Know Your 'Rafale'

pmaitra

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Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

Yeah i know what u meant but I thot how come you or anybody suggest that....
Firstly it will not make the aircraft any cheaper off the shelf can never be cheap(will be cheaper than when it comes with TOT though)...+ it will loose Make In India Concept... even if we ignore that ...what do you think the cost of those squad will be.... Then sum up everything as nothing will be Made In India we will be totally dependent on them....

And as many expert say the cost of an aircraft sometimes might be lesser than its maintenance throughout it life span.
Companies sometime quote less price and tend to add a lot of Misc costs which later will hurt us....
special parts are quoted way to expensive... thats how they survive....
Valid points. In that case, we can totally trash the Rafale, and instead push the French to make fast progress on the K10 (Kaveri). I don't mind being monetarily generous with the French, as long as it help us make everything in India in the long run.
 

Lions Of Punjab

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MMRCA an Absolute Necessity - The New Indian Express
MMRCA an Absolute Necessity

Bharat Karnad's article, "Impending MMRCA Waste", published in The New Indian Express on October 3 is a clear attempt to keep the MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) pot boiling—it warrants a response only to sensitise the environment of the truth, just as the learned professor tries to undermine it with his needless ranting on the MMRCA. There seems to be a desperation that merits serious scrutiny—who or what is the guiding beacon behind his sustained attempt to force policy makers to take a re-look at an acquisition, the need for which was felt as far back as 2001? Is he batting for an outsider who is looking for a "window of opportunity" as the new government settles down, or is he pitching for an ill-informed brigade that seems to think that a "whatever there is to offer" approach, which will cause the IAF to dangerously slip into the "operational red" in a hostile environment is okay just because it gives a fillip to indigenisation.

The IAF has been trying to plug operational gaps over the past few years despite assiduous attempts by the likes of Karnad to throw in a spanner at regular intervals. In November last year, a few months after the new Basic Trainer Aircraft (BTA) was acquired by the IAF, the Pilatus PC-7 commenced operations at the Air Force Academy in Dundigal after years of attempting to set the HPT-32 right. Along comes an article from Karnad questioning the Pilatus deal. Worse still, despite numerous crashes on the HPT-32 and a gaping hole in our training preparedness, he wanted the IAF to buy a platform which he called the HJT-44 (actually the HTT-44) whose prototype had yet to be proven. One year down the line, cadets at the Air Force Academy are raving about the Pilatus PC-7, instructors no longer have to worry about extricating themselves from too many life-threatening emergencies and technical glitches, and more importantly, its operational impact will soon be seen when pilots trained in it make the transition to more sophisticated aircraft like the Hawk, Mirage-2000 and SU-30 with ease. Apart from its operational impact, the Chief of Air Staff (CAS) also wants to see less worry in the eyes of parents who send their young adult-kids into the tough world of military aviation—I wonder Mr Karnad if you have ever served as a pall-bearer and heard the last post sounded after a fatal crash involving a cadet under training and/or his instructor.

The CAS did some plain talking at his traditional pre-Air Force Day press conference and clearly highlighted the operational gaps that existed with the IAF's current force and capability levels, particularly in the offensive domain. The main punch of the IAF revolves around the swing role capability of the SU-30 MKI which is experiencing some maintenance problems that are under resolution. The Mirage-2000 and MiG-29 are in the midst of major upgrades which have long implementation periods to fructify into contemporary capability. Our western adversary has acquired aerial weapons systems that allow it to punch above its weight, and the only way that the IAF can retain its decade-old aerial edge and counter it is by swamping it with a combination of SU-30 and an equally good or better platform. The Rafale emerged as a clear winner along with other ingredients (combination of pricing, life-cycle costs, technology transfer, etc.) that gave it a clear competitive edge over other contenders for the 126 aircraft MMRCA deal in what was an impeccably transparent evaluation process.

Prof Karnad's contention that the procurement of 12 upgraded Qatari Mirage-2000s in the early part of the last decade was shelved to pave the way for a global tender for an MMRCA that would last well beyond the middle of the century; of course it was and why not if the IAF was getting a significantly superior platform? Karnad would like the public to believe that the purchase decision of the Qatari Mirages was scuttled by the then CAS. Technically, the CAS is not part of the procurement process which has embedded checks and balances at every level. He is not an "approving authority" in any procurement process and to attribute such influence to him is amazing, particularly when it comes from someone like Prof Karnad, who not so very long ago was part of government advisory bodies like the National Security Advisory Board and numerous other quasi-official committees. The accusation, unless proven, could rightfully be tantamount to mud-slinging.

Prof Karnad also attempts to frighten the daylight out of us by predicting a grounding of fleets and closure of manufacturing lines of aircraft like the Eurofighter (EF). How does the Eurofighter suddenly emerge in your target zone, prof? I thought you were targeting the Rafale! Inclusion of Eurofighter in this debate is a canard by Karnad. He rambles along disjointedly in his article about Raytheon, a US company being the manufacturer of the Eurofighter's data fusion system and the probability of the US pulling the plug whenever they want and grounding the fleet. I think we have come a long way in our relationship with the US.

Air power in modern warfare is not just physical destruction of targets; it is more about affecting the mind of your adversary with coercive capability. A combination of the SU-30, MMRCA (Rafale) and upgraded M-2000 and MiG-29s as your frontline offensive punch is an intimidating mix by any standards. The flexibility that it will afford to mix and match between offensive and defensive missions will offer great security, particularly to the Indian Army as it increasingly looks to the IAF to clear the skies and cause significant attrition to the enemy's combat potential before it comes into contact with own forces in the Tactical Battle Area (TBA). Smaller and legacy platforms like the LCA, Jaguar, Hawk and the remaining MiG variants will then contribute significantly to the joint battle as they put pressure on the enemy and cause destruction in and around the TBA. That, Mr Karnad, is how a battlefield is shaped if you have the necessary wherewithal—you cannot do it if you remain with 34 squadrons or less for much longer, or opt for platforms that do not meet the requirements of operational commanders. The IAF has always welcomed constructive criticism, but when Karnad dishes out such disruptive writing, he needs to be suitably countered!

The author is a serving Air Vice Marshal in the IAF. Email: [email protected]
 

Lions Of Punjab

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Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

MMRCA an Absolute Necessity - The New Indian Express
MMRCA an Absolute Necessity

Bharat Karnad's article, "Impending MMRCA Waste", published in The New Indian Express on October 3 is a clear attempt to keep the MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) pot boiling—it warrants a response only to sensitise the environment of the truth, just as the learned professor tries to undermine it with his needless ranting on the MMRCA. There seems to be a desperation that merits serious scrutiny—who or what is the guiding beacon behind his sustained attempt to force policy makers to take a re-look at an acquisition, the need for which was felt as far back as 2001? Is he batting for an outsider who is looking for a "window of opportunity" as the new government settles down, or is he pitching for an ill-informed brigade that seems to think that a "whatever there is to offer" approach, which will cause the IAF to dangerously slip into the "operational red" in a hostile environment is okay just because it gives a fillip to indigenisation.

The IAF has been trying to plug operational gaps over the past few years despite assiduous attempts by the likes of Karnad to throw in a spanner at regular intervals. In November last year, a few months after the new Basic Trainer Aircraft (BTA) was acquired by the IAF, the Pilatus PC-7 commenced operations at the Air Force Academy in Dundigal after years of attempting to set the HPT-32 right. Along comes an article from Karnad questioning the Pilatus deal. Worse still, despite numerous crashes on the HPT-32 and a gaping hole in our training preparedness, he wanted the IAF to buy a platform which he called the HJT-44 (actually the HTT-44) whose prototype had yet to be proven. One year down the line, cadets at the Air Force Academy are raving about the Pilatus PC-7, instructors no longer have to worry about extricating themselves from too many life-threatening emergencies and technical glitches, and more importantly, its operational impact will soon be seen when pilots trained in it make the transition to more sophisticated aircraft like the Hawk, Mirage-2000 and SU-30 with ease. Apart from its operational impact, the Chief of Air Staff (CAS) also wants to see less worry in the eyes of parents who send their young adult-kids into the tough world of military aviation—I wonder Mr Karnad if you have ever served as a pall-bearer and heard the last post sounded after a fatal crash involving a cadet under training and/or his instructor.

The CAS did some plain talking at his traditional pre-Air Force Day press conference and clearly highlighted the operational gaps that existed with the IAF's current force and capability levels, particularly in the offensive domain. The main punch of the IAF revolves around the swing role capability of the SU-30 MKI which is experiencing some maintenance problems that are under resolution. The Mirage-2000 and MiG-29 are in the midst of major upgrades which have long implementation periods to fructify into contemporary capability. Our western adversary has acquired aerial weapons systems that allow it to punch above its weight, and the only way that the IAF can retain its decade-old aerial edge and counter it is by swamping it with a combination of SU-30 and an equally good or better platform. The Rafale emerged as a clear winner along with other ingredients (combination of pricing, life-cycle costs, technology transfer, etc.) that gave it a clear competitive edge over other contenders for the 126 aircraft MMRCA deal in what was an impeccably transparent evaluation process.

Prof Karnad's contention that the procurement of 12 upgraded Qatari Mirage-2000s in the early part of the last decade was shelved to pave the way for a global tender for an MMRCA that would last well beyond the middle of the century; of course it was and why not if the IAF was getting a significantly superior platform? Karnad would like the public to believe that the purchase decision of the Qatari Mirages was scuttled by the then CAS. Technically, the CAS is not part of the procurement process which has embedded checks and balances at every level. He is not an "approving authority" in any procurement process and to attribute such influence to him is amazing, particularly when it comes from someone like Prof Karnad, who not so very long ago was part of government advisory bodies like the National Security Advisory Board and numerous other quasi-official committees. The accusation, unless proven, could rightfully be tantamount to mud-slinging.

Prof Karnad also attempts to frighten the daylight out of us by predicting a grounding of fleets and closure of manufacturing lines of aircraft like the Eurofighter (EF). How does the Eurofighter suddenly emerge in your target zone, prof? I thought you were targeting the Rafale! Inclusion of Eurofighter in this debate is a canard by Karnad. He rambles along disjointedly in his article about Raytheon, a US company being the manufacturer of the Eurofighter's data fusion system and the probability of the US pulling the plug whenever they want and grounding the fleet. I think we have come a long way in our relationship with the US.

Air power in modern warfare is not just physical destruction of targets; it is more about affecting the mind of your adversary with coercive capability. A combination of the SU-30, MMRCA (Rafale) and upgraded M-2000 and MiG-29s as your frontline offensive punch is an intimidating mix by any standards. The flexibility that it will afford to mix and match between offensive and defensive missions will offer great security, particularly to the Indian Army as it increasingly looks to the IAF to clear the skies and cause significant attrition to the enemy's combat potential before it comes into contact with own forces in the Tactical Battle Area (TBA). Smaller and legacy platforms like the LCA, Jaguar, Hawk and the remaining MiG variants will then contribute significantly to the joint battle as they put pressure on the enemy and cause destruction in and around the TBA. That, Mr Karnad, is how a battlefield is shaped if you have the necessary wherewithal—you cannot do it if you remain with 34 squadrons or less for much longer, or opt for platforms that do not meet the requirements of operational commanders. The IAF has always welcomed constructive criticism, but when Karnad dishes out such disruptive writing, he needs to be suitably countered!

The author is a serving Air Vice Marshal in the IAF. Email: [email protected]
 

jaci07

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I am sorry guys.I really dont want to fight.

Sent from my Micromax A106 using Tapatalk
 

halloweene

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Some interesting features : real time datalink, covers the whole decision chain, capability to detect human/vehicles movements, laser 3D imagery and long distance id and tracking in air 2 air.
 
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SajeevJino

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Opération Chammal : mission de bombardement de nuit de la coalition

Sry, in french. Google is your firend.

Generally speaking, massive coalition raid, 70 bombs dropped including 12 AASM from 2 Rafales. They all hit their target and destroyed targeted buildings.

Btw, 2 days ago they gun straffed some vehicles.
I read about the Report of Gun Strafing over ISIL .i think the Rafale Should be in Low altitude and Slow speed to do the Gun fire in the Ground

#973
 

PaliwalWarrior

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Oh really!!!
Rafale has shot down us air force best warplane f-22.
Some of the best features of rafales are:-
1:-An intelligent flight suit worn by the Rafale pilot is automatically controlled by the aircraft to counteract in response to calculated g-forces.
2:- Among the features of the highly digitised cockpit is an integrated direct voice input (DVI) system, allowing a range of aircraft functions to be controlled by spoken voice commands, simplifying the pilot's access to many of the controls.
3:- An on-board oxygen generating system, developed by Air Liquide, eliminates the need to carry bulky oxygen canisters
4:- The Rafale's fight computer has been programmed to counteract pilot disorientation and to employ automatic recovery of the aircraft during negative flight conditions
5:- In the area of life-support, the Rafale is fitted with a Martin-Baker Mark 16F "zero-zero" ejection seat, capable of operation at zero speed and zero altitude

Sent from my Micromax A106 using Tapatalk
OBOGS is also made by DRDO

Martin Baker 0-0 ejection seats are available off the shelf nothing unique to Rafale
 

PaliwalWarrior

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Some interesting features : real time datalink, covers the whole decision chain, capability to detect human/vehicles movements, laser 3D imagery and long distance id and tracking in air 2 air.
real time datalink is not unique to rafale

even Su30MKI gave those capability way back in 2004

capability to detecet human/vehicles is again dependent on sensor suite - cna be addeed to any aircraft
 
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Iceman2012

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Whatever be the reason, I fail to understand that why do we take so much time to sign a deal. Brazil selected the Gripen in December 2013 and they have already signed the deal. We should also move quicker........
 

Pulkit

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Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

Valid points. In that case, we can totally trash the Rafale, and instead push the French to make fast progress on the K10 (Kaveri). I don't mind being monetarily generous with the French, as long as it help us make everything in India in the long run.
French yes that can be done i believe but what I think is we can exploit Russia in a better way now.... they need us badly ....
We can get all knowledge force Russian to share everythin related to FGFA even engine..... we r already paying for it why not exploit it totally...?
 

Zebra

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Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

French yes that can be done i believe but what I think is we can exploit Russia in a better way now.... they need us badly ....
We can get all knowledge force Russian to share everythin related to FGFA even engine..... we r already paying for it why not exploit it totally...?
Most welcome to wonderland, sir.

When they provide "all knowledge force", please don't forget to call me.

You can find me easily, somewhere around here.

Best of luck.
 

Pulkit

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Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

Most welcome to wonderland, sir.

When they provide "all knowledge force", please don't forget to call me.

You can find me easily, somewhere around here.

Best of luck.
If thats a dream then do explain french sharing all in TOT... atleast with Russians we know how much and what can be extracted ....
you are welcome to take what I wrote literally with out understanding it....

Russians at this moment are more vulnerable than the french.....

piece of our defense export will be too generous for them....

It is upto you how and when you play ur cards....
 

pmaitra

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Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

French yes that can be done i believe but what I think is we can exploit Russia in a better way now.... they need us badly ....
We can get all knowledge force Russian to share everythin related to FGFA even engine..... we r already paying for it why not exploit it totally...?
That is exactly my point. Opportunities do not come every day, and when they come, we need to make the most of it.

Some folks have suggested a hands off approach, but you can post your views, here: http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...can-india-leverage-france-bailing-russia.html
 

halloweene

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real time datalink is not unique to rafale

even Su30MKI gave those capability way back in 2004

capability to detecet human/vehicles is again dependent on sensor suite - cna be addeed to any aircraft
did i ever say it is unique? pr compare anything with SU-30
 

Zebra

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Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

If thats a dream then do explain french sharing all in TOT... atleast with Russians we know how much and what can be extracted ....
you are welcome to take what I wrote literally with out understanding it....

Russians at this moment are more vulnerable than the french.....

piece of our defense export will be too generous for them....

It is upto you how and when you play ur cards....
Putin announces Russian first-half defence exports - IHS Jane's 360

TASS: Russia - Russia's major weapon supplier exports more than $5 billion over 6 months 2014

French Arms Exports Rise 42 Percent | Defense News | defensenews.com

If you think Russia or even France are vulnerable and they are struggling in defense export orders then sorry, but think it again.

It is extremely hard to get full ToT. Specially for critical items, forget it.

Joint development and/or joint production type deal can help. But still there won't be any guarantee for full TOT in it also.
 

ersakthivel

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Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

MMRCA an Absolute Necessity - The New Indian Express
MMRCA an Absolute Necessity

Bharat Karnad's article, "Impending MMRCA Waste", published in The New Indian Express on October 3 is a clear attempt to keep the MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) pot boiling—it warrants a response only to sensitise the environment of the truth, just as the learned professor tries to undermine it with his needless ranting on the MMRCA. There seems to be a desperation that merits serious scrutiny—who or what is the guiding beacon behind his sustained attempt to force policy makers to take a re-look at an acquisition, the need for which was felt as far back as 2001? Is he batting for an outsider who is looking for a "window of opportunity" as the new government settles down, or is he pitching for an ill-informed brigade that seems to think that a "whatever there is to offer" approach, which will cause the IAF to dangerously slip into the "operational red" in a hostile environment is okay just because it gives a fillip to indigenisation.

The IAF has been trying to plug operational gaps over the past few years despite assiduous attempts by the likes of Karnad to throw in a spanner at regular intervals. In November last year, a few months after the new Basic Trainer Aircraft (BTA) was acquired by the IAF, the Pilatus PC-7 commenced operations at the Air Force Academy in Dundigal after years of attempting to set the HPT-32 right. Along comes an article from Karnad questioning the Pilatus deal. Worse still, despite numerous crashes on the HPT-32 and a gaping hole in our training preparedness, he wanted the IAF to buy a platform which he called the HJT-44 (actually the HTT-44) whose prototype had yet to be proven. One year down the line, cadets at the Air Force Academy are raving about the Pilatus PC-7, instructors no longer have to worry about extricating themselves from too many life-threatening emergencies and technical glitches, and more importantly, its operational impact will soon be seen when pilots trained in it make the transition to more sophisticated aircraft like the Hawk, Mirage-2000 and SU-30 with ease. Apart from its operational impact, the Chief of Air Staff (CAS) also wants to see less worry in the eyes of parents who send their young adult-kids into the tough world of military aviation—I wonder Mr Karnad if you have ever served as a pall-bearer and heard the last post sounded after a fatal crash involving a cadet under training and/or his instructor.

The CAS did some plain talking at his traditional pre-Air Force Day press conference and clearly highlighted the operational gaps that existed with the IAF's current force and capability levels, particularly in the offensive domain. The main punch of the IAF revolves around the swing role capability of the SU-30 MKI which is experiencing some maintenance problems that are under resolution. The Mirage-2000 and MiG-29 are in the midst of major upgrades which have long implementation periods to fructify into contemporary capability. Our western adversary has acquired aerial weapons systems that allow it to punch above its weight, and the only way that the IAF can retain its decade-old aerial edge and counter it is by swamping it with a combination of SU-30 and an equally good or better platform. The Rafale emerged as a clear winner along with other ingredients (combination of pricing, life-cycle costs, technology transfer, etc.) that gave it a clear competitive edge over other contenders for the 126 aircraft MMRCA deal in what was an impeccably transparent evaluation process.

Prof Karnad's contention that the procurement of 12 upgraded Qatari Mirage-2000s in the early part of the last decade was shelved to pave the way for a global tender for an MMRCA that would last well beyond the middle of the century; of course it was and why not if the IAF was getting a significantly superior platform? Karnad would like the public to believe that the purchase decision of the Qatari Mirages was scuttled by the then CAS. Technically, the CAS is not part of the procurement process which has embedded checks and balances at every level. He is not an "approving authority" in any procurement process and to attribute such influence to him is amazing, particularly when it comes from someone like Prof Karnad, who not so very long ago was part of government advisory bodies like the National Security Advisory Board and numerous other quasi-official committees. The accusation, unless proven, could rightfully be tantamount to mud-slinging.

Prof Karnad also attempts to frighten the daylight out of us by predicting a grounding of fleets and closure of manufacturing lines of aircraft like the Eurofighter (EF). How does the Eurofighter suddenly emerge in your target zone, prof? I thought you were targeting the Rafale! Inclusion of Eurofighter in this debate is a canard by Karnad. He rambles along disjointedly in his article about Raytheon, a US company being the manufacturer of the Eurofighter's data fusion system and the probability of the US pulling the plug whenever they want and grounding the fleet. I think we have come a long way in our relationship with the US.

Air power in modern warfare is not just physical destruction of targets; it is more about affecting the mind of your adversary with coercive capability. A combination of the SU-30, MMRCA (Rafale) and upgraded M-2000 and MiG-29s as your frontline offensive punch is an intimidating mix by any standards. The flexibility that it will afford to mix and match between offensive and defensive missions will offer great security, particularly to the Indian Army as it increasingly looks to the IAF to clear the skies and cause significant attrition to the enemy's combat potential before it comes into contact with own forces in the Tactical Battle Area (TBA). Smaller and legacy platforms like the LCA, Jaguar, Hawk and the remaining MiG variants will then contribute significantly to the joint battle as they put pressure on the enemy and cause destruction in and around the TBA. That, Mr Karnad, is how a battlefield is shaped if you have the necessary wherewithal—you cannot do it if you remain with 34 squadrons or less for much longer, or opt for platforms that do not meet the requirements of operational commanders. The IAF has always welcomed constructive criticism, but when Karnad dishes out such disruptive writing, he needs to be suitably countered!

The author is a serving Air Vice Marshal in the IAF. Email: [email protected]
http://bharatkarnad.com/2013/11/10/...amaniams-response-to-wasteful-military-deals/

Tejas 1 and mk2 are by no means legacy platforms.The present CAS has said that tejas is a welcome addition to IAF's fighting capacity. I dont remember any airchief calling it a legacy platform. Even PV Naik said that once tejas finishes FOC it will be a true multi role 4.5th gen fighter in the gripen class .

Upgraded mirage-2000s will have a far lower range BVR missile than both tejas mk1 and mk2 along with 10 and 30 percent lower Thrust to weight ratio compared to tejas mk1 and mk2 respectively.So how come it become a non legaacy platform while tejas which has better Thrust to Weight ratio and lower wing loading than Mirage-2000 become legacy fighter?

the IAF group captain and most experienced international award winning test pilot of tejas Suneeth krishna has said that tejas mk1 is "at least equal to upgraded mirage-2000". So which is a legacy platform?Grouping tejas with useless hawk and jag shows the article is not reflecting the true ground reality.It is surprising to see high IAF officials routinely indulging in this hate mongering on tejas, whether the recently held Vayu stratpost conference or this article they never fail to mention that tejas is just a mig-21 replacement or it should be closed down or it is a legacy platform!!!!But test pilot accounts are so different from their views!!!!


So it is quiet surprising to hear that while 5 decades old Mig-29s and Mirage-2000s are supposed to be cutting edge frontline fighters tejas is called a legacy platform.Tejas has a bigger radome dia than rafale to fit any future higher powered ASEA radars.

Legacy means older designs.In that case it is the rafale which is older in design than both Tejas mk1 and mk2.And once china inducts J-20 and J-31 the 20 billion dollar rafale will be a true legacy platform designed in the 1980s with no stealth 5th gen airframe concepts in mind.

People are free to support any fighter of their choice for MMRCA, but that doesn't mean one has to stick a legacy label on tejas, mk2 of which is yet to fly.how come a fighter that hasn't even flown become a legacy platform?

I thought ASRs were issued with certain capability aims. It is the first time I hear that MMRCA was selected for coercive capability to affect the mind of adversary!!!!

Including the Eurofighter is no canard by kanard. Airmarshal should remember that IAF has shortlisted both rafale and eurofighter for their MMRCA shortlist.In case eurofighter was offered at a lower price , it would have won the MMRCA bid.Even now if some problem arose in negotiations with Dassault Eurofighter is still the L2 choice.

I want to know what type of brainstorming went on between IAF and HAL for decades which could not solve the fuel pump issues of HPT-32? And Why with base repair depots good enough to design and make a MMRCA class fighter and assemble a Pliatus level trainer , IAF cpuld not rectify the fuel pump issues of HPT-32 And why did Arjun Subramanium failed to mention about the HPT-35 which too was developed at the behest of IAf by HAL was not pursued with interest by IAF for close to a decade ? it was shelved because IAF did not show any interest. It was this decade long delay by IAF which did not approve the HPT-35 proposal from HAL which led to this sorry state pf importing Pilatus while designing tejas!!!!!!!!!! Ajai Shukla and many other writers have pointed this out in many blogs. It is not Bharat Karnad alone.

The fuel fraction (percentage of weight of fuel divided by eight of the fully loaded fighter)is what determines the range of the fighter. The ferry range of all fighters like Mig-29, RAFALE Mirage-Tejas which all have varying weights is more or less the same.So for normal combat loads with normal fuel config they will all have normal ranges. Also a fully indigenous produced Su-30 MKI is already available for long range bombing. Then what is the need for medium range RAFALE which will have 10 or twenty percentage range advantage over tejas mk-2 at a huge forex outgo of 20 billion dollars? Also FGFA is slated to come in in a decade. Then what role will RAFALE do which can not be performed by combination of tejas mk-2, SU-30 MKI(upgraded to super sukhoi status) and tejas mk-2? So this medium class is totally unnecessary classification designed to fool the inexperienced political leadership and aviation enthusiasts.


If more weapon weight is needed we can use two tejas mk-2s in place of one RAFALE if both have the same range .The real question is what does IAF gain by inducting so called 20 ton class RAFALE as a meium weight fighter ?The french are standardizing on on all RAFALE fighter force with twin engined 20 ton RAFALEs Meanwhile russians are standardizing on 30n ton twin engined PAKFA and Su-35,

The US is inducting single engined F-35 in large scale. Unlike IAF the above mentioned airforces need to fly long distances to fight the enemy. It is not the case with IAF.Where most of the targets are well with in short range. And when it comes to air defence of Indian airspace tejas mk-2 will have no shortfalls compared to RAFALE on account of range or weapon load. Also work is already going on ASEA radar miniaturization and LRDE has fair experience in it.


And we are no longer under crippling western sanctions so we will find partners on that count with no restrictions. Even RAFALE has just put on ASEA radar for trials. We don't how fully developed it really is PAF is going for 120 light class Jf-17, are all these airforces buy any light medium or heavy fighter that is missing from their fleet from any third country? Certainly they won't do such a stupid thing . Fuel fraction (weight of fuel/loaded weight for normal combat sorties in design weapon loads)determines the range not the fighter being named light or heavy. if tejas mk-2 has same fuel fraction as RAFALE it will also have th same range. Most probably it will end up ten to twenty percent shortage in range nothing big, Also we can employ three tejas mk-2 with 15 ton weapon loads with same radar diameter and long range BVR missiles of RAFALE for the cost of one RAFALE.

So no shortage when it comes to weapon load. Infact tejas mk-2s will deliver double the weapon load with three times more sensor capability if costs are taken into account MMRCA contract originated as a proposal to buy 126 Mirage -2000 in the late 90s. To avoid the single vendor situation GOI asked it to be a global tender in 2004. Before that there was no long felt need in IAF for so called 20 ton medium weight fighter. tejas mk-2 will have at the most a twenty percent shortage when it comes to weapon load and range requirements over RAFALE. But ordering a few more squadrons of very low priced(because of the 100 percent indigenization) Su-30 MKIs in super Sukhoi versions or increasing the numbers of FGFA to by a few squadrons will be equal to having RAFALEs. Certainly there is no such thing that Su-30 MKi, Tejas mk-2 and FGFA combine can't do that RAFALE can!!!


If you spend the same 20 to 30 billion (considering high maintanece cost)in the two coming decades on such tejas mk-2 and and a few extra squads of FGFA or Su-30 MKI IAF can improve its attcaking capability in a substantial manner. We can have more than 300 fighters in such combo compared to just 126 RAFALEs for the same cost. Also the MMRCA contract was changed form life cycle cost based buy to per unit fly away cost mid way. And the winner Dassault which entered the competition knowing well that the HAL is to be its local partner is saying HAL is unfit for the job. if a a no experience private sector firm gets choosen by dassault as local partners then all the TOT norms go for a toss. The MMRCA was not an original need . It was born from the 126 Mirage-2000 buy proposal which was shot down because of single vendor situation by MOD in 2004 , thus it became MMRCA. If MOD promptly accepted the 126 mirage-2000 buy from IAF there would be no MMRCA.
 
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biswaranjanrath.sipu

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In the past France exported mirage fighter to both Pakistan and india.but Russia never gave any vital military equipment to pak .so Russia is a reliable friend of india.Rather than this su 30 mki far more capable than Rafale jet.so iaf should terminate the tender to procure double amount of air Superiority fighter su 30 mki by which the maintainace issue can also be resolved .Apart from that, iaf should utilize some fund for faster development of LCA mk 2 fighter.
 
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Zebra

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In the past France exported mirage fighter to both Pakistan and india.but Russia never gave any vital military equipment to pak .so Russia is a reliable friend of india.Rather than this su 30 mki far more capable than Rafale jet.so iaf should terminate the tender to procure double amount of air Superiority fighter su 30 mki by which the maintainace issue can also be resolved .Apart from that, iaf should utilize some fund for faster development of LCA mk 2 fighter.
Please answer post #687 of http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-air-force/45058-ada-lca-tejas-mark-ii-46.html, if you don't mind.
 

SajeevJino

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Another Milestone in the Rafale Deal

Safran and Max Aerospace create joint venture in India for maintenance of military aircraft engine

The future entity, Max Aero Engines Private Limited (MAEPL) will be specialized in MRO of aircraft engines of the Indian Air Force, including the Snecma M53 engines of the Dassault Aviation Mirage 2000 which is part of its fleet. This anchoring with local aviation groups could be strengthened by the signing of a long-awaited contract: the one currently in negotiation between New Delhi and Dassault Aviation for the supply of 126 Rafale fighter jets to the Indian Air Force
Safran crée une coentreprise en Inde pour la maintenance des moteurs d'avions militaires - Défense

Thanks to Olybrius
 

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