Know Your 'Rafale'

[halloweene]

Any dates available? Even estimated dates.

About 2030 in his press conference Trappier stated 10-15 years of development

 

[Immanuel]

Boeing's bid is far cheaper than your mention of 15 million, even if your amount is right well then the price for advanced super hornet being 15 million cheaper per bird is still better value than the Rafale, considering the life cycle cost is far lower than the rafale and not to mention the savings from lca engine commonality. A full spec Rafale being offered vs full spec Advanced superhornet, well the super hornet is better quite simply due to newer irst, cfts, better aesa, large panel display, common engines.

The Rafale still has no HMCS.

Boeing offers advanced Super Hornet to IAF

There is no plan to adapt the Krypton on the Rafale (there is a possibility but now with Russian crisis not possible) and Harm-E is the latest gen in ARMs, Krpyton hasn't been upgraded in years.

 

[p2prada]

The Rafale still has no HMCS.

You are once again talking about French Rafale.

India Rafale has the option of HMDS. Ever heard of TopSight and TopOwl? Both more advanced than JHMCS.

There is no plan to adapt the Krypton on the Rafale (there is a possibility but now with Russian crisis not possible) and Harm-E is the latest gen in ARMs, Krpyton hasn't been upgraded in years.

The US and EU have only sanctioned direct military sales to Russia, indirect sales like re-exporting equipment to India is still allowed. There is plenty of French equipment that Russia re-exports to other countries.

So, KH-31 on Rafale is allowed.

Google Translate

According to French newsletter "TTU", the French company Dassault Aviation began negotiations c Russian company "Tactical Missiles Corporation" on the possibility of integration of Russian missiles in fighter weapon Dassault Rafale. This option can play a role in the context of the sale of Rafale fighter jets to India.

 

[p2prada]

About 2030 in his press conference Trappier stated 10-15 years of development

Is this UK-France specific or available for export?

 

[Zebra]

That price is for the USN. And EW suite in the Super Hornet is different from the Growler.

What the Growler carries is entirely different.

This is a Growler.

Do you see those pods hanging off the aircraft? Those are not available for export.

AERO INDIA: Boeing reveals plans for 'Growler Lite' - 2/13/2009 - Flight Global


What it means is the aircraft is not the Growler. Without those pods, the aircraft is worthless.

As the article says the ALQ-99 pods are no longer in production. The Americans have launched a new program called NGJ which is again not available for export.

The EW suite offered for export is a basic suite which is far inferior to Spectra. You can say it is at least more than a generation behind Spectra. LCA's EW suite is more advanced than the one on SH B2 today.

Yeah, you are absolutely right, the Growler carries is entirely different.

But see these.....

In fact, according to Boeing officials, the electronic warfare EA-18G might benefit more from the modifications than the regular Super Hornet.
Boeing shows off advanced Super Hornet demonstrator - 8/28/2013 - Flight Global

Although Boeing and Northrop Grumman are leading the project, the upgrades are applicable for future USN Super Hornet and EA-18G modernisation efforts, Morley says.
Boeing to demo Super Hornet enhancements in summer - 4/9/2013 - Flight Global

Document: Boeing's Advanced Super Hornet - USNI News

Does it mean that after these upgrades EA-18G can be fitted with EWP...!...?

Well, EWP is a part of Block 3 upgrade anyway.

On top of it....improved engine, with 25 to 30% less parts, lighter weight, more thrust and they are trying to improve it's efficiency at medium to high altitudes operations.

 

[p2prada]

Yeah, you are absolutely right, the Growler carries is entirely different.

Does it mean that after these upgrades EA-18G can be fitted with EWP...!...?

Well, EWP is a part of Block 3 upgrade anyway.

On top of it....improved engine, with 25 to 30% less parts, lighter weight, more thrust and they are trying to improve it's efficiency at medium to high altitudes operations.

That only makes the USN better. It doesn't affect India.

And the USN has not asked for anything from the ASH program. It is just Boeing trying to stay in the game every since they lost to LM for the F-35. Basically their attempts are equal to what Mig has been trying with Mig-35. It is just desperation. SH is set to end production in 2016.

Boeing says they can deliver all of this stuff if they are given $1 Billion. The only aspect of the program that has progressed is the new EDE engine. USN doesn't want the EWP, CFT, or IRST. So India has to pay for all this, along with airframe modifications.

As far as the USN is concerned, the Block 3 doesn't exist. Right now they have a program called NGAD where they may ask for a modified F-35C or a new aircraft. They are still deciding. And they want this new aircraft only around 2030.

Navy starts industry race for next generation fighter to replace Super Hornet, Growler - Washington Times

 

[Immanuel]

^^^

It is the USN that is testing the features, Boeing like any other airframer is trying to score deals for these upgrades but the testing is being done by the USN and so far they are pleased. Also you seem to forget these upgrades are inevitable, the oldest Super Hornet approach around 5k hrs of flight and require MLU at 6K hrs of flight hence these upgrades will happen since F-35C is not available in numbers any time soon. Also, the Newest Super hornets for USN are still being delivered and will be MLUed with Block 4 upgrades sometime next decade. You clearly forget the SH is the most economical & versatile aircraft the USN operated in a long time and this is why they constantly have supported its growth. For what it does and the price off the shelf and costs over time have been to the USN's pleasing.

Navy Tests Stealth-Like Features for Super Hornet | Military.com


Do you really think a 6th gen fighter will miraculously replace over 500 Super Hornets in 2030. They by all means expect a 6th fighter to be ready for testing mid or late next decade to start replacing the oldest super hornets, which by then would have had over 8000hrs of flight around 2030+ The 500 or so super hornet would be replaced over a decade begining 2032 if the 6th gen fighter program faces no delays.

 

[halloweene]

@ P2prada about EFCAS, No idea. At the moment, definition phase, it is french/Uk specific. But they officially stated that after preliminary work it would be opened to foreign partners.

 

[harsh]

Hey
I am new to this thread but just want to say one f-18 chances are now lost. After all those hectic evaluation of 2 years done by iaf we know that only two aircrafts are better suited to our needs. Both are new designs. With new generation radars. Even have new type of engines. Both are European. There is no f18, f16, mig 35 or gripen. So we know that these aircraft are not so advanced to fullfil our needs. Now are we discussing this .
The only question today we have
1. Is it justified to buy rafale on the those sky high cost?
2. Can we make tejus so advanced to cancel rafale deal and save some tax payers money?
3. Or can we bring those sky high cost of rafale on the ground on negotiation table now? If yes how?

 

[p2prada]

^^^

It is the USN that is testing the features, Boeing like any other airframer is trying to score deals for these upgrades but the testing is being done by the USN and so far they are pleased. Also you seem to forget these upgrades are inevitable, the oldest Super Hornet approach around 5k hrs of flight and require MLU at 6K hrs of flight hence these upgrades will happen since F-35C is not available in numbers any time soon. Also, the Newest Super hornets for USN are still being delivered and will be MLUed with Block 4 upgrades sometime next decade. You clearly forget the SH is the most economical & versatile aircraft the USN operated in a long time and this is why they constantly have supported its growth. For what it does and the price off the shelf and costs over time have been to the USN's pleasing.

So far the USN has only shown interest in the CFT. Everybody wants CFT now, it is no big deal.

There is no talk of the USN Super Hornets being enhanced with more stealth optimized airframe, nothing about internal IRST, there is no news about a new gen EW suite like Spectra (it won't be meant for IAF anyway).

A Block 4 upgrade to the SH is entirely worthless for the IAF. Whatever the USN wants after 2020 they can have it. It will in no way affect the IAF. Meaning, even if the IAF chooses the SH for MRCA, these upgrades the USN wants will be well after MRCA deal is done and sealed. Hence entirely worthless. If the USN wants a Spectra like EW suite post 2020, you can be guaranteed that it isn't meant for the IAF.

And when the IAF SH comes up for MLUs, Boeing is going to come up with a nice big bill for the upgrade since the USN won't be paying for it.

New gen internal IRST, new gen MAWS, new gen DIRCM, a new gen Spectra, all of these are coming on Rafale within this decade. All packaged into an airframe that matches the F-22 in ACM.

Do you really think a 6th gen fighter will miraculously replace over 500 Super Hornets in 2030. They by all means expect a 6th fighter to be ready for testing mid or late next decade to start replacing the oldest super hornets, which by then would have had over 8000hrs of flight around 2030+ The 500 or so super hornet would be replaced over a decade begining 2032 if the 6th gen fighter program faces no delays.

The USN is apparently looking at a 2025 IOC. We can expect the last SH to leave before 2035. You forget that apart from this NGAD, they also have the UCLASS program. So it will be a combination of NGAD and UCLASS that will replace the SH.

That's not enough for IAF. The MRCA will have to undergo two upgrades upon entering service. The first one starting in 2030 and the second after 2045. That will allow it to remain in service until 2060. If we choose the SH, then IAF will have to foot the entire bill for upgrades by themselves since the USN would have helped fund only one upgrade. Nobody is that stupid. What's more annoying is the USN planned upgrade will only bring the SH up to the level of Rafale that is already flying today, which makes the entire exercise totally pointless.

 

[p2prada]

Hey
I am new to this thread but just want to say one f-18 chances are now lost. After all those hectic evaluation of 2 years done by iaf we know that only two aircrafts are better suited to our needs. Both are new designs. With new generation radars. Even have new type of engines. Both are European. There is no f18, f16, mig 35 or gripen. So we know that these aircraft are not so advanced to fullfil our needs. Now are we discussing this .
The only question today we have
1. Is it justified to buy rafale on the those sky high cost?
2. Can we make tejus so advanced to cancel rafale deal and save some tax payers money?
3. Or can we bring those sky high cost of rafale on the ground on negotiation table now? If yes how?

True. Considering SH was never shortlisted, it never made the cut like the other two.

Irrespective of all the noise being made about costs, the Rafale is actually affordable because our threat environment demands it.

LCA can never come to the level of Rafale even if we throw twice the amount of Rafale's money on it.

The current process is the best way for us to get the best price for Rafale.

 

[p2prada]

@ P2prada about EFCAS, No idea. At the moment, definition phase, it is french/Uk specific. But they officially stated that after preliminary work it would be opened to foreign partners.

How do they define preliminary work?

Is it like the F-35 where the Americans develop the radar, engine and all other important aspects and then tell the others to buy it or will it be like Typhoon where each partner nation will have his work cut out, one country develops the engine, another the radar, another the EW suite and so on?

 

[Dhairya Yadav]

Has America come out with any concepts?

no. but if we go by American definition, Dassault neuron and Boeing X45 can be considered as 5.5 gen technology demonstrator.

 

[halloweene]

How do they define preliminary work?

Is it like the F-35 where the Americans develop the radar, engine and all other important aspects and then tell the others to buy it or will it be like Typhoon where each partner nation will have his work cut out, one country develops the engine, another the radar, another the EW suite and so on?

Definition phase. eg mono or bi engine? range required? CATOBAR compliant? Tyes of sensors? REmotely optionnally manned or pure UCAS? etc.

 

[ersakthivel]

Crucial file on procurement of jet trainers goes missing from defence ministry | idrw.org

 

[Zebra]

Defence News - The 'miscellaneous' blunder in India's Rafale deal

Wednesday, September 17, 2014
By : Rediff

Hence, it can be surmised that these 'assorted' items were either skilfully or inadvertently omitted from the Scorpene bid or simply tagged on as 'miscellaneous' only to be negotiated later, once the submarines construction has started leaving the MoD and Navy no alternative but to acquire them.

In what appears to be a rerun of the Scorpene project, around 50-60 'un-priced' items are believed to have been listed as miscellaneous' in Dassault's offer for the Rafale which emerged as L1 or the lowest bidder in the MMRCA tender ahead of the Eurofighter.

Consequently, each Rafale is now reportedly priced between $110-120 million.

 

[Immanuel]

P2P most of post is all but foolish as always, I have shown enough links to show that indeed USN is actively testing the SH's Block 3 upgrades as when they are available, you also forget the USN SH's are eventually going to get MLUed it is a matter of fact since they slowly approach 6000 flight hrs and these MLU version is what is on offer for the IAF as a starting point. As for the bill for the Rafale for MLU, you can sure the French will have an even bigger fatter bill for the Rafale's upgrade eventually. Just look at the big fat bill for Mirage and the upgraded aircraft will not be able to match even the MK-1 LCA in terms of avionics.

Current facts, Rafale's radar is inferior to the SH's APG-79, Growler in its full spec out jams/out performs the Rafale as a full scale EW/EA aircraft, The SH out performs the Rafale in BVR due to its radar combo and Aim-120D. To say that USN SH upgrade will bring to level of the Rafale is all but a sad joke, Rafale doesn't even have a HMD and its IFR sticks out like a sore thumb currently while SH pilots have been cueing targets for a over a decade. If its the proposed Indian Super Hornet we discuss, we should dicuss Large panel displays (this alone gives the Rafale a kick in the tail end as situational awareness would be far better, a twin seat SH would have two such large displays, new gen MAWS (SH already has a good one), good IRST, common engines.

To say the Rafale matches the F-22 is all but laughable.

http://www.boeing.com/assets/pdf/bd..._hornet/advanced_super_hornet_media_brief.pdf

I know the SH ship has sailed for India but to think Rafale is the best out there is delusional at best. Super hornet remains one of the most combat proven, reliable & importantly reasonably economical birds of our time.
I would also very much appreciate you stop respond to my posts. I should be on your ignore list.

 

[p2prada]

To say the Rafale matches the F-22 is all but laughable.

Check after 2 min. Rafale matches the F-22 in ACM with a gun kill.

Rafale pulling 10G standard.

I know the SH ship has sailed for India but to think Rafale is the best out there is delusional at best.

Then can you explain why it didn't make the shortlist? Or we would have seen three aircraft shortlisted.

Maybe Admiral Arun Prakash claiming Rafale to be superior to SH wasn't enough.

 

[Mad Indian]

Then can you explain why it didn't make the shortlist? Or we would have seen three aircraft shortlisted.

Maybe Admiral Arun Prakash claiming Rafale to be superior to SH wasn't enough.

Or may be our fanboys here know more about the plane they have not even seen than the pilots who tested them

 

[halloweene]

i'd better not interven cause i'd get rude (towards a palne i do love, F-18). Have fun!

BTW, guess who is H.? And no the video didn't come from Dassault.