Kaveri Engine

[Scrutator]

F-22 has variable cycle engines, If my memory is correct.

Memory not serving you right here.

 

[Alok Arya]

Kaveri snecma going for 30:1 pressure ratio , 92 -95 kn wet thrust , ~ 1050 kg weight , fourth stage blisk , scb with thermobaric coating , 55 - 60 kn dry , with tet of ~1600 *c . Also gtre working with their own separate engine . Very unconfirmed sources , so please not ask me for link . I only wish dream come true .

 

[kunal1123]

Kaveri snecma going for 30:1 pressure ratio , 92 -95 kn wet thrust , ~ 1050 kg weight , fourth stage blisk , scb with thermobaric coating , 50 - 60 kn dry , with tet of ~1600 *c . Also gtre working with their own separate engine . Very unconfirmed sources , so please not ask me for link . I only wish dream come true .

good but i get disappointed for there target they must have tried for 60-70 dry and 100-105 wet that make them use in all three lca mk1/mk2 AMCA. well let see the result.
current ge 404 thrust 53.9/89.8, ge414- 62/98, ifthere dry thrust come close to 60 then our kaveri will perfactly placed in middle.

 

[Alok Arya]

good but i get disappointed for there target they must have tried for 60-70 dry and 100-105 wet that make them use in all three lca mk1/mk2 AMCA. well let see the result.
current ge 404 thrust 53.9/89.8, ge414- 62/98, ifthere dry thrust come close to 60 then our kaveri will perfactly placed in middle.

yes you are right , but first replacement of f404 come alive then we can target for higher thrust variant . And gtre also working separately , they can come with higher thrust . If this Kaveri snecma certified 2020 , we will have a better engine than f404 for Tejas mark 1A , with almost 70% indigenous content . Saving atleast 5 to 6 million usd per plane . We can mass produce , export . Further tot come through f16 and rafale mii deal for engine for both Tejas mark 2 and amca. If gtre performs in between it will be bonanza. GTRE have second generation scb , and further generation differ only in composition mainly . So going to further generation is rather easy I think . They also have preliminary blisk , but advance blisk perhaps in still development. One area where they totally lack is thermobaric coating . Let's hope for good .

 

[Vijyes]

yes you are right , but first replacement of f404 come alive then we can target for higher thrust variant . And gtre also working separately , they can come with higher thrust . If this Kaveri snecma certified 2020 , we will have a better engine than f404 for Tejas mark 1A , with almost 70% indigenous content . Saving atleast 5 to 6 million usd per plane . We can mass produce , export . Further tot come through f16 and rafale mii deal for engine for both Tejas mark 2 and amca. If gtre performs in between it will be bonanza. GTRE have second generation scb , and further generation differ only in composition mainly . So going to further generation is rather easy I think . They also have preliminary blisk , but advance blisk perhaps in still development. One area where they totally lack is thermobaric coating . Let's hope for good .

With 70% indigenous content? Isn't kaveri fully indigenous? What is the imported part if the blades and blisk are indian?

 

[Alok Arya]

With 70% indigenous content? Isn't kaveri fully indigenous? What is the imported part if the blades and blisk are indian?

Blisk and scb from snecma perhaps till indigenous replacement in Kaveri snecma engine .

 

[kunal1123]

yes you are right , but first replacement of f404 come alive then we can target for higher thrust variant . And gtre also working separately , they can come with higher thrust . If this Kaveri snecma certified 2020 , we will have a better engine than f404 for Tejas mark 1A , with almost 70% indigenous content . Saving atleast 5 to 6 million usd per plane . We can mass produce , export . Further tot come through f16 and rafale mii deal for engine for both Tejas mark 2 and amca. If gtre performs in between it will be bonanza. GTRE have second generation scb , and further generation differ only in composition mainly . So going to further generation is rather easy I think . They also have preliminary blisk , but advance blisk perhaps in still development. One area where they totally lack is thermobaric coating . Let's hope for good .

70% indigenous content?? is thermometric coating consist 30% ????

the problem is not we have better engine than f404 but we have less capable then f414. and it is well known that kaveri is able to produce 52-55 kn dry thrust successfully , wet thrust where it lack. so if they are modifying why not increase dry thrust to f414 (62-65) level that will allow them to use in amca(well until it is updated)

 

[Vijyes]

Blisk and scb from snecma perhaps till indigenous replacement in Kaveri snecma engine .

So, is this the technology France was saying it will transfer to india if rafales are ordered to the tune of 200? Interesting. If they indeed transfer technology of these 2 and stealth RAM paint, it is worth ordering another 162 (9 squadrons) of Rafale. 100kN is what one can ideally expect from kaveri finally. Even GE doesn't have better. That would pave the way for huge orders for AMCA.

 

[Vijyes]

70% indigenous content?? is thermometric coating consist 30% ????

the problem is not we have better engine than f404 but we have less capable then f414. and it is well known that kaveri is able to produce 52-55 kn dry thrust successfully , wet thrust where it lack. so if they are modifying why not increase dry thrust to f414 (62-65) level that will allow them to use in amca(well until it is updated)

It is not possible to randomly increase dry thrust I guess. Otherwise people would have used 80kN dry and 90kN AB in GE F404 as dry thrust is always preferable due to high fuel efficiency. After burners guzzle fuel.
65-67kN is the dry thrust I expect for super cruise in AMCA. I am not hopeful for 72kN. Even GE doesn't have that much. So, if you are stating that India should get that much right from the first model, you are over expecting

 

[Scrutator]

Hey Everyone, I have decided to quit this forum. I have consistently noticed the overbearing attitude of the folks running this forum. They encourage folks who subscribe to their very narrow worldview - even if it comes with falsehoods, intimidation and insults; while at the same time they suppress facts, science and any view that maybe even narrowly different from their own. I am not very comfortable with authoritarian regimes.
It was fun interacting with several of you on very interesting topics. Most of you have a healthy curiosity and a thirst for learning - glad to be part of that mix!

 

[rudresh]

Hey Everyone, I have decided to quit this forum. I have consistently noticed the overbearing attitude of the folks running this forum. They encourage folks who subscribe to their very narrow worldview - even if it comes with falsehoods, intimidation and insults; while at the same time they suppress facts, science and any view that maybe even narrowly different from their own. I am not very comfortable with authoritarian regimes.
It was fun interacting with several of you on very interesting topics. Most of you have a healthy curiosity and a thirst for learning - glad to be part of that mix!

No need to simply quit. I have just gone through your replies and are pragmatic.Some people express kaveri cannot go to 90kn just because M88 cannot achieve 90kn. Replys should make some sense at least but some replys doesn't carry it. I too got irritated and left that time now I am back after 4 years. People who know reality will segregate useful from
garbage. I think some people like your sensible replys and no need quit........... I really like people like alok arya who has some good knowledge and comment/reply properly.

 

[rudresh]

As I know kaveri is not a variable cycle engine it plays with the bypass to keep the thrust and to keep the core safe at the same time. It is because of hot Indian climate. A variable cycle engine will give optimal thrust at all the altitudes and conditions and for that the metallurgy simply dictates the terms but kaveri has other plans to do it ....but with more fuel without sacrificing core......should others teach Indians the art of juggad.

 

[rudresh]

I think those MIGs with RD 33 have a bigger a$$ than kaveri and may have to be modified. And if modified the thrust will be on the positive side only ......that may take some more time.That may serve amca as well.some thoughts..........

 

[rudresh]

Kaveri snecma going for 30:1 pressure ratio , 92 -95 kn wet thrust , ~ 1050 kg weight , fourth stage blisk , scb with thermobaric coating , 55 - 60 kn dry , with tet of ~1600 *c . Also gtre working with their own separate engine . Very unconfirmed sources , so please not ask me for link . I only wish dream come true .

90 - 95 kn means French are playing hide and seek ......so even the GTRE should play one with Gathak or RD 33 equivalent to keep the core and make a slightly enlarged inlet along with a bigger outlet Similar to RD 33 to catch French in their own game. This may not be good for French.......they need to support whole heartedly otherwise Ge 414 EPE will give a nice kick to French games and kaveri too.......

 

[rudresh]

Kaveri needs SCB as the initial design for thrust was 80kN but was later changed to 100kN+. So, SCB is in need. Even things like blisk is needed. Also, there is a reason India is negotiating with US for hot engine technology for variable cycle as kaveri might be having a problem there too

Hot engine tech ..........may be a dream until kaveri suceeds with all bells and whistles. Even though we get it also ......they will not be giving away those alloy compositions or its related tech. So no use asking.

 

[Vijyes]

Hot engine tech ..........may be a dream until kaveri suceeds with all bells and whistles. Even though we get it also ......they will not be giving away those alloy compositions or its related tech. So no use asking.

India already has second generation SCB. Alloy compositions can be ascertained by elemental analysis of the substance by reaction with different chemicals. India didn't have it in 2007 and thus France refused to share the technology. But now, India is close to developing it on its own. People are now more amenable to transferring technology to India before India does it by itself for a fee.
India needs the advanced version technology and manufacturing capability. That can be got by ordering 200 rafales and imposing the conditions. Parrikar has already done that and Safran has agreed and is finalising the engine. They're going to deliver it in early 2018 (to avoid risks of a khangress government) for more rafale orders. They have announced several times that if 200 rafales are ordered, they will transfer several technology too

 

[rudresh]

India already has second generation SCB. Alloy compositions can be ascertained by elemental analysis of the substance by reaction with different chemicals. India didn't have it in 2007 and thus France refused to share the technology. But now, India is close to developing it on its own. People are now more amenable to transferring technology to India before India does it by itself for a fee.
India needs the advanced version technology and manufacturing capability. That can be got by ordering 200 rafales and imposing the conditions. Parrikar has already done that and Safran has agreed and is finalising the engine. They're going to deliver it in early 2018 (to avoid risks of a khangress government) for more rafale orders. They have announced several times that if 200 rafales are ordered, they will transfer several technology too

Please take some time to answer my questions

I know that we have made some advancement in scb but tell me why can't we completely implement it?

What if French show middle finger after 200 rafales.

What rafale can do extra that the present air crafts in iaf cannot do ?

What is so great about rafale fighter ? What are the several technologies that they will transfer?

What is the cost of 200 rafales?

Why shouldn't we think of 500 amca instead of those 200 rafales?

Will those 200 rafale fighters come with kaveri engine,Indian radar and technology that we have developed now with a lot of pain?

How does it help amca? If not what is the use of that tot ?

How much technology the French have transferred to India for the soooo called shakthi engine after so many engines are made even though there was a mandatory clause for 70% ToT? And why is HAL developing HTFE?

 

[rudresh]

India already has second generation SCB. Alloy compositions can be ascertained by elemental analysis of the substance by reaction with different chemicals. India didn't have it in 2007 and thus France refused to share the technology. But now, India is close to developing it on its own. People are now more amenable to transferring technology to India before India does it by itself for a fee.
India needs the advanced version technology and manufacturing capability. That can be got by ordering 200 rafales and imposing the conditions. Parrikar has already done that and Safran has agreed and is finalising the engine. They're going to deliver it in early 2018 (to avoid risks of a khangress government) for more rafale orders. They have announced several times that if 200 rafales are ordered, they will transfer several technology too

I think even now we should have gone with americans from the point we had some issues with kaveri. Today we could have had some already tested and certified engine

 

[Vijyes]

I think even now we should have gone with americans from the point we had some issues with kaveri. Today we could have had some already tested and certified engine

US outrightly refused technology transfer. Rafale was negotiated only for technology. When India felt doubtful that technology transfer won't take place, they strictly told rafale that the orders will be only after technology transfer. Till then, just 36 rafales were ordered. If France doesn't give a proper engine by 2018, there will be no 200 orders. First, rafale has been asked to prove that they can do it and then handover the built kaveri to india by 2018. Later, the manufacturing lines and technology should be transferred as an offset for additional orders.

Once Rafale is delivered it will be 2027-28, by when AMCA will be ready for serial production. Without AMCA designed yet, India has to meet its urgent needs. That is where rafale comes in. Once AMCA is ready, india will buy only AMCA, LCA and a heavy fighter like PAK-FA. It will take upto 2027-8 for that.

 

[lcafanboy]

Please take some time to answer my questions

I know that we have made some advancement in scb but tell me why can't we completely implement it?

What if French show middle finger after 200 rafales.

What rafale can do extra that the present air crafts in iaf cannot do ?

What is so great about rafale fighter ? What are the several technologies that they will transfer?

What is the cost of 200 rafales?

Why shouldn't we think of 500 amca instead of those 200 rafales?

Will those 200 rafale fighters come with kaveri engine,Indian radar and technology that we have developed now with a lot of pain?

How does it help amca? If not what is the use of that tot ?

How much technology the French have transferred to India for the soooo called shakthi engine after so many engines are made even though there was a mandatory clause for 70% ToT? And why is HAL developing HTFE?

1) We have made advancement in SCB but it is 2nd gen SCB, even if we implement modern turbofans are not only dependent on SCB they have so many processes to extract juice out of it like BLISK (we don't have), ceramic blade coating, thermobaric coating and several other things that we may not even know. So even if we implement only slight improvement will be done and won't be useful.

2) No middle finger Modi govt has put on hold Rafale deal and only after they transfer jet engine technology they will sign the deal for additional fighters. Even the initial payment was given after they started showing result that is bench testing, they have only 1-1/2 yrs before elections to sign the deal therefore they are going to test it on LCA next year so Rafale deal can be signed.

3)Rafale is out and out 4xxx gen fighter now with 5th gen avionics and ew and will be most likely 5th gen after dedira if you compare with F-35 which is VLO and not F-22. Rafale can do sead & dead easily even under harsh condition no other IAF plane can do right now.

4) Fly away cost of Rafale is almost 1.5 times that of SU30 but operational cost over 40yrs will be quite lower than SU30 mki.

Further India needs almost 4000-6000 jet engines over 20 yrs time which will cost us $25-30 billion over that period in Forex which will now be made in India which will save money so practically Rafales are free for India.

5) Agreed very good idea to buy 500 AMCA, do you have your plane ready? as we need it right now, do you have plants ready? has it been tested/proven, IAF sqdn strength is down to just 30 sanctioned 42, minimum need is 45 and if no new plane will be added will be down to just 13 Su30 mki, 3 jaguars, 3 mig 29upg, and 2.5 mirage, total 21.5 sqdns by 2022 as rest all mig 21s, mig27s, pre-2000 jaguars, will be retired. Can you fight 2 front war with 21-22 sqdns and with 60% availability, think man?

6) No. Indian radar and engine can be used for LCA & AMCA

7) Rafale will come with MII part, the very companies involved in making parts for Rafale will supply for AMCA too like composite body parts made by Reliance Dssault JV company. KAVERI will be further developed to K-10 by Snecma with 115-120kn for AMCA, this engine can be manufactured in Safran plant Goa..

8) We are getting Jet engine technology not only for Kaveri but also for HAL HTFE-25 too which ahs 25kn dry power and will be improved to 35-38KN and with after burner 55-57KN.