Know Your 'Rafale'

[Blackwater]

An interesting development missed from all the noise is HOW exactly is Dassault going to be able to produce and supply 36 IAF specific versions of the aircraft in 2 years time when their current production is by all accounts unable to do so. For info:

Dassault currently produces Rafales at a rate of 11 per annum...this is the MINIMUM economically viable number to ensure the production line is kept open as long as possible. In this number they are producing for 4 different "versions" of the aircraft, the single and tandem seat Rafale C and same for Rafale M, both in pre-set quantities every year to supply to French AF and Navy.

The party was spoiled so to speak by Egypt, who ordered 24 birds to be supplied (exactly like we want) in immediate, ready to fly configuration. The French AF "generously" agreed to give up aircraft destined for its squadrons to fulfill this order. IE, Egypt will get essential standard un-customized versions built to French specifications. Dassault will in fact have to carry out some stealthy surgery on the planes to remove sensitive electronics and comms related to the Nuclear Strike role that the Rafale fulfills in their service.

All this jugglery is done for a simple reason, Dassault cannot overnight raise the production numbers. For the foreseeable future it will continue to make only 11 planes a year. To raise production it has to signal to a number of subcontractors about its intent and place orders for so called long lead items, sometimes years in advance. So even if, to fulfill both Egyptian and Indian orders quickly, Dassault plans to raise its production to say 15 a year in the near term, it wont be able to realistically hit that target for at least a couple of years. And remember also that a drastic increase in production would require it to hire extra manpower, which will have to be trained etc before it can be deployed. Its reasonable to assume that Dassault will not break the bank, any rapid step up in production will only be temporary as after the 2 current export orders finish it has to wind down to 11 a year again as per the current status quo.

So we come back to the original point...WHERE are the Indian birds going to come from? Is the French AF going to essentially sacrifice ALL of its slots in the next 2 years? That still means only 12 aircraft will be available for the Indian order ( out of 22 scheduled, 6 for Egypt, 4 for French Navy which cant be switched to AF version due to differences in design)....So either, the French AF is planning to LOAN 24 birds out of its own inventory to India temporarily OR Dassault has been preparing for this order for at least a year before to rapidly ramp up production. Lets consider both options:

- Will the French AF loan its own birds? Perhaps...its shown with the Egypt order a willingness to compromise for the greater good. However there are fundamental problems. Their birds are mostly F1 and F2 type, NOT the new F3 which the IAF wants. They are also set up for French conditions and pilots, so will have to undergo major work to both bring them up to F3 standard and "tropicalise" them. Also they will need english controls hahaha. So this option seems far off

- Dassault has prepared for this. This is intriguing...people here and elsewhere mention Qatar which has wanted 36 birds for a while now. Could we be taking "their slots"? Not likely, For Qatar birds to be already in the pipeline an order would have had to be placed a while ago. But all indications int he last 3 years have been that Qatar has been stonewalling Dassault. Only VERY recently has talk of that order resurfaced but only in the sense that the Qataris were ready to listen to offers again. Nowhere close to placing any orders. So it may be pure coincidence that the number of 36 planes is matching. So where does that leave us? With the rather naughty possibility that this whole thing has been stage managed by the GOI since it got into power. Remember that the Dassault delegation was one of the first to have formal talks to the Modi govt out of all foreign vendors and many rounds of intense and closed door negotiations have been conducted in the year since. Could it be possible that somewhere along the line, the idea of Off the Shelf purchase (which Dassault offered in 2006 remember) was put back on the table and gained favor? Seems likely that negotiations have been going on formulating the commercial terms but with Dassault already being signaled to prepare for imminent orders they may have already ramped up their supply chain. The "announcement" now becomes a show piece, a cornerstone to mark a long planned trip to a key ally to bolster a visit that would otherwise have been devoid of much meat (aside from Rafale there really isnt much in terms of blockbuster dealing in this trip).

So if we see Dassault suddenly pumping out 24 birds a year till 2018, we know what happened.

Wo Dassualt ha HAL ya DRDO nahi

 

[uoftotaku]

Wo Dassualt ha HAL ya DRDO nahi

Yaar while I always appreciate any jokes at expense of our hapless babu's...I must ask...did you read even the rest of that sentence? let alone the rest of the post?...Dassault is Dasault but even they cant wave a baguette and suddenly produce 36 jets with prayers and pixie dust...

 

[Blackwater]

Yaar while I always appreciate any jokes at expense of our hapless babu's...I must ask...did you read even the rest of that sentence? let alone the rest of the post?...Dassault is Dasault but even they cant wave a baguette and suddenly produce 36 jets with prayers and pixie dust...

well serious answer to your Q is earlier dassualt never had enough orders to make but now 24 Egypt and 36 ours they gonna role double shift in their factory

 

[sgarg]

@uoftotaku, I think French can make far more if the orders are there. However there will be a lead time. Maybe two years is the lead time for first batch. The total delivery may still take up to four years.

If IAF gets 36 in four years, I think IAF bosses will be happy. This leaves IAF happy and content for some time and GOI can focus on Tejas etc.

 

[sathya]

Total production capacity I think is around 30 per year. 11 for France remaining 19 per year for exports..

Egyptian + Indian orders = 60 can be covered in 3 years approx once production reaches full capacity..

 

[Punya Pratap]

No way possible. First of all dassault has to sell the jets to all other countries to earn profit .

SO they would never agree to less than the revised l1 rates and stuff like TOT, guarantee.

thats why the govt has finally decided to bring in a closure on this scam ridden tender called MMRCA.

Now the MMRCA CNC and dassault can negotiate forever. reality is if they dont reach any favorable decision by the end of 36 rafale delivery and tejas mk2 and FGFA start production then they can quietly wind up and say good bye. thats what going to happen. because already modi govt is spending considerable political capital by going against the grain of Make in india campaign by renging even on a foreclosed make in india deal called MMRCA.

And they will unlikely to pander more for IAF whims. SO like mirage-2000 rafale is going to be a niche buy , and in a decade will be overshadowed by FGFA, it is not going to be the prime fighter of IAF after 2030.

They are doing this deal primarily to cut the backlash from french on the MMRCA failure and keep the strategic relationship afloat.

SO all the criticism of guys like Bharath karnard about this scam tender MMRCA(which releases L1 from holding the rates till financial closure is over!!!) is perfectly valid. And guys like Subramanium Swamy were not beating uselss trumpets on this MMRCA scam of endless evaluations by IAF and endless negotiations by MOD's CNC.

To put things into perspective MMRCA tender was floated in 2004, now eleven years later it was not even finished.

but tejas first flew on 2001 on an untested fly by wire tech, now in serial production by 2015!!!

BUt IAF and MOD can't even finish their evaluations and negotiations on a simple off the shelf buy!!!!

But no retd Chairmrashal who complains forever in delays of tejas project in those fart fests called vayu start post conferences , will even open his mouth about this.

In reality MMRCA tender is just another one in the long line of coalgate, 2G, ISRO Davos , common wealth , with financial interests of every one involved in primary and national interest only at the periphery.

What was the purpose of designating some one as L2 and not calling him for negotiation even after L1 increases prices substantially and reneges on all original RFP clauses regarding TOT, timeline, Guarantee and price that couldn't be resolved even after 4 years of negotiation at the highest level?

Now the govt is just keeping the strategic relation ship with france with this piece meal buy, because Parrikar's Su-30 MKI upgraded could replace the rafael is a clear indication that IAF's rafale or nothing and No plan B if rafale fails is just a white lie.

now 36(max possible 63) rafaels wont lift the skies in any future conflict considering the combined numbers of PLAf and PAF.

SO if any significant fleet numbers are needed we have to depend on tejas mk1, mk2 and Su-30 MKI upgraded, which proves parrikar right.

Thats why even today parrikar is saying,"after the initial purchase of 36 Rafale aircraft, the country will have more such planes under "Make in India initiative or Rafale kind of mechanism.""

More such planes could be rafales if dassault relents or extra Su-30 MKI,which can do the job as per Parrikar's earlier comments.

So what is now being operationalised is the much derided plan B.

You of all the people know my stand on the Rafale deal which I have opposed since day one coz

1) ToT is always an eyewash which is a pretty good way of taking India for a ride as proved by T90 and Su 30 MKI.

2) I said it earlier and repeat it again-we don't have a proper method of deriving the pricing for such deals and no wonder L1 costing is proving to be expensive may be more than L2

3) IAF soured the deal and are themselves to be blamed. ... you do not try to undermine your own Government by saying there is no Option B which only makes the OEM play hard ball.

4) The entire method was wrong as L2 should have been given the opportunity to step in if L1 fails to stand on the clauses instead now the entire deal has to start afresh and retendered.

5) I have opposed this deal coz IAF had vested interest in proccuring Rafale and are shooting out FGFA and Tejas!!

 

[Armand2REP]

Yaar while I always appreciate any jokes at expense of our hapless babu's...I must ask...did you read even the rest of that sentence? let alone the rest of the post?...Dassault is Dasault but even they cant wave a baguette and suddenly produce 36 jets with prayers and pixie dust...

The production line is made for 28 p/y and can be doubled in 6 months. If ALA has to delay our own orders, it would actually make the MoD budget happy. Lack of production is not the problem, it has always been demand which we now have.

 

[smestarz]

This was a Brilliant move by GoI in one swoop they managed many things
A) fullfilled the "urgent" requirement of IAF (2 squadrons)
B) Managed to save the future of Tejas / AMCA / FGFA
C) Got a big price discount by doing business direct with France (because somehow France wanted to sell off the planes that it has committed to with Dassault and would lose if they buy it (cost of using and maintaining) or else pay the penalty of not buying.
D) Avoided the hassles and delays due to ToT and content of it

But one problem is that we would not be able to put our content in Rafale it will be french content,
Would tbe plane be F3R or which version?

The deal of 36 Rafales has not been signed yet. But seems its more or less signed unless there is something major

Also in doing so, he also ensured French support for UNSC

 

[smestarz]

You of all the people know my stand on the Rafale deal which I have opposed since day one coz

1) ToT is always an eyewash which is a pretty good way of taking India for a ride as proved by T90 and Su 30 MKI.

2) I said it earlier and repeat it again-we don't have a proper method of deriving the pricing for such deals and no wonder L1 costing is proving to be expensive may be more than L2

3) IAF soured the deal and are themselves to be blamed. ... you do not try to undermine your own Government by saying there is no Option B which only makes the OEM play hard ball.

4) The entire method was wrong as L2 should have been given the opportunity to step in if L1 fails to stand on the clauses instead now the entire deal has to start afresh and retendered.

5) I have opposed this deal coz IAF had vested interest in proccuring Rafale and are shooting out FGFA and Tejas!!

YES, that makes L2 same as having been rejected in first round itself,
I think the GoI realizes that the procurement system is flawed and will make ways to make it more concrete.

 

[sgarg]

YES, that makes L2 same as having been rejected in first round itself,
I think the GoI realizes that the procurement system is flawed and will make ways to make it more concrete.

News coming out now that UPA under Anthony allowed MMRCA financial bids to lapse. If that is true, then MMRCA tender is dead ANYWAY. There is no way to revive it.

 

[sgarg]

Ignorant people keep on forgetting that price is key in an open tender. Price once quoted cannot be changed at the drop of a hat.

 

[Punya Pratap]

How Narendra Modi reworked Rafale deal, and why it's a winner
Published April 12, 2015 | By admin
SOURCE : TNN



Two themes dominated Prime Minister Narendra Modi's decision to do an outright buy of 36 Rafale fighter aircraft from France — national security and cutting through bureaucratic red tape. In the processIndia was able to get better terms for the fighters, which has been hanging fire for the past few years.

The Indian Air Force has been raising red flags over the appalling lack of India's defence preparedness for some time. But this time, the Air chief received a sympathetic hearing from the PM. While it was the same shortcoming that had prompted the Rafale deal in the first place, the subsequent tortuous negotiations meant that the deal had less and less chances of going through.

Between the Dassault-HAL mistrust, looming liability issues that Dassault flagged for the 108 aircraft supposed to be built in India, and rising lifecycle costs for the aircraft, it was threatening to become one of those famous defence quagmires that have regularly bedeviled Indian defence procurement. India was not only in danger of not getting the Rafale, but not getting anything else either because nobody would be able to actually scrap the deal without incurring penalties. It would have been a festering sore that would have impacted India-France relations.

Modi's pact ensured better price for Rafale jets

Late last year, the Indian government decided to look at other options on how to get the necessary aircraft without raising hackles or having the deal questioned. The Modi government decided to cut through the red tape, which included everything from offset rules to pricing. Abandoning the 'Make in India' mantra for 36 planes, Modi was able to do two things.

First get a better price from France for the 36 planes because they are a direct G2G buy and do not involve technology transfer. Secondly, there was also no question of going back to the drawing board to re-issue the RFP (Request for Proposal) which would have added to the delay and could attract unnecessary criticism, political opposition and allegations of corruption, which this government is keen to avoid.

A national security assessment also highlighted the growing uncertainty in India's neighbourhood– not only with its traditional challenges of China and Pakistan, but the growing instability in India's western neighbourhood. An aggressive China could also be unpredictable and any potential conflict with India's northern neighbour would be all about air power.

China, because of its arms embargo, cannot access the kind of weapons that India can – but in the past few years, Beijing has ramped up its fighter aircraft production with a lot of help from Russia. With its deep pockets and near absent bureaucratic delays on defence production, China would soon have an unbeatable edge over India.

Meanwhile, Dassault itself was having problems, until they got a shot in the arm with Egypt ordering 24 Rafale jets off the shelf in February for $5.9 billion, a much higher price than negotiated by India for 126 aircraft. This gave them the ability to continue negotiations with India while they worked on the Egypt order. It would mean that India would add several years to its already long waiting period to get the aircraft. In the meantime, Indian Air Force would continue its downward spiral.

French defence minister Jean-Yves Le Drian visited India in December and in February after India indicated it would seriously relook at overcoming the hurdles for Rafale. India sent a number of teams to France to complete the negotiations in time for the PM's visit. As in the India-US nuclear deal, negotiations went down to the wire, with Indian officials negotiating the minutiae of the deal as late as late last week.

The order for 36 jets, double the original number, was used by the government to drive a harder bargain with France. The government was persuaded to pressure Dassault to fast track delivery, and secure better terms for servicing and maintenance besides spares. The political heavy lifting was spearheaded by the PM, including the internal decision to slice away at the red tape.

Sources said the earlier deal on 108 aircraft to be manufactured in India still stands and would be renegotiated with Dassault incorporating the new terms agreed on. It's not yet clear whether government entity HAL would be the Indian manufacturer or whether with the liberalized defence production norms, it could be someone else. For the moment, India will continue to hold the French feet to the fire for swift delivery of the aircraft.

The government has already announced the two new squadrons would be inducted into the IAF in two years.
The India-France joint statement said the order for the 36 jets would be "on terms that would be better than conveyed by Dassault Aviation as part of a separate process underway".

 

[Punya Pratap]

Rafale story far from over; Govt to keep HAL in the loop
Published April 12, 2015 | By admin
SOURCE: Dr Anantha Krishnan M / ONE INDIA



Thirty-six Rafale jets for the plane-deprived Indian Air Force (IAF) from Dassault Aviation! That's buzz all around since last night after Prime Minister Narendra Modi sprang yet another surprise. Finally, the much-hyped mother of all deals jettisoned out of the red-tape-trap, with even the number 36 surprising many.

Plane pundits are already out with many theories, with some even wondering the 'logic' behind going for such a small order, which is just enough to fill only two Squadrons. But, those who saw the Rafale script from close quarters confirm to OneIndia that the story is far from over. Any more surprises on this front? "Can't predict," they say.

HAL will be kept in the loop Sources confirm that the Modi government is in no mood to push Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) away, despite a strong private lobby wanting it to be out of the Rafale frame. "Any additional orders for Rafales will have to be via the Make in India route and it will be HAL who will be manufacturing the same. The private sector too will be roped in subsequently," an official in the Ministry of Defence (MoD) said.

When asked about the fate of various Price Negotiation Committees (PNCs) looking into the 126 MMRCA deal, the official said: "Some clarity will emerge in the next one month." The official said that the government was 'aware of the implications' it would face following its decision to take the direct purchase route. "It was expected that many would see it as a stand away from the Make in India policy. The numbers (36) should be seen as a pointer towards the government's thought process. Private industries and HAL will play a significant role in the new scheme of things set to unfold," the official said.

When asked whether RFP process in which Dassault Aviation has emerged as an L-1 stands nullified now, the official refused to comment. Fate of RFP a closed chapter: Matheswaran Reacting to the deal, Air Marshal M Matheswaran (Retd), former Deputy Chief of the Integrated Defence Staff (Policy, Planning and Development), IAF and currently an Advisor to HAL, told OneIndia the government's was keen to find a quick solution.

"The PNCs are good if they find a logical solution. In my personal opinion the RFP is a closed chapter now. I am sure the government will take a fresh call. All the future moves will be linked to Make in India, ToT (Transfer of Technology), production standards, delivery schedules and HAL's role," says Matheswaran. He had played a significant role when the IAF decided to go for the MMRCAs.

"The fate of the RFP (for the 126 Rafales as per the original tender now estimated around $20 billion) is now in the hands of the government. Plugging the gap was the key. The government could go in for any aircraft now which can fit into the Make in India plan," says the former IAF official, now a leading think-tank on military matters. Govt got some breathing space now When asked about the allegations that 'HAL will not be in a position to roll out quality Rafales,' Matheswaran said that the premier aerospace company has been delivering different types of aircraft over the years.

"The vendor has no business to raise the issue at the end of the negotiation. Yes, I am for a good private eco system coming up for the benefit of aviation in India," Matheswaran said. He said the decision to buy 36 Rafales in a fly-away was purely to strengthen the strategic partnership with the France.

'It's a G-to-G decision and we have had the Mirages-2000s coming in the same format 30 years back," he added. He said the government has got some breathing space now with the decision to go in for 36 fighters. "There's some room to move around. The freedom to take new decisions," Matheswaran added.

He said that the Dassault has the capability to deliver all the 36 Rafales to IAF in the next two years. HAL's Bangalore Complex warms up to Rafale HAL insiders say that the Company has gone some distance in handling a new fighter plane and associated technologies.

HAL's famed Bangalore Complex, which has manufactured many flying platforms in the last seven decades, has already warmed up to the Rafales. "We have spent lot of time in the last five years. Much before the Make in India concept came, we were prepared to handle a new platform. It is now certain that the IAF will go for more Rafales. We have held series of consultations with Dassault and many of our engineers have gone to their facilities has well," an official said.

When asked about the built-quality concerns, the official said, "It's unfair to rake up a scenario before we reach there. There could have been instances of quality concerns in the past, but Bangalore Complex's recent track record in delivering Hawks needs to be factored in." OneIndia has confirmed that HAL Chairman T Suvarna Raju is among the delegates accompanying Modi during the current Paris trip

 

[Armand2REP]

Ignorant people keep on forgetting that price is key in an open tender. Price once quoted cannot be changed at the drop of a hat.

Price once quoted is set in base year price which adjusts for inflation, currency fluctuations and material costs, don't surprised when it goes up double digits years later. That's what happens when papers don't get signed. The real issue was never price, Dassault simply doesn't trust HAL and GOI wouldn't let them select Reliance.

 

[Punya Pratap]

Price once quoted is set in base year price which adjusts for inflation, currency fluctuations and material costs, don't surprised when it goes up double digits years later. That's what happens when papers don't get signed. The real issue was never price, Dassault simply doesn't trust HAL and GOI wouldn't let them select Reliance.

Armand the cost negotiations were flawed from Day 1 and not something that is due to the currency fluctuations or rising costs. The costing (Unit price + Life cycle costs + supporting equipment and spares) was not calculated properly and left out crucial components which were added later when the deal reached the final stages.

We all realise that had the previous government not allowed the financial bids to lapse the costing would have been frozen with a little leeway for currency fluctuations and rising costs for raw materials. If you think that these were the only reasons why the cost for the deal has more than doubled in the past three years than you are sadly mistaken coz India's economy is on an upward spiral and the rupee is set to keep improving against the dollar. By the way one reason given by Dassault for the rising unit cost is that it thinks with HAL the man hours needed to manufacture a unit will be higher and hence the higher price. I wonder whether Dassault is saying that they will not assist in setting up the production line where Dassault will SHOW - HAL how to build a plane which is the whole idea of the Make in India. We need not only the Tech but also the Manufacturing methods. Secondly I think Dassault should also visit the Bangalore complex where they are manufacturing Hawk AJT's as my previous post says .... it has incorporated Best Manufacturing Practices under the instructions of Bae and same is the role Dassault is supposed to play! I am worried the attitude of Dassault is that it wants ONLY Reliance as a partner and will play hardball with anybody else!!

 

[Rashna]

How Narendra Modi reworked Rafale deal, and why it's a winner



NEW DELHI: Two themes dominated Prime Minister Narendra Modi's decision to do an outright buy of 36 Rafale fighter aircraft from France — national security and cutting through bureaucratic red tape. In the process, India was able to get better terms for the fighters, which has been hanging fire for the past few years.

The Indian Air Force has been raising red flags over the appalling lack of India's defence preparedness for some time. But this time, the Air chief received a sympathetic hearing from the PM. While it was the same shortcoming that had prompted the Rafale deal in the first place, the subsequent tortuous negotiations meant that the deal had less and less chances of going through.

Between the Dassault-HAL mistrust, looming liability issues that Dassault flagged for the 108 aircraft supposed to be built in India, and rising lifecycle costs for the aircraft, it was threatening to become one of those famous defence quagmires that have regularly bedeviled Indian defence procurement.

READ ALSO: Rafale deal is 'oxygen' for IAF, Parrikar says

India was not only in danger of not getting the Rafale, but not getting anything else either because nobody would be able to actually scrap the deal without incurring penalties. It would have been a festering sore that would have impacted India-France relations.

Modi's pact ensured better price for Rafale jets

Late last year, the Indian government decided to look at other options on how to get the necessary aircraft without raising hackles or having the deal questioned. The Modi government decided to cut through the red tape, which included everything from offset rules to pricing. Abandoning the 'Make in India' mantra for 36 planes, Modi was able to do two things.

First get a better price from France for the 36 planes because they are a direct G2G buy and do not involve technology transfer. Secondly, there was also no question of going back to the drawing board to re-issue the RFP (Request for Proposal) which would have added to the delay and could attract unnecessary criticism, political opposition and allegations of corruption, which this government is keen to avoid.



A national security assessment also highlighted the growing uncertainty in India's neighbourhood-- not only with its traditional challenges of China and Pakistan, but the growing instability in India's western neighbourhood. An aggressive China could also be unpredictable and any potential conflict with India's northern neighbour would be all about air power.

China, because of its arms embargo, cannot access the kind of weapons that India can - but in the past few years, Beijing has ramped up its fighter aircraft production with a lot of help from Russia. With its deep pockets and near absent bureaucratic delays on defence production, China would soon have an unbeatable edge over India.

READ ALSO: Direct purchase of 36 fighters will alter original Rafale deal

Meanwhile, Dassault itself was having problems, until they got a shot in the arm with Egypt ordering 24 Rafale jets off the shelf in February for $5.9 billion, a much higher price than negotiated by India for 126 aircraft. This gave them the ability to continue negotiations with India while they worked on the Egypt order. It would mean that India would add several years to its already long waiting period to get the aircraft. In the meantime, Indian Air Force would continue its downward spiral.

French defence minister Jean-Yves Le Drian visited India in December and in February after India indicated it would seriously relook at overcoming the hurdles for Rafale. India sent a number of teams to France to complete the negotiations in time for the PM's visit. As in the India-US nuclear deal, negotiations went down to the wire, with Indian officials negotiating the minutiae of the deal as late as late last week.


French President Francois Hollande (right) listens to Prime Minister Narendra Modi's speech (centre) during an official dinner in his honor at the Elysee Palace in Paris, on April 10, 2015. French Prime Minister Manuel Valls (left) is also seen. (AFP photo)

The order for 36 jets, double the original number, was used by the government to drive a harder bargain with France. The government was persuaded to pressure Dassault to fast track delivery, and secure better terms for servicing and maintenance besides spares. The political heavy lifting was spearheaded by the PM, including the internal decision to slice away at the red tape.


Sources said the earlier deal on 108 aircraft to be manufactured in India still stands and would be renegotiated with Dassault incorporating the new terms agreed on. It's not yet clear whether government entity HAL would be the Indian manufacturer or whether with the liberalized defence production norms, it could be someone else. For the moment, India will continue to hold the French feet to the fire for swift delivery of the aircraft.

The government has already announced the two new squadrons would be inducted into the IAF in two years.
The India-France joint statement said the order for the 36 jets would be "on terms that would be better than conveyed by Dassault Aviation as part of a separate process underway".

How Narendra Modi reworked Rafale deal, and why it’s a winner - The Times of India

Mod: Please don't report without citing source. Preferably provide source and only quote relevant excerpts.

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

China is already filling up that role and would do more so in future as it can afford to supply regular arms. India on the other hand needs to catch up on the big defence market.

china dosent und the russian arms industry

what china does is buys a dozen pieces then reverse engineers them

now russia will obviouslly sell to india rather than china

 

[Armand2REP]

Armand the cost negotiations were flawed from Day 1 and not something that is due to the currency fluctuations or rising costs. The costing (Unit price + Life cycle costs + supporting equipment and spares) was not calculated properly and left out crucial components which were added later when the deal reached the final stages.

The only two contenders to make it to the L1 stage were Eurofighter and Rafale, if you are telling me Rafale is more expensive to operate than EF, i have a Guchi bag from China to sell you.

We all realise that had the previous government not allowed the financial bids to lapse the costing would have been frozen with a little leeway for currency fluctuations and rising costs for raw materials. If you think that these were the only reasons why the cost for the deal has more than doubled in the past three years than you are sadly mistaken coz India's economy is on an upward spiral and the rupee is set to keep improving against the dollar. By the way one reason given by Dassault for the rising unit cost is that it thinks with HAL the man hours needed to manufacture a unit will be higher and hence the higher price. I wonder whether Dassault is saying that they will not assist in setting up the production line where Dassault will SHOW - HAL how to build a plane which is the whole idea of the Make in India. We need not only the Tech but also the Manufacturing methods. Secondly I think Dassault should also visit the Bangalore complex where they are manufacturing Hawk AJT's as my previous post says .... it has incorporated Best Manufacturing Practices under the instructions of Bae and same is the role Dassault is supposed to play! I am worried the attitude of Dassault is that it wants ONLY Reliance as a partner and will play hardball with anybody else!!

You are making this Rs. vs USD which is not accurate as the US dollar has skyrocketed against both currencies. The pricing is done Rs. v Euro and that price has not doubled much less tripled. The deal struck is in accordance with the MMRCA pricing structure, given that it is years later. I think MMRCA is in the trash bin and Dassault should just deliver the ordered planes and not look at HAL ever again. They clearly don't trust them and think their production and quality control practices are on the level of babu like efficiency. There is too much bureaucracy and lack of accountability to do business with them on a project as complex as Rafale. This is not some simple trainer, this is a cutting edge high precision fighter that needs PRIVATE industry to avoid babus entanglements and corruption.

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

Remember guys when you go on a foreign trip as the head of the political establishment you go with a well prepared strategy that covers for every scenario. I assume that is what has happened on the Rafale deal fir 36 jets which are just enough for 2 squads.. now had this deal been full and final deal then there would have been more jets including trainers and reserves. So my educated guess is that this is a stop gap arrangement and now we shall negotiate for the remaining 90 Rafale to be made in India under ToT. IAF will not cry over loosing the numbers game and GoI can spend another year mulling over the fine print before it decides to sign. I assume MoD knows something that we don't and it could possibly also be regarding the pricing and allocation of funds for the jets assuming the 7 plus growth rate stays on course so that the govt has the money to spare.

Also noticable is that the French have given us a better price compared to the Egyptians. That can only be possible when the French have been informed that there's more jets to be ordered/MMRCA to be signed and Secondly the French have atleast shown by this deal that they have decided to negotiate on the pricing so the MAKE IN INDIA Rafale shall not hopefully cost us a bomb!! Rest assured thethise Rafale deal is alive And kicking. !!!

therre is not talk of rpicing

only better terms than those offered under MMRCA

 

[Punya Pratap]

The only two contenders to make it to the L1 stage were Eurofighter and Rafale, if you are telling me Rafale is more expensive to operate than EF, i have a Guchi bag from China to sell you.



You are making this Rs. vs USD which is not accurate as the US dollar has skyrocketed against both currencies. The pricing is done Rs. v Euro and that price has not doubled much less tripled. The deal struck is in accordance with the MMRCA pricing structure, given that it is years later. I think MMRCA is in the trash bin and Dassault should just deliver the ordered planes and not look at HAL ever again. They clearly don't trust them and think their production and quality control practices are on the level of babu like efficiency. There is too much bureaucracy and lack of accountability to do business with them on a project as complex as Rafale. This is not some simple trainer, this is a cutting edge high precision fighter that needs PRIVATE industry to avoid babus entanglements and corruption.

See the first statement of yours itself has no value as per the MMRCA competition so EF even though it was L2 has no way of stepping in if L1 fails. If you think I am wrong in my assessment that the entire MMRCA contract was badly managed then I cant help you. Rafale's costing per unit was flawed and it has been accepted that the situation arose due to lack of expertise in calculating ALL the components which were left out in the initial costing.

IT is nt about Rupee versus the rest as I was trying to illustrate that was the reason behind the increased cost and you are still not getting the point. I menat that it was nt due to economical factors that the costing has increased to more than the double quoted earlier. You think the Def Min is illiterate and does nt know when an OEM that has been selected is trying to change the pricing based on factors other than economical. Mr Parrikar is a technocrat who understands acquisitions and theory of Life Cycle costs better than the other Def Ministers we have had and he was clearly irritated to the point that he very bluntly read the Riot Act to Dassault and told them to stick to the RFP and its terms of costing which clearly defines that the cost per unit for the jet has to include all and necessary equipments and spares along with the fact that HAL will be the LEAD PRODUCTION AGENCY.

If Dassault had issues with HAL and its ability to produce than they should have stayed out of the tender and not wasted the time and energy!! The first condition of bidding on a Tender is to abide by the rules set by the tender and you cannot change it later on to suit yourself. For me its not a question whether HAL can deliver but its a question that whether Dassault is willing to stick to the RFP and its terms there off. If they dont then the MMRCA deal is Dassault's to loose. Even Def Min has hinted the same in the above post where he said the following :

Thats why even today parrikar is saying,"after the initial purchase of 36 Rafale aircraft, the country will have more such planes under "Make in India initiative or Rafale kind of mechanism.""

Kindy note he says Rafale kind of mechanism...not RAFALE ONLY!!