Know Your 'Rafale'

[p2prada]

Or may be our fanboys here know more about the plane they have not even seen than the pilots who tested them

A lot of people underestimate the Rafale even though it is currently the most advanced aircraft around. Naturally our air force knows better, as do a number of other air forces. Ultimately it doesn't make a difference whether civilians think otherwise or not.

Being underestimated is a good thing. The shock effect is greater.

 

[Immanuel]

Posting a video of a dogfight with the F-22 VS Rafale is actually rather silly, it doesn't prove anything, even the MKI, Mig-29 or the LCA MK-1 can kill the Raptor in a dogfight, it comes down to pilot skill and tactics. The MKI has plenty of gun kills on the Rafale and EF as well.

SH growler remains the only aircraft to have gotten an A2A BVR Amraam kill on the Raptor that is what counts. Raptor will kill the Rafale in BVR any day, dogfights are are silly way to judge an aircraft's prowess. Mig-21 Bisons gave F-16s and F-15s a whole lot of trouble in dogfights as well.

 

[p2prada]

Posting a video of a dogfight with the F-22 VS Rafale is actually rather silly, it doesn't prove anything, even the MKI, Mig-29 or the LCA MK-1 can kill the Raptor in a dogfight, it comes down to pilot skill and tactics. The MKI has plenty of gun kills on the Rafale and EF as well.

For a layman, that video may not be that impressive. But when this was shown to pilots, a lot of them were impressed. Those numbers you see there on the display impressed them.

SH growler remains the only aircraft to have gotten an A2A BVR Amraam kill on the Raptor that is what counts. Raptor will kill the Rafale in BVR any day, dogfights are are silly way to judge an aircraft's prowess. Mig-21 Bisons gave F-16s and F-15s a whole lot of trouble in dogfights as well.

Everything depends on the scenario and RoE.

That dog fight video was just to demonstrate that Rafale could easily keep up with America's best in terms of low speed maneuverability. The SH doesn't even compare.

 

[halloweene]

on the last text added (to my request) it is written that by no way this video demonstrates any superirity of Rafale over F-22, just that it can keep up in dogfight btw.

 

[halloweene]

That dog fight video was just to demonstrate that Rafale could easily keep up with America's best in terms of low speed maneuverability. The SH doesn't even compare.

Tbh F-18 is a veery good plane at low speed high AoA, but it will deplete more energy. Any pulot will try to bring the other plane in his best corner.

 

[p2prada]

Tbh F-18 is a veery good plane at low speed high AoA, but it will deplete more energy. Any pulot will try to bring the other plane in his best corner.

The SH can't accelerate, turn or climb like the Rafale has been doing in the video. AoA is for taking missile shots, that wasn't the point of the dog fight which was gun kill only, which I'm sure you already know.

Sometimes even the SH's best is not enough. People have to realize that even though the SH is a good aircraft, it has been outclassed by others.

 

[Dhairya Yadav]

If we procured Super Hornet in 2004 , it would have been great. But in 2014, Super hornet is outdated by other fighters.

Everybody accuses Dassualt for price increases. Actually its our fault. It was us that let the bids hit its deadline before. Its a fact that if you delay something, costs would increase.
Another example of this would be Airbus A330MRT. 7 yrs back, it was us that rejected it because of "high costs".
Now, in 2014, we are again negotiating for the same plane, but with doubled price tag.

I agree that Rafale is a very good combat fighter. But what about its ground attack capabilities ? Its also gonna fill the role of MiG-23.

 

[halloweene]

If we procured Super Hornet in 2004 , it would have been great. But in 2014, Super hornet is outdated by other fighters.

Everybody accuses Dassualt for price increases. Actually its our fault. It was us that let the bids hit its deadline before. Its a fact that if you delay something, costs would increase.
Another example of this would be Airbus A330MRT. 7 yrs back, it was us that rejected it because of "high costs".
Now, in 2014, we are again negotiating for the same plane, but with doubled price tag.

I agree that Rafale is a very good combat fighter. But what about its ground attack capabilities ? Its also gonna fill the role of MiG-23.

Latest strike in µIrak, two days ago...

 

[p2prada]

I agree that Rafale is a very good combat fighter. But what about its ground attack capabilities ? Its also gonna fill the role of MiG-23.

Rafale's ground attack capabilities are as good and in some cases better than its anti-air capabilities.

When it comes to performance, the good points are Rafale's ability to carry large payloads to long distances. It can even perform maneuvers up to 5.5G with a strike payload, not many aircraft can claim that.

The weapons options are quite good with SCALP and AASM. With the addition of the KH-31PD, Brahmos-M/II, Nirbhay and possibly Brimstone and hopefully CBU-105, we won't need anything else for many years.

Rafale, by lugging a large payload, would make the perfect complement to FGFA's supersonic dash capability. Rafale can perform swing role missions, so it exceeds the Mig-27 in every parameter. There is no comparison.

DIRCM would help out. Hopefully IAF Rafales will come with it.

SATCOM ability is already planned, so deep strike will most likely be among its primary missions. Eventually only MKI, FGFA and Rafale will come with SATCOM, so the plans are well laid out for Rafale in the IAF. Currently even ALA/MN Rafales come without SATCOM.

SATCOM is used in missions where ground and air based line-of-sight communication is unavailable. It is meant for aircraft that are to operate outside the safe zones of AEW&CS and ground based defenses.

 

[Immanuel]

http://warisboring.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/f18fgunf22.jpg

http://aviationintel.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/f18fgunf2202.jpg

SH gun kill on the Raptor no point on arguing on this one, SH does have a lower amount of energy at certain points in the envelope with current engines than the Rafale but it has a great ability to point its nose effortlessly. With the EPE engines will improve its aerial performance further. My beef is not with the Rafale, by all means it is the 1 of the 2 that cleared trials based on what was trialed at that time but my beef is with the massive cost and the piss poor methods of negotiation. I would really like some proper numbers i.e. no cutting short of orders to fit the bill, we should order 200 Rafales right away and be done with it. If the delays has delays that will only allow for deliveries in 2019+ then we might as well buy the F-35 in 3 different versions that fits better with schedule of INS Vishal, LHDs and other assets being put in place circa 2025 with F-35A being delivered first for the AF.

 

[Mad Indian]

Being underestimated is a good thing. The shock effect is greater.

It is only a good thing if the people underestimating it are our enemies. Its not good if our own people underestimate it and the deal was cancelled because of the huge lobby by the half baked armchair experts for political reasons.

 

[Rushil51]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJYOefVXVKQ#t=69

Rafale strikes in Iraq. Looks so beautiful.

 

[ersakthivel]

Or may be our fanboys here know more about the plane they have not even seen than the pilots who tested them

The feeling is mutual.

In the same way a few imported airforce fanboys wont believe the completley bonafide claims by IAF group captain and test pilot SUNEETH KRISHNA stating , "tejas is equal to upgradedd mirage-2000" .

And other authentic claims by NTSE chief Riaz Khokar who clearly said," even in mk1 tejas is better than Mirage-2000 in key respects and completely capable of doing the job in IAF". He expilictly stated that IAF can do well to order 100 tejas mk1s to immediately replace the aging Mig-21s rather than waiting for tejas mk2 providing for greater capacity production line to justify the investment..

In the same way no one questions rafale's capacities here.
In the same way no one accepts the claim that rafale can beat the Super sukhoi upgraded Su-30 MKis hands down to justify the price.

its all a matter of reading between the lines.

While import lobbyists cry there is no paucity of funds and the best plane should be bought whatever the cost, the sad reality is ,"Last year, the government had to transfer Rs.7,800 crore earmarked for modernisation to meet rising fuel costs. "There is a crunch that no one can deny," laments a three-star IAF officer.
".

The reason for the rise in the bills is heavy Su-30 MKI numbers increasing and they being asked to shoulder the load of light fighters like tejas,..Adding another 126 MMRCA birds with 15000 dollar per hour flying cost fighter will be like shooting ourselves in the foot. When the same capacity can be had with much lower operating cost tejas fighters mixed with heavy Su-30 MKis.

And rafale's MLU costs will be another huge price shocker if we go by the mirage-2000 figure. So what does it all do to the IAF capacity?


Thats why we should rationalize our purcahse to justify the capability increment and mreaching the sanctioned 45 squadron strength wih class comparable 4.5th gen fighters in all of them rather than having ubber fancty fighters in just six of them eating all the money and 14 plus squadrons left with 50 years old jag and Mig airframes.

Ofcourse there are a few people here for whom the word budget doesn't matter. I am not writting for them.

 

[Zebra]

Rafale is a good product, may be one of the best aircraft, there are no doubts about it.

But the price is ridiculous. It will be extremely costly to upgrade it.

To get the critical parts in time will be headache.

On top of it, it was Indian govt's political decision.

The funny part here is people are hiding that political factor behind 'one of the best aircraft' factor.

The bad part is our political professional force also joined that band wagon.

They think all those air-forces who make public their trial evaluations are not professional.

 

[p2prada]

They think all those air-forces who make public their trial evaluations are not professional.

The only evaluation available was the Swiss evaluation and it was leaked to the media. The govt launched an inquiry into the leak. It wasn't professional and the leak breached their secrecy laws.

No other county has made its evaluations public.

The only facts present today are that the Rafale and EF made the cut, all other aircraft failed to make the cut in the IAF. And among Rafale and EF, Rafale was the cheapest.

 

[sgarg]

Well the time rolls by and nothing is happening.

The bid amount of $9B excluded many key items, it seems. So the results of the competition announced by previous government were politically motivated.

The all inclusive bid has grown to $20B or $159 million per plane. This amount includes weapons but the figure per plane is still north of 120 million excluding weapons.

This can be compared with $65 million per plane for the latest version of Su-30.

I believe that BJP government is in no position whatsoever to approve this deal. This deal can cause an infinite amount of trouble for BJP in future.

It will be better to say bye-bye to Rafale for next five years. Nobody knows what happens thereafter but the situation does not look good until this government is in power.

 

[p2prada]

The all inclusive bid has grown to $20B or $159 million per plane. This amount includes weapons but the figure per plane is still north of 120 million excluding weapons.

Weapons are not part of the Rafale bid. The price you are referring to is what will cost over 30-40 years.

This can be compared with $65 million per plane for the latest version of Su-30.

Su-30 is still less than $50 million. This doesn't include lifecycle costs.

 

[Mad Indian]

The feeling is mutual.

In the same way a few imported airforce fanboys wont believe the completley bonafide claims by IAF group captain and test pilot SUNEETH KRISHNA stating , "tejas is equal to upgradedd mirage-2000" .

And other authentic claims by NTSE chief Riaz Khokar who clearly said," even in mk1 tejas is better than Mirage-2000 in key respects and completely capable of doing the job in IAF". He expilictly stated that IAF can do well to order 100 tejas mk1s to immediately replace the aging Mig-21s rather than waiting for tejas mk2 providing for greater capacity production line to justify the investment..

In the same way no one questions rafale's capacities here.
In the same way no one accepts the claim that rafale can beat the Super sukhoi upgraded Su-30 MKis hands down to justify the price.

its all a matter of reading between the lines.

While import lobbyists cry there is no paucity of funds and the best plane should be bought whatever the cost, the sad reality is ,"Last year, the government had to transfer Rs.7,800 crore earmarked for modernisation to meet rising fuel costs. "There is a crunch that no one can deny," laments a three-star IAF officer.
".

The reason for the rise in the bills is heavy Su-30 MKI numbers increasing and they being asked to shoulder the load of light fighters like tejas,..Adding another 126 MMRCA birds with 15000 dollar per hour flying cost fighter will be like shooting ourselves in the foot. When the same capacity can be had with much lower operating cost tejas fighters mixed with heavy Su-30 MKis.

And rafale's MLU costs will be another huge price shocker if we go by the mirage-2000 figure. So what does it all do to the IAF capacity?


Thats why we should rationalize our purcahse to justify the capability increment and mreaching the sanctioned 45 squadron strength wih class comparable 4.5th gen fighters in all of them rather than having ubber fancty fighters in just six of them eating all the money and 14 plus squadrons left with 50 years old jag and Mig airframes.

Ofcourse there are a few people here for whom the word budget doesn't matter. I am not writting for them.

Whatever floats your boat!

 

[arnabmit]

@halloweene @Drsomnath999

Can you give an approximate idea of range of A-G scan and track mode for RBE2-AA?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

These are words of IAF serving officials only ..

Whatever floats your boat!