Know Your 'Rafale'

[PaliwalWarrior]

exactly hal has screwd even quality of mki and even they are falling from sky , dis invest this useless psu

Well CAG says that

more than 40% of crashes of IAF are due to HE - human error i.e. Pilots, Ground Staff, Maintenance - BRD of IAF - BLAM with IAF cannot be passed on to HAL

less than 40% of crashes of IAF are due to technical errors - blame can be passed on to HAL - manufacturer

 

[Lone Ranger]

Well CAG says that

more than 40% of crashes of IAF are due to HE - human error i.e. Pilots, Ground Staff, Maintenance - BRD of IAF - BLAM with IAF cannot be passed on to HAL

less than 40% of crashes of IAF are due to technical errors - blame can be passed on to HAL - manufacturer

up untill mkis were delivered from russia no crashes no faults spotted ever since hal started assembling crashed happen volah , no problems yet with mirage 2k delivered from france, hal is the problem

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

up untill mkis were delivered from russia no crashes no faults spotted ever since hal started assembling crashed happen volah , no problems yer with mirage 2k delivered from france, hal is the problem

mirage from france
Mki from Russia

even Rafale from france will be only few in nos

18 out of 126

now once this 18 are delivered 108

even if accidents are identified and a prorata break up given then only be comparable

also when CAG says >40% of crashed are due to HE and attributable to IAF there is no reason to doubt it as they have reported this from IAFs own inquiry reports which IAF never makes public

why did C 130 went down ? within 6 months ? you mean to say US OEMS are bad than Russian OEMs ?

if IAF pilots erc HE is responsible then they are responsible and we have to accept it in cases of MKI's also and in cases of HAL mfgs also

 

[Lone Ranger]

mirage from france
Mki from Russia

even Rafale from france will be only few in nos

18 out of 126

now once this 18 are delivered 108

even if accidents are identified and a prorata break up given then only be comparable

also when CAG says >40% of crashed are due to HE and attributable to IAF there is no reason to doubt it as they have reported this from IAFs own inquiry reports which IAF never makes public

why did C 130 went down ? within 6 months ? you mean to say US OEMS are bad than Russian OEMs ?

if IAF pilots erc HE is responsible then they are responsible and we have to accept it in cases of MKI's also and in cases of HAL mfgs also

super Hercules crashed due trbulance and pilot error correct but mjority of fighter manufactured by HAL are of sub standard quality , HAL should be privatized to bring proper work culture, better performance , timely delivery and quality standards , its a manufacturing unit not an rnd division like ada or drdo so privatization makes sense.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I don`t expected to see such a post from an Indian about Indian Aerospace ..

HF-24,HF-25, HF-73, Advanced Strike Aircraft (ASA), Ground Attack Fighter (GAF), HAL Dhruv, HAL Rudra and many more design and manufactured by HAL ..

, its a manufacturing unit not an rnd division like ada or drdo so privatization makes sense.

 

[Kyubi]

super Hercules crashed due trbulance and pilot error correct but mjority of fighter manufactured by HAL are of sub standard quality , HAL should be privatized to bring proper work culture, better performance , timely delivery and quality standards , its a manufacturing unit not an rnd division like ada or drdo so privatization makes sense.

OK ur saying that HAL should be privatised but who do u thing has the capital enough to take over the behemoth that is HAL ...

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

super Hercules crashed due trbulance and pilot error correct but mjority of fighter manufactured by HAL are of sub standard quality , HAL should be privatized to bring proper work culture, better performance , timely delivery and quality standards , its a manufacturing unit not an rnd division like ada or drdo so privatization makes sense.

but the fact remains that

out of the total crashes of IAF

less than 40% can be attributed to HAL

while more than 40% can be attributed to IAF itself

shouldnt the IAF be putting its own house in order before blaming all on HAL ?

also pl do checkup on mig 29 upgrade


also IAF took upon itslef to upgrade and manage the upgrade Mig 29 under its BRD

what happened ?

the programe is running behind shcedule ?

why ?

what will we say to thatt - IAF & its BRD ?

so we hvae to beleive HAL when they say they are always not at fault for delays it the fault was with HAL only why IAF run programme running behind schedule ?

when HAL cited the same reasons that is - non supply of parts from vendor IAF & Imported fanboys here were blaming HAL for poor enforcement of contracts, lethargy and excuses

now to remedy the situation the IAF asked for the upgrades to be done under its control - BRD - IAF boasted that BRD are capable for designing and building new fighters forget upgrades

now when the task has been handed over to IAF as per its demands what is the situation ?

the situation is same - delays ?

wasnt the IAF aware that they have shortfall of people to carry out this task ?

what steps have they taken in advance to remedy the situation ?

what is thier planning skills ? project amanagemnt skills ?

why are they not enforcing the contracts with the vendors ?

where are the fanboys who claimed that BRD is capable of designing and building fighters fromscartch ?

where are the fanboys who called such delyas by HAL as anti national & criminal ?

 

[arnabmit]

I see people are again parotting the 'privatize HAL' BS.

Really? Give up HAL to privates? Same privates who till date has not been able to make a decent 5 axis CNC, let alone a 9 axis one, or fabricate a silicon wafer, or manufacture a microprocessor, or design and create an electromechanical actuator, or FAB a half decent electroptical sensor, or design a 1000cc diesel engine, let alone a 1000 HP engine?

Man! Some people do love to live in la la land!

Privatize my foot!

 

[karn]

I see people are again parotting the 'privatize HAL' BS.

Really? Give up HAL to privates? Same privates who till date has not been able to make a decent 5 axis CNC, let alone a 9 axis one, or fabricate a silicon wafer, or manufacture a microprocessor, or design and create an electromechanical actuator, or FAB a half decent electroptical sensor, or design a 1000cc diesel engine, let alone a 1000 HP engine?

Man! Some people do love to live in la la land!

Privatize my foot!

Not to nitpick but
5 Axis CNC Router - 5 Axis CNC Router Manufacturer, Distributor & Supplier, Ludhiana, India
Kirloskar Oil Engines - Diesel Engines, Pump Sets and Diesel Generators - Mining Technology
But then again our PSU have not been able to develop any of those things you listed in any case .
Maybe that is why Ravi Shankar Prasad is going around begging every country to set up Silicon fabs here.
Or the Rustrom will not fly without the US actuator which is under an export ban .
Your argument would have some merit if PSUs had succeeded in these areas.
But thats not the point .. Hypothetically putting HAL under Corporate management and making it a publicly traded company would raise enough capital.

 

[Lone Ranger]

Not to nitpick but
5 Axis CNC Router - 5 Axis CNC Router Manufacturer, Distributor & Supplier, Ludhiana, India
Kirloskar Oil Engines - Diesel Engines, Pump Sets and Diesel Generators - Mining Technology
But then again our PSU have not been able to develop any of those things you listed in any case .
Maybe that is why Ravi Shankar Prasad is going around begging every country to set up Silicon fabs here.
Or the Rustrom will not fly without the US actuator which is under an export ban .
Your argument would have some merit if PSUs had succeeded in these areas.
But thats not the point .. Hypothetically putting HAL under Corporate management and making it a publicly traded company would raise enough capital.

Privatization will bring required stick in bum of hal babus and their lethargic culture.

 

[arnabmit]

Not to nitpick but
5 Axis CNC Router - 5 Axis CNC Router Manufacturer, Distributor & Supplier, Ludhiana, India
Kirloskar Oil Engines - Diesel Engines, Pump Sets and Diesel Generators - Mining Technology
But then again our PSU have not been able to develop any of those things you listed in any case .
Maybe that is why Ravi Shankar Prasad is going around begging every country to set up Silicon fabs here.
Or the Rustrom will not fly without the US actuator which is under an export ban .
Your argument would have some merit if PSUs had succeeded in these areas.
But thats not the point .. Hypothetically putting HAL under Corporate management and making it a publicly traded company would raise enough capital.

Again a load of BS.

The CNC router is a foreign product assembled and sold in India.

Kirloskar makes diesel units to run pumps and generators. Which automobile uses Kirloskar Engines? None!

Why is DRDO running a project to develop a 1500HP engine which should ideally come from private automotive sector? Because no Indian private automotive house has the capability to undertake such a project.

Why was DRDO importing rotary actuator from the US (economics of scale), and now that it has been blocked, developing it in-house? Because NO private company in India has the capacity to make it and supply to DRDO.

Why is RSP going around the world asking companies to set up FABs in India? Because NO Indian private company has the capability to do it. When DRDO wanted to make 3GOM, it floated tenders after tenders so that at least 1 Indian company can take up the challenge to supply silicon wafers. NONE could. So DRDO finally had to suffer a 3yr bureaucratic red tape in the US to get clearance to import a few silicone wafers.

You expect DRDO to manufacture silicone wafers?

Because of the utterly incompetent nincompoop private sectors, DRDO on a regular basis has to design, develop and manufacture nuts, bolts, washers, gaskets etc., which is not their job.

There is not a single private unit in India which can produce decent polarized glass lenses, or single frequency coated IR lenses. Do you expect DRDO to develop missile seekers or design, develop & manufacture lenses first?

In the west, when a missile or a UAV is developed, >70% of the components are sourced from domestic industry based on laid down parameters.

Here in India, it is the other way round. DRDO develops tools for manufacture components, trains people how to operate the tools and hand holds the completely incompetent private sector so that some of the manufacturing can be done off-DRDO-campus.

No defence R&D org can work efficiently without the support of domestic private industry. DRDO does not have the support. Still they deliver.

 

[sgarg]

@arnabmit, the government has to fund the project which is given to private sector for development.

The problem with r&d is the cost. Why would private sector put up funds for r&d when there is no commitment from government to buy.

People who have spent money on howitzers etc. are sitting on products that army does not want to buy.

The circle has to close if private sector has to contribute majorly. The government has to provide the money, and in return government can be owner of the developed product.
Similarly the cost to put up the factory has to come from government. Defence products cannot be treated as civilian products.

 

[sgarg]

Private sector has to contend with myriad rules and regulations in India in addition to corruption and harassment.

India has the worst industrial policy of all the nations.

There is a need to abolish excise duty in any form. Even VAT should be charged only on the final product. The entire value chain needs to be freed from taxes. Only then industry will do well.

The license and tax gunda raaj is killing Indian industry and making Indians poorer.

 

[arnabmit]

@arnabmit, the government has to fund the project which is given to private sector for development.

The problem with r&d is the cost. Why would private sector put up funds for r&d when there is no commitment from government to buy.

People who have spent money on howitzers etc. are sitting on products that army does not want to buy.

The circle has to close if private sector has to contribute majorly. The government has to provide the money, and in return government can be owner of the developed product.
Similarly the cost to put up the factory has to come from government. Defence products cannot be treated as civilian products.

Who's talking about Howitsers? I am talking about silicon wafers, actuators, optical lenses, materials, automotive engines etc. etc. all of which have both defence and civilian use.

Only recently MRF have started making aviation tyres. Before that every tyre was imported.

Mahindra up-armours vehicles, but imports the armour plates and bullet-resistant glasses. Why? Because the polycarbonate needed for bullet resistant glasses are not made in India. Some have only recently started manufacturing sheets of tungsten carbide and aluminium-titanium allow

Why is Dyneema not produced in India? Apart from light weight buoyant level-IIIA/III/IV bullet proof plates, dyneema is used for ultra low friction coatings for civilian applications. It is primarily used as a replacement of cartilage in bone joint replacement surgeries.

 

[Zebra]

@arnabmit,

Sir, now kindly suggest some solutions also.

 

[Lone Ranger]

Who's talking about Howitsers? I am talking about silicon wafers, actuators, optical lenses, materials, automotive engines etc. etc. all of which have both defence and civilian use.

Only recently MRF have started making aviation tyres. Before that every tyre was imported.

Mahindra up-armours vehicles, but imports the armour plates and bullet-resistant glasses. Why? Because the polycarbonate needed for bullet resistant glasses are not made in India. Some have only recently started manufacturing sheets of tungsten carbide and aluminium-titanium allow

Why is Dyneema not produced in India? Apart from light weight buoyant level-IIIA/III/IV bullet proof plates, dyneema is used for ultra low friction coatings for civilian applications. It is primarily used as a replacement of cartilage in bone joint replacement surgeries.

Answer to all of this was govt policies to prefer DRDO /export over local pvt manufacturing , without any substantial order why will these pvt companies invest in such stuff ?

 

[sgarg]

Who's talking about Howitsers? I am talking about silicon wafers, actuators, optical lenses, materials, automotive engines etc. etc. all of which have both defence and civilian use.

Only recently MRF have started making aviation tyres. Before that every tyre was imported.

Mahindra up-armours vehicles, but imports the armour plates and bullet-resistant glasses. Why? Because the polycarbonate needed for bullet resistant glasses are not made in India. Some have only recently started manufacturing sheets of tungsten carbide and aluminium-titanium allow

Why is Dyneema not produced in India? Apart from light weight buoyant level-IIIA/III/IV bullet proof plates, dyneema is used for ultra low friction coatings for civilian applications. It is primarily used as a replacement of cartilage in bone joint replacement surgeries.

India can and will produce all the items if:

a. The government regulation and taxes are reduced.
b. R&D is funded by the government.

Many products have very small markets which can be produced only with government support.

Government can involve private sector groups like Tata, Mahindra etc. in defence production. Who stops the government from doing that? Small sector can do only so much. Ultimately it is the biggies that have to pull.

 

[arnabmit]

@arnabmit,

Sir, now kindly suggest some solutions also.

Solution is already being implemented.

1> Initiate a massive industrialization drive
2> Invite FDI for tech know-how
3> Initiate massive skill development programs to prepare HR
4> Correct whatever management fallacies might exist in PSUs.

 

[arnabmit]

India can and will produce all the items if:

a. The government regulation and taxes are reduced.
b. R&D is funded by the government.

Many products have very small markets which can be produced only with government support.

Government can involve private sector groups like Tata, Mahindra etc. in defence production. Who stops the government from doing that? Small sector can do only so much. Ultimately it is the biggies that have to pull.

Heil Marx!

But no, really.

Regulation and taxes are already being reduced.

R&D investment should be done by those who would take the profit away. Not funded by the govt., except in critical areas.

 

[Lone Ranger]

Solution is already being implemented.

1> Initiate a massive industrialization drive
2> Invite FDI for tech know-how
3> Initiate massive skill development programs to prepare HR
4> Correct whatever management fallacies might exist in PSUs.

Big stick in bum of HAL/DRDO babus and straightening out their work culture.