM varients...
So while all competitors are coming up with credible upgrades in the next 2 years (EF P3E, Gripen E, F18SH Block 3, even Mig 35/29K), Rafale got a poor F3R. That's why it's losing the edge it had during MMRCA for example. During the trials, IAF reportedly was impressed, by simultaneous strikes with AASM at different targets. Today competitors can do it too, with upgraded LGBs and PGMs. While even the US teens get IRST upgrades, Rafale loses it's IRST and the single biggest advantage of Rafale, the EW suddenly is nothing special anymore, since even the Russians have understood the importance of multiple sensors with 360 degree or special view. That made upgrades to SPECTRA more than important to stay ahead, but here again, other than minors improvements of the existing system, nothing was done now and only pushed to the F4 in 2025.

 

[mayfair]

Say the one that left out the important part=>

No..Try again...

"We broke the circle by deciding that we have to take a different approach.”

Seems like you left out all the important parts...

 

[Willy2]

So while all competitors are coming up with credible upgrades in the next 2 years (EF P3E, Gripen E, F18SH Block 3, even Mig 35/29K),

Problem with u that u believe these companies every word . We are waiting for Mig35 from 2007 ..it was promised to be ready for service in 2009...a decade past .
Even they bring these technologies within 2 years ,they need time for evaluation and it would take almost half-decade to reach rafale level of efficiency .

And then u can't use the cost comparison too ..as then those upgraded jets would have similar prize like Rafale ..
So u are demanding that we should wait for another 5/10 years to buy Rafale level of jet in similar prize ? Why ?

 

[Kshithij]

Problem with u that u believe these companies every word . We are waiting for Mig35 from 2007 ..it was promised to be ready for service in 2009...a decade past .
Even they bring these technologies within 2 years ,they need time for evaluation and it would take almost half-decade to reach rafale level of efficiency .

And then u can't use the cost comparison too ..as then those upgraded jets would have similar prize like Rafale ..
So u are demanding that we should wait for another 5/10 years to buy Rafale level of jet in similar prize ? Why ?

He has been shouting Gripen from long time but doesn't understand that it is nothing but an airframe and avionics. If that itself makes a fighter, pretty mich anyone would make them. There is some problem with that person

 

[BON PLAN]

Lol, so because it's the last F3 upgrade, it needs to be a poor one?
The reality is, that only mimum upgrades were done, which limited the costs and everything important was pushed to the F4. NG IRST, GaN upgrade for SPECTRA, additional AASM varients...
So while all competitors are coming up with credible upgrades in the next 2 years (EF P3E, Gripen E, F18SH Block 3, even Mig 35/29K), Rafale got a poor F3R. That's why it's losing the edge it had during MMRCA for example. During the trials, IAF reportedly was impressed, by simultaneous strikes with AASM at different targets. Today competitors can do it too, with upgraded LGBs and PGMs. While even the US teens get IRST upgrades, Rafale loses it's IRST and the single biggest advantage of Rafale, the EW suddenly is nothing special anymore, since even the Russians have understood the importance of multiple sensors with 360 degree or special view. That made upgrades to SPECTRA more than important to stay ahead, but here again, other than minors improvements of the existing system, nothing was done now and only pushed to the F4 in 2025.

No.
Just because F3R arrived quite early after F3 O4T, so don't imagine a Klingon space ship.
And just remember the swiss eval : Rafale F3.3 was already the best one, and with the suggested evolution (F3R) also.

Just about AESA : Rafale has its own until 5 years. When no other west europeen have.

F4 will bring some very new features.

 

[Sancho]

Problem with u that u believe these companies every word .

Actually it's the opposite, because I inform myself to know what will come and what won't and not just assume things. That's why I can disgusting between the Mig 35 that was offered in MMRCA(which remains a paper plane) and the one that Russia has presented this year.
Same goes for Rafale, that had promised far more capabilities, which however kept being pushed to future upgrade standards. That's why you see many French forumers pointing to the F4 upgrade in 2025 now, although the coming upgrade is the F3R. F4 is the wish, a bad F3R the reality.

So u are demanding that we should wait for another 5/10 years to buy Rafale level of jet in similar prize ? Why ?

Who said we should wait more years? The problem is that we need more years till we get the required number of MMRCAs, because we went for a bad deal for only 36 fighters, instead of buying 126 MMRCAs in 2015! If it was possible to get that many Rafales then, we should have made the deal, if not had gone for 126 other MMRCAs.
And even now, when IAF want to speed things up and send and RFI for SE MMRCAs, it's the government that once again delays the procurement of critical fighters.

 

[Sancho]

Just about AESA : Rafale has its own until 5 years. When no other west europeen have.

True, but you also have to say why it needed it that early, because the RBE2 PESA couldn't keep up with the radars of the competition. It had more advanced technology, but was too small in size and not capable enough to compete with EFs Captor E, let alone US AESAs.
Not to mention that UAE demanded AESAS too, but found the RBE2 AESAS not good enough in comparison to the AGP 80 of their F16s. So having AESA radar technology, doesn't make Rafale automatically superior. Nor does it stay ahead, if no credible upgrades will be added. Still waiting for any official info on LEA btw.

 

[Willy2]

Who said we should wait more years? The problem is that we need more years till we get the required number of MMRCAs, because we went for a bad deal for only 36 fighters, instead of buying 126 MMRCAs in 2015! If it was possible to get that many Rafales then, we should have made the deal, if not had gone for 126 other MMRCAs.

You....indirectly , even ur ET's F3XX would't be ready within 2/3 years .

In last 15 pages ,it was fully explained by fellow members through opinion of blogger/govt report etc that the them MMRCA turn too complicated to push thanks to Antony's approach which left too many loophole for Dessault to turn the deal into a mess ..

About the green part , same again ..just check last 20 pages ,atleast once it mention in everypage why we should go for ET , it's CVC's accord that during tender process we can't give contract to L2 in any circumstances, we have to cancel the MMRCA and call another tender which cost another 4/5 years .

Now as u see govt after cancellation of MMRCA , instead of going for 126 jet order just 36 , its only lead to few conclusion .
1) Govt don't want to order 126 in one batch as it would cost heavy money in one go , also govt try to test rafale post production serviceability , Dessaults other commitments etc before giving a go to 100+ aircraft .

or 2) as I already mention earlier ,since MMRCA tender first came out it almost decade past...there is a heavy possibility that with changing geo-political scenario , improving/deteriorating relations , and improved indigenous capacity might chance the role of MMRCA in IAF , so no need for 126+63 aircarft anymore ...We would have a clear picture from 2020 onward when tejas production-order would "hopefully" stabilize.

 

[Sancho]

New Avionics For Gripen, Typhoon And Rafale
July 2014

Bruno Carrara, director of the Rafale program at Thales, says the F3-R upgrade will involve a more advanced electromagnetic detection capability based on new digital wide-band-receiver technologies, improving the suite’s spectrum analysis as well as its instantaneous interception capability.

Thales will also update Spectra’s solid-state jamming subsystem, which was one of the first to use electronically steered phased-array antennas. Carrara says for F3R, Spectra will include more powerful antennas, while further increasing the power supply so that more threats can be jammed simultaneously. Like Saab, Thales will use GaN technology because of its power and efficiency...

http://m.aviationweek.com/defense/new-avionics-gripen-typhoon-and-rafale


Air Force monthly Rafale Special
July 2017

...Formal development of the new Standard F4 will begin in 2018, but risk-reduction studies will be launched this year. “Standard F4 will be even more ambitious than F3R,” explained the programme director. “While F3R is mainly restricted to software upgrades, new hardware will be required for the far-reaching F4...

...GaN technology

Thales and the DGA are actively preparing the future radar developments that will be introduced on Standard F4.2, incorporating cutting-edge Gallium Nitride (GaN) technology for the radar and jammer antennas. Thanks to additional radar apertures, detection capabilities will be unmatched and electronic attack capabilities will become a reality. The programme director explained:

“Even though we are entirely satisfied with the current RBE2 AESA radar, we are already working on the next generation scheduled to appear on new-build aircraft in 2025. “For the same volume, GaN technology will offer an expanded bandwidth, more radiated power and an even easier ability to switch from one mode to another, or from one functionality to another.

With the same antenna, we will be capable of generating combined, interleaved radar, jamming and electronic warfare modes as part of an electronic attack mission. “GaN emitters will not be restricted to the radar and they will also equip the Spectra suite. For example, for the antennas in the wing apexes, ahead of the canard foreplanes, we could obtain a very quick emission/reception cycle, either saving some volume or augmenting radiated power...
http://www.f-16.net/forum/download/file.php?id=25484&sid=5fd71907ad137a02dcc17774fb7f7a09

 

[Kshithij]

formation is natural which went under sea during end of last period of Ice age....Sand carbon dating unlike stones in sea is not considered a perfect or valid method as sand near & in costal water keep shifting even if it is sandwich right beneath the rock. The sattelite pic of the area shows the ripple in sand which is caused by sea as sand is being moved from one place to another....Size of stones are to big to be made or put their by humans.

Slavery has not been rooted out from our brains.

__________________________________________

New Avionics For Gripen, Typhoon And Rafale
July 2014

Bruno Carrara, director of the Rafale program at Thales, says the F3-R upgrade will involve a more advanced electromagnetic detection capability based on new digital wide-band-receiver technologies, improving the suite’s spectrum analysis as well as its instantaneous interception capability.

Thales will also update Spectra’s solid-state jamming subsystem, which was one of the first to use electronically steered phased-array antennas. Carrara says for F3R, Spectra will include more powerful antennas, while further increasing the power supply so that more threats can be jammed simultaneously. Like Saab, Thales will use GaN technology because of its power and efficiency...

http://m.aviationweek.com/defense/new-avionics-gripen-typhoon-and-rafale


Air Force monthly Rafale Special
July 2017

...Formal development of the new Standard F4 will begin in 2018, but risk-reduction studies will be launched this year. “Standard F4 will be even more ambitious than F3R,” explained the programme director. “While F3R is mainly restricted to software upgrades, new hardware will be required for the far-reaching F4...

...GaN technology

Thales and the DGA are actively preparing the future radar developments that will be introduced on Standard F4.2, incorporating cutting-edge Gallium Nitride (GaN) technology for the radar and jammer antennas. Thanks to additional radar apertures, detection capabilities will be unmatched and electronic attack capabilities will become a reality. The programme director explained:

“Even though we are entirely satisfied with the current RBE2 AESA radar, we are already working on the next generation scheduled to appear on new-build aircraft in 2025. “For the same volume, GaN technology will offer an expanded bandwidth, more radiated power and an even easier ability to switch from one mode to another, or from one functionality to another.

With the same antenna, we will be capable of generating combined, interleaved radar, jamming and electronic warfare modes as part of an electronic attack mission. “GaN emitters will not be restricted to the radar and they will also equip the Spectra suite. For example, for the antennas in the wing apexes, ahead of the canard foreplanes, we could obtain a very quick emission/reception cycle, either saving some volume or augmenting radiated power...
http://www.f-16.net/forum/download/file.php?id=25484&sid=5fd71907ad137a02dcc17774fb7f7a09

It is in the future. What is there now? Bag of shit.

Even India is developing GaN radar for the future. In fact, India has UTTAM radar as of now which is about to be completed while SAAB has no AESA radar at all, not even older technology GaAs radar.

So, your point is still moot.

 

[Sancho]

You....indirectly ,

So I didn't. The rest is already proven wrong.

- there was no loophole, but rejection of Indian rules by Dassault
- Parrikar confirmed the same non compliance of Dassault as Antony did
- the 36 order is a separate deal and has nothing to do with MMRCA L2 rules
- GoI wanted the SE MMRCA after the cancellation of MMRCA, so they do want a larger order, but under their SP model and for more cost-effective MMRCAs

Just because you keep repeating false conclusion, doesn't make them true somehow.

 

[Sancho]

French lawmaker warns over judging the budget by its cover
13. Dec 2017

Deep doubts loom over the French defense budget despite what appears as good news for future spending on the military, said François Cornut-Gentille, a member of Parliament in the lower house National Assembly.

“The defense budget looks positive, but in reality there is great uncertainty,” he told a defense journalists association on Dec. 13. Cornut-Gentille sits on the Finance Committee and specializes in the defense sector.

There is a €1.8 billion (U.S. $2.1 billion) increase in the 2018 defense budget, which creates a positive impression and helps offset the €850 million cut in this year’s spending announced in July.

But there is €700 million “frozen” in this year’s defense funds, and it is unclear whether the Armed Forces Ministry will persuade the Economy and Finance Ministry to “unfreeze” all or part of that, he said. Equipment orders cannot be placed as long as the funds are withheld...

https://www.defensenews.com/global/...r-warns-over-judging-the-budget-by-its-cover/

Recap =>

Translated

DGA: Programs staggered following the cancellation of 850M € of payment credits

On October 18, 2017, Joël Barre , the Delegate General for Armaments, was heard by the Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs, Defense and Armed Forces on the 2018 Finance Bill...

...Several programs also had to be shifted. Joël Barre announces that negotiations are underway for the F4 Rafale standard . Reorganisations are planned but the launch of the program planned for the end of 2018 should not be delayed.

The delivery of the first renovated Mirage 2000D should be delayed by six months. It is scheduled for 2020...

...Finally, the acquisition of new generation missile departure detection equipment planned for the Rafale M range from standard F1 to F3 standard has also been shifted.

http://www.air-cosmos.com/dga-les-programmes-decales-en-2017-102509

 

[WolfPack86]

IAF INCHES CLOSER TO INDUCTING RAFALES, BUT HURDLES REMAIN
The Indian Air Force will send a batch of hand-picked pilots and technicians to train on the Rafale warplanes at the Mont-de-Marsan air base in southwestern France next year
India and France signed an $8.7-billion deal for two Rafale squadrons (36 planes) in September 2016 as an emergency purchase to arrest the worrying slide in the IAF’s capabilities
The Indian Air Force will send a batch of hand-picked pilots and technicians to train on the Rafale warplanes at the Mont-de-Marsan air base in southwestern France next year to prepare the ground for inducting its first imported fighter jets in 22 years.
It will be the responsibility of the Indian air crews to fly the first lot of the French fighters to the country, beginning September 2019.
The Russian Sukhoi-30 fighters were inducted in June 1997.
India and France signed an $8.7-billion deal for two Rafale squadrons (36 planes) in September 2016 as an emergency purchase to arrest the worrying slide in the IAF’s capabilities.
All 36 fighter planes will arrive by September 2022, a small step on the long road towards building a stronger air force.
India floated a global tender for 126 planes a decade ago but it stood cancelled after Prime Minister Narendra Modi declared in April 2015 India would buy 36 Rafales from France under a government-to-government deal.
Experts have warned that the smaller Rafale order falls short of the IAF’s requirement of medium-weight fighters. Top IAF officials said India could explore the possibility of buying two additional Rafale squadrons but there’s nothing on the table yet.
“The induction of the 36 Rafales will significantly improve the IAF’s capability but we have to get more fighters. Most definitely, we have to get the numbers,” said former IAF vice chief Air Marshal KK Nohwar, who is now the additional director general of Centre for Air Power Studies.
Numbers Game
The count of the IAF’s fighter squadrons has reduced to 33 compared to an optimum strength of 42-plus units required to fight a two-front war. Air Marshal PS Ahluwalia (Retd), a former Western Air Command chief, listed a combined threat from China and Pakistan as a top concern.
“It’s a serious issue that needs to be looked into,” he said, making a strong case for ordering 36 more Rafale fighters. In December 2016, then IAF chief Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha said the 36 Rafales on order were not enough and India needed around 200 such fighter jets for the expansion of its military capabilities.
The Chinese and Pakistani air forces operate 60 and 25 fighter squadrons respectively. Experts say a squadron-to-squadron comparison isn’t fair and what is more crucial is how many warplanes are available for missions at any given time, in air force parlance serviceability of a fleet.
The IAF’s fleet consists of 11 squadrons of ageing MiG-21 and MiG-27 fighters that will be retired in phases over the next five to six years. Su-30 fighters account for 13-plus squadrons but the fleet is plagued by engine troubles and is also battling poor serviceability. The remaining nine squadrons are a mix of Mirage 2000 fighters, Jaguars and MiG-29s.
Also, 32 more Sukhois are likely to be inducted by 2020.
The IAF was pegging hopes on a mix of new planes to hit the pause on the sharp drawdown of its fighter fleet, and eventually strengthen it. But the fate of some of these projects looks iffy.
India is yet to take a call on whether it should co-develop a stealth fighter with Russia, with the IAF having strong reservations about going ahead with the multi-billion dollar fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) project.
A plan to locally produce single-engine fighters in collaboration with a global defence contractor faces an uncertain future with the defence ministry treading cautiously as a single vendor situation might crop up, Hindustan Times has learnt. United States defence contractor Lockheed Martin and Swedish firm Saab are the only two companies exploring opportunities to build F-16s and Gripens in India. Another plan to build twin-engine fighters in collaboration with a foreign player remains on the drawing board.
IAF sources said the slow rate of production of the homegrown light combat aircraft, christened Tejas, is a reason to worry too. The IAF’s first Tejas squadron, raised in 2016, consists of only five planes. It eventually plans to deploy 123 such fighter jets.
The air force could take at least 15 years to deploy its authorised strength of 42 fighter squadrons.
“It’s the joke of the century that the Tejas squadron has only five fighters. At this rate, you can calculate when the IAF will get the 123 planes,” said Ahluwalia, who led the team that inducted French-origin Mirage 2000 fighters in 1984.
Hindustan Aeronautics Limited claims it is ready to produce eight Tejas aircraft per year and is ramping up the production rate to 16 planes by 2019-20 by investing Rs 1,331 crore. The HAL even claims it can deliver 16 to 24 jets 2021 onwards. It doesn't seem to be a realistic target, a source said.
“I don’t know where we will get the replacement for the MiG-21 and MiG-27 fighters. We need single-engine fighters swiftly. Also, there’s no use just having numbers, we need capability too in terms of precision weapons, cutting-edge avionics and superior situation awareness,” Ahluwalia said, arguing in favour of the single-engine procurement.
He said the twin-engine procurement should also be pursued to eventually replace Jaguars and MiG-29s.
It is crucial to strike a balance between pursuing Make in India projects and the compulsions of the Indian Air Force to address the desperate shortage of fighters, said strategic affairs expert Air Vice Marshal Kapil Kak (Retd).
“It’s absolutely imperative to induct 150 single-engine fighters for a two-front war or even a full-blown conflagration with our major neighbour (China),” the strategic affairs expert added.
http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2017/12/iaf-inches-closer-to-inducting-rafales.html

 

[Vinod DX9]

Work has started......Mahayagya going on

 

[BON PLAN]

True, but you also have to say why it needed it that early, because the RBE2 PESA couldn't keep up with the radars of the competition. It had more advanced technology, but was too small in size and not capable enough to compete with EFs Captor E, let alone US AESAs.
Not to mention that UAE demanded AESAS too, but found the RBE2 AESAS not good enough in comparison to the AGP 80 of their F16s. So having AESA radar technology, doesn't make Rafale automatically superior. Nor does it stay ahead, if no credible upgrades will be added. Still waiting for any official info on LEA btw.

Before the fall of the iron wall, Rafale was intended to enter in the force in 1996. AESA was not mature, for this end, so they developped a PESA interim solution (interim because all was studied so as to remove the PESA antenna with the AESA one in 2 hours. It's the case).
Unfortunately, the Rafale program was postponed.

RBE2 AESA and UAE : the first prototyp of RBE2 AESA used US components. These components alowed a 50% range increase, that was found too few by UAE, so a solution was to increase output power from 9.6Kw to 13 or 14Kw, but with a liquid cooling solution.
When the Europen active components were available, the range was increased not by 50%, but by 100% (thank you USA ...). It ravished the UAE. The water cooling solution was terminated.

I don't say that french AESA is superior to US one. But return from UAE said that RBE2 AESA is on par with F16 bk 60 radar.
But is superior to other European ones.
Why? 1) Because it run AESA until 5 years when the others are not IOC. 2) Because the software and data base developped, incremented and rafined until +/- 1995 on PESA are all used on AESA model. ie Rafale radar can use a 20 years data base and software, when the other are noob and only focused so far on air to air mode.

 

[Steven Rogers]

Before the fall of the iron wall, Rafale was intended to enter in the force in 1996. AESA was not mature, for this end, so they developped a PESA interim solution (interim because all was studied so as to remove the PESA antenna with the AESA one in 2 hours. It's the case).
Unfortunately, the Rafale program was postponed.

RBE2 AESA and UAE : the first prototyp of RBE2 AESA used US components. These components alowed a 50% range increase, that was found too few by UAE, so a solution was to increase output power from 9.6Kw to 13 or 14Kw, but with a liquid cooling solution.
When the Europen active components were available, the range was increased not by 50%, but by 100% (thank you USA ...). It ravished the UAE. The water cooling solution was terminated.

I don't say that french AESA is superior to US one. But return from UAE said that RBE2 AESA is on par with F16 bk 60 radar.
But is superior to other European ones.
Why? 1) Because it run AESA until 5 years when the others are not IOC. 2) Because the software and data base developped, incremented and rafined until +/- 1995 on PESA are all used on AESA model. ie Rafale radar can use a 20 years data base and software, when the other are noob and only focused so far on air to air mode.

Rafale aesa is not liquid cooled??

Sent from my Aqua Ace II using Tapatalk

 

[Sancho]

I don't say that french AESA is superior to US one. But return from UAE said that RBE2 AESA is on par with F16 bk 60 radar.

Not really, the UAE specifically asked for more detection range and additional A2G modes, which both could not be delivered at that time. The F3R now includes some radar upgrades to add A2G modes, but to get the required performance enhancement, the RBE 2 needs GaN and that's available only by 2025.

So radar certainly is not a prime factor for Rafale, neither in detection range, nor in FoV as explained earlier. It's the passive detection capabilities, that made it unique and sadly those are lost or not improved at all.

 

[Sancho]

Qatari Rafale

Note, FSO-IT without the IR channel

 

[Armand2REP]

Not really, the UAE specifically asked for more detection range and additional A2G modes, which both could not be delivered at that time. The F3R now includes some radar upgrades to add A2G modes, but to get the required performance enhancement, the RBE 2 needs GaN and that's available only by 2025.

So radar certainly is not a prime factor for Rafale, neither in detection range, nor in FoV as explained earlier. It's the passive detection capabilities, that made it unique and sadly those are lost or not improved at all.

Not really, at this point in the negotiations the current configuration meets the RFP, it is the pricing they are not happy with and Dassault has refused to budge.

 

[Kshithij]

Not really, at this point in the negotiations the current configuration meets the RFP, it is the pricing they are not happy with and Dassault has refused to budge.

UAE is negotiating hard for pricing? Damn!

Anyway, Sancho was speaking of initial discussions where RBE2 was not ready