Know Your 'Rafale'

[Sancho]

All who were claiming EF to be cheaper.... please explain this...

Different order, with lower numbers and different things that are included.
The only way to compare fighters from orders of different countries, is based on the flyaway cost and even here the EF normally must be more expensive.

But that has nothing to do with the controversy about the reduced EF cost for India. The issue was about why there was a single vendor deal for 36 Rafales, when the EF was technically suitable and the EF partners had proposed a reduced cost?

The general cost question was just raised by Congress, for political reasons.

 

[mayfair]

Just that all he is talking about, is the cost of the deal and the contract negotiations, "after" the deal was announced, not about the decision to order 36 and the procedures before the announcement, where MoD or the DM usually are involved.

It seems you are pulling facts out of your Musharraf again.

This is what Parrikar had to say

About the deal under the UPA, Parrikar said, “When the Prime Minister was signing the Rafale deal, one day prior to that we had an extensive meeting with the Air Force. We worked out the solution on how to come out of the logjam created by St Antony, (former) Defence Minister Antony, who was called saint. He had a very strange noting on the file. He said, ‘start discussion, finalise price and after everything is finished, please come back to me with all documentary evidence’ how Dassault, or the Rafale company, was the lowest.”

Parrikar pointed out that the Central Vigilance Commission guidelines say the government cannot negotiate with anyone other than the lowest. “If you have identified him (any company) as the lowest, you can negotiate. But how do you negotiate with someone and then prove that he was lowest? So…for two-and-a-half years, the file was going around in circles (under UPA). We broke the circle by deciding that we have to take a different approach.”

So a few things are clear

MoD was very much in the loop since it was they who suggested the route of G2G to break the St. Antony logjam. PM only signed the deal AFTER Raksha Mantri, Raksha Mantralaya and Vayusena suggsted so after exhausting all possibilities under the previous regime..

 

[Kshithij]

Giving you information to understand how much technology, they own that could be transfered and by admitting that they can join our radar, EW or Sub tenders, you already acknowledge that.

So assuming things is one thing, gaining real informations and then getting to a conclusion is another thing!

That btw is the same for the capability of both fighters, where you only assume Rafale is superior, obviously without informing yourself properly about the Gripen E, or the upgrades that Brazil brings.

Rafale F3R comes with a fixed AESA radar, no IRST, no HMS (customization by export customers), doesn't have GaN modules to improve SPECTRA as initially planned and has no low collateral damage weapon, or new AASM version with extended range or different weight class either.
Gripen E's AESA comes with the Selex repositioner, which increases the FoV to 200 degrees, compared to 120 of RBE2. It also has a Selex IRST, while the F3R uses MICA IR seeker with around 1/3rd the detection range. So both in active and passive detection capability, the F3R is in disadvantage!
The EW of Gripen E comes with RWR and jammers, based on GaN technology, with superior performance, than the GaAs in SPECTRA currently. Brazil chose Israeli IR MAWS, with at least 4, possibly 6 sensors around the airframe, while the F3R is limited to just 2 sensors on top of the tail, without proper sight below the fighter.
Sweden is integrating SDB quad packs, for low collateral damage strikes or SEAD, with load and range advantages over AASM 250 on the Rafale. Brazil is adding Israeli SPICE PGMs and their MAR 1 ARM for the same roles. Which adds up to superior CAS and SEAD capabilities. And last but not least, the Gripen comes with RBS15-ER which allows maritime or land attacks up to 200Km, far outclassing Exocet.

Rafales advantages are superior flight performance and deep strike roles with cruise missiles. Which makes it great for the strategic role, but in most other roles, or purely on technology and weapon variety it falls short today, once because Gripen E got much better thx to Brazil, but also because the F3R upgrade hardly adds new capabilities. Most of the real enhancements were pushed to the F4 in 2025, while it's competitors are catching up or even surpassing it in the meantime, at least compared to the French F3R version.


You brought it up and asking me now what difference it makes?
It gives us leverage over Dassault for penalties, in case the availability of the fleet false below agreed rates, caused by technical or support issues. We have the same agreement for MKIs now as well.



Check my post in the Kaveri thread.


As explained no, since GoI changed things, not IAF.

SAAB has nothing but airframe, avionics, EW and fly-by-wire. India has been in advanced stages of EW development and rest are already available.

This is not reasonable ToT.

 

[BON PLAN]

Qatar buys 12 rafale for 1.3 billion 109 million price tag for 1 plane. It seems like France reduce price of Rafale for second order. India must order additional 36 rafales. This moron prashant Bhushan even don't know that this is second order for Rafale from Qatar. Let this morons keep shouting and barking India must move on keep buying more Rafale.

In the french economic newspapers, the price is said to be 1.1 € billion for 12, ie 92 € million each.

The Indian price for the sole plane was nearly 95 € millions. It depend of the mix single/dual seaters. It's the exact price french air force is paying.

But I'm sure @Sancho will have something to oppose....

 

[BON PLAN]

That is untrue, India got a 36+18 option. You also already paid for two bases that supports twice as many aircraft as ordered.

No evidence of an option for India. Do you have some source?

 

[BON PLAN]

=>


http://www.moneycontrol.com/news/tr...alitypak-rafaleexport-bonanza-959919.html/amp


Yes we made the stupid decision to pay for infrastructure for 2 more Rafale squads, without really planing to buy them in the near term, because the government already took plans for the SE MMRCA tender at the same time, when they were fixing the 36 Rafale deal. So either we buy 2 more squads at some point, or that money for the infrastructure was a loss.

You never let all your eggs in the same basket.
Maybe you? But your are not and will never be a DM.

 

[Armand2REP]

No evidence of an option for India. Do you have some source?

I posted it in http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/know-your-rafale.32861/page-634#post-1382229

 

[BON PLAN]

Rafale F3R comes with a fixed AESA radar, no IRST, no HMS (customization by export customers), doesn't have GaN modules to improve SPECTRA as initially planned and has no low collateral damage weapon, or new AASM version with extended range or different weight class either.
Gripen E's AESA comes with the Selex repositioner, which increases the FoV to 200 degrees, compared to 120 of RBE2. It also has a Selex IRST, while the F3R uses MICA IR seeker with around 1/3rd the detection range. So both in active and passive detection capability, the F3R is in disadvantage!
The EW of Gripen E comes with RWR and jammers, based on GaN technology, with superior performance, than the GaAs in SPECTRA currently. Brazil chose Israeli IR MAWS, with at least 4, possibly 6 sensors around the airframe, while the F3R is limited to just 2 sensors on top of the tail, without proper sight below the fighter.
Sweden is integrating SDB quad packs, for low collateral damage strikes or SEAD, with load and range advantages over AASM 250 on the Rafale. Brazil is adding Israeli SPICE PGMs and their MAR 1 ARM for the same roles. Which adds up to superior CAS and SEAD capabilities. And last but not least, the Gripen comes with RBS15-ER which allows maritime or land attacks up to 200Km, far outclassing Exocet.

Rafales advantages are superior flight performance and deep strike roles with cruise missiles. Which makes it great for the strategic role, but in most other roles, or purely on technology and weapon variety it falls short today, once because Gripen E got much better thx to Brazil, but also because the F3R upgrade hardly adds new capabilities. Most of the real enhancements were pushed to the F4 in 2025, while it's competitors are catching up or even surpassing it in the meantime, at least compared to the French F3R version.

Repositioner is a solution not used by the father of modern AESA : USA. Explain me why? (=> useless. A gadget)

Rafale F3 has a real IRST. Indian Rafale F3R will have an indo french IRST. It's not because France don't need it (in fact don't want to unblock the money for) that there is no solution.

The Gripen E is not fully developped and far far from IOC not to speak of FOC but you, the famous Sancho, know that its EW will be better than those of a mature plane, with 20 years of dev behind it and 1/4 of the overall developpment cost of the Rafale program ! congrats.

F3R is the last avatar of the F3 (F3.1, F3.2, F3.3, F3 O4T). It mainly add Meteor and new laser pod. And pave the way for the real last step : F4. Nothing more to say.

SPICE 250 will be integrated soon on Rafale also (for India).

Rafale exists, is war proven, will received its 7th standard evolution. Gripen E had it's first flight 6 months ago. You want to compare a baby with a 25 years old gentleman ? Good luck.

 

[Sancho]

It seems you are pulling facts out of your Musharraf again.

You only need to understand your own source properly, because he is not talking about the 36 x Rafales, the whole section you quoted is about the MMRCA tender and "on how to come out of the logjam", which means the deadlock in the MMRCA negotiations!
That only confirms what was reported about Parrikar being clueless and we also know, that he wasn't the only minister in the NDA government, that was not informed:

Transcript of Media Briefing by Foreign Secretary on Prime Minister’s forthcoming visits to France, Germany and Canada (8 April 2015)

...Question:I just wanted to know whether we could expect some progress in the negotiations on the Rafale deal during Prime Minister Modi’s visit.

Question:Sir, is the Prime Minister likely to take a strong stand at the CEOs Forum on defence, especially with Dassault, as far as their conditions on Rafale are concerned?...

...Foreign Secretary (Dr. S. Jaishankar):
In terms of Rafale, my understanding is that there are discussions under way between the French company, our Ministry of Defence, the HAL which is involved in this. These are ongoing discussions. These are very technical, detailed discussions. We do not mix up leadership level visits with deep details of ongoing defence contracts. That is on a different track. A leadership visit usually looks at big picture issues even in the security field...

www.mea.gov.in/Speeches-Statements.htm?dtl/25044/Transcript+of+Media+Briefing+by+Foreign+Secretary+on+Prime+Ministers+forthcoming+visits+to+France+Germany+and+Canada+8+April+2015

Again, 1 day before the deal for 36 x Rafales were announced, the Indian Defence Minister and the Indian Foreign Secretary, were talking about the MMRCA tender and it's negotiations!!!

The fact that you quote different sections, than in your initial post, also shows, that you are grasping here. But as I said before, in the part aboit the 36 deal, Parrikar is only talking about the contract negotiations.

 

[Sancho]

SAAB has nothing but airframe, avionics, EW and fly-by-wire. India has been in advanced stages of EW development and rest are already available.

This is not reasonable ToT.

Well good that you acknowledge, that they do have more than you initially expected.
Yes we have own EW and own AESA or avionics development, but they are largely based on partnerships with Israeli companies. LCAs RWR, MKIs coming MAWS, LCA radars..., just as we already have Saab EW for Dhruv. The fact that we are searching for new EW parts for LCA MK1A shows, that we still have deficiencies and so far there is no other source available for GaN RWR and GaN SPJs than Saab. For the Mig 29 upgrade, we reportedly chose Italian GaAs RWRs (varients of the one EF uses) and there are several reports about the Rafale deal, that we replacing the French RWR. If true, they can't be a valid choice for LCA MK1A either.

So GaN EW techs alone would be great to have and a good addition for LCA or even MKI upgrades. You have seen the pic I posted from the Malaysian Su30 that is flying with more capable EW sensors for years and partially because of Saab.

 

[Kshithij]

Well good that you acknowledge, that they do have more than you initially expected.
Yes we have own EW and own AESA or avionics development, but they are largely based on partnerships with Israeli companies. LCAs RWR, MKIs coming MAWS, LCA radars..., just as we already have Saab EW for Dhruv. The fact that we are searching for new EW parts for LCA MK1A shows, that we still have deficiencies and so far there is no other source available for GaN RWR and GaN SPJs than Saab. For the Mig 29 upgrade, we reportedly chose Italian GaAs RWRs (varients of the one EF uses) and there are several reports about the Rafale deal, that we replacing the French RWR. If true, they can't be a valid choice for LCA MK1A either.

So GaN EW techs alone would be great to have and a good addition for LCA or even MKI upgrades. You have seen the pic I posted from the Malaysian Su30 that is flying with more capable EW sensors for years and partially because of Saab.

GaN radar is different from EW. EW is relatively simple. GaN is complicated. We don't need EW as it can be developed in a few years due to simplicity. GaN is something SAAB doesn't have. Damn, they don't even have GaAs. SAAB is pretty worthless in terms of ToT. Those who don't even have GaAs can't and shouldn't open their mouth about GaN

Don't mistake avionics for AESA or EW. Avionics is the display and processing unit where data if sensor is collated. Fly-by-wire is software to maintain efficient control of the plane.

SAAB has only basic technology. Fly-by-wire, avionics, airframe are basic. EW is also simple. The real technology is in GaN AESA and engine. Unless you can give me a source to say that SAAB has either of the two in working condition, please don't insist

 

[Sancho]

In the french economic newspapers, the price is said to be 1.1 € billion for 12, ie 92 € million each.

The Indian price for the sole plane was nearly 95 € millions. It depend of the mix single/dual seaters. It's the exact price french air force is paying.

But I'm sure @Sancho will have something to oppose....

Why should I? It's an option deal for Qatar and has nothing to do with the Indian offer, since it includes different things. And the cost of Rafale was never my concern anyway, but the low numbers and the bad industrial part of the Indian deal.

I'm even happy for morexample Rafale orders, the fighter deserves better, it Dassault that is limiting it.

Repositioner is a solution not used by the father of modern AESA : USA. Explain me why?

Because the primary benefit to AESA is, that the beam itself can be directed to different areas and doesn't need a mechanical system as in older radars. So a fixed AESA requires less moving parts, just as an AESA AWACS with 3 fixed arrays don't necessarily require a rotodome.
The alternative to extend the FoV for fighters, is adding side arrays as in the Su 57 and that's a possible solution planned for the Rafale future, but till then, the RBE 2 is in disadvantage in that regard.

Rafale F3 has a real IRST. Indian Rafale F3R will have an indo french IRST. It's not because France don't need it (in fact don't want to unblock the money for) that there is no solution.

Nope, the FSO IRST channel is out of production so far, neither new French or Egyptian Rafale have them. So far there is no confirmation about IRST for Indian Rafales and the last Air Force Monthly, stated FSO upgrades only for the F4.

F3R is the last avatar of the F3 (F3.1, F3.2, F3.3, F3 O4T). It mainly add Meteor and new laser pod.

Exactly, a poor upgrade of existing systems mainly. Only note worthy new parts are Meteor and Talios. The earlier is available for all Eurocanards, the latter is not ordered by any Rafale customer except France right?

 

[Sancho]

GaN radar is different from EW.

True, GaN for radar is mainly a cost issue, which is why moat nations remain with cost-effective GaAs for now, till it gets cheaper. But for smaller applications, like RWR and jammers, it's a huge improvement and modern air warfare is largely based in passive detection capabilities with advanced RWR, just as advanced jamming is crucial today. LCA in fact, would be more capable with an advanced EW and FSO, that with an AESA, because the small radar size will limit the performance anyway. Passive detection on the other side, offers longer ranges, larger FoVs and makes you less detectable too. That was the unique advantage of Rafale during MMRCA, but it sadly lost it's edge.

 

[mayfair]

That only confirms what was reported about Parrikar being clueless and we also know, that he wasn't the only minister in the NDA government, that was not informed:

No it doesn't. Once again you are conjuring up your own facts.

Again, 1 day before the deal for 36 x Rafales were announced, the Indian Defence Minister and the Indian Foreign Secretary, were talking about the MMRCA tender and it's negotiations!!!

The fact that you quote different sections, than in your initial post, also shows, that you are grasping here. But as I said before, in the part aboit the 36 deal, Parrikar is only talking about the contract negotiations.

Nope, you are the one grasping. The comment is by S Jaishankar, the FS. Nothing from Parrikar or any MoD spokesperson in the entire transcript.

Please also check the dates of the MeA briefing- April 8 2015.

The G2G deal to purchase Rafales were first agreed on January 26. Nearly NINE months after the MEA briefings.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...n-purchase-of-Rafale-jets/article14021230.ece

So it is entirely possible that in April 2015, GoI and MoD were still angling for MRCA to go through. The subsequent developments suggest that by January 26, 2016, there was no headway in the talks.

Now let us examine Parrikar's statements carefully.

“When the Prime Minister was signing the Rafale deal, one day prior to that we had an extensive meeting with the Air Force. We worked out the solution on how to come out of the logjam created by St Antony, (former) Defence Minister Antony, who was called saint.

Now when did PM sign the deal? Yes that's right- January 26, 2016. Which means that as per Parrikar
a day before the deal was signed, PM, MoD and IAF had "worked out the solution on how to come out of the logjam created by St Antony, (former) "

"We broke the circle by deciding that we have to take a different approach.”

So the then Raksha Matri clearly says "A different approach" and that clearly implies a shift away from MRCA.

Now if still you wish to stick to your claims about Parrikar being clueless, then that's your prerogative.

 

[sthf]

No it doesn't. Once again you are conjuring up your own facts.

Give it up mate. I have.

...................
...

 

[BON PLAN]

Exactly, a poor upgrade of existing systems mainly. Only note worthy new parts are Meteor and Talios. The earlier is available for all Eurocanards, the latter is not ordered by any Rafale customer except France right?

It's why it's called F3 XX, because it's the last iteration of the core standard of Rafale : F3, fully multirole.
If you say that adding Meteor is a poor iteration....

Talios may be ordered by India later (it was said some months ago). Let's see. As it is not operational, no one except France ordered it.

 

[Kshithij]

True, GaN for radar is mainly a cost issue, which is why moat nations remain with cost-effective GaAs for now, till it gets cheaper. But for smaller applications, like RWR and jammers, it's a huge improvement and modern air warfare is largely based in passive detection capabilities with advanced RWR, just as advanced jamming is crucial today. LCA in fact, would be more capable with an advanced EW and FSO, that with an AESA, because the small radar size will limit the performance anyway. Passive detection on the other side, offers longer ranges, larger FoVs and makes you less detectable too. That was the unique advantage of Rafale during MMRCA, but it sadly lost it's edge.

Look at this guy- he is claiming that GaN is not used due to cost! I am glad that this man didn't say that Alexander didn't use helicopters and machine guns due to cost!

There is a difference between ability and inability. It is not that just by giving money anything can be done. As of now, none has GaN technology in miniaturised form. SAAB doesn't even have GaN radar in prototype form

 

[TPFscopes]

In the french economic newspapers, the price is said to be 1.1 € billion for 12, ie 92 € million each.

The Indian price for the sole plane was nearly 95 € millions. It depend of the mix single/dual seaters. It's the exact price french air force is paying.

But I'm sure @Sancho will have something to oppose....

Rafale DH : €95mn approx
Rafale EH : €91mn approx

 

[WolfPack86]

Fighter planes cost comparssion.

 

[Sancho]

No it doesn't. Once again you are conjuring up your own facts.

Say the one that left out the important part=>

About the deal under the UPA, Parrikar said,“When the Prime Minister was signing the Rafale deal, one day prior to that we had anextensive meeting with the Air Force...