Kaveri Engine

[Vijyes]

What can you say other than this================?

Don't say anything. Sometimes it is better to keep quiet than speak unnecessarily.

 

[TPFscopes]

Whether gripen engine is ge f404 or not, it definitely is not Swedish engine. It has imports from USA big time, especially in critical components. Its non critical component like nut and bolt or even the FADEC (software) may be Swedish. But by all means gripen is not worth buying

RM12 engine which was used in gripen A/B/C/D is designed by Volvo Aero (swedish company) with GE supplied core and little assistance because Volvo already have experience of RM8 which was designed and manufactured by P&W and Volvo.
but as of now, GKN ( british) tookover Volvo Aero. It many be a reason that Saab shifts to GE for F414

 

[TPFscopes]

What can you say other than this================?

Already posted. http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/kaveri-engine.5097/page-106#post-1341436

 

[BON PLAN]

Drdo/GTRE in partnership with Safran is developing a 98Kn thrust (with afterburning) turbofan engine by using m88 core and retaining upto 60% of the engine components from kaveri to power Tejas mk1a and mk2 MRCA. All these modified Comoments (including second generation single crystal turbine blades) will be co-developed with the help of military technical mentoring by safran. This new unnamed turbofan engine is always referred to as safranised Kaveri.

First time I read this.
So far it was the "actual" Kaveri model (near 80kn) that was to be airworthy. But maybe are you right.

 

[Vijyes]

Actual Kaveri of 81kN is a waste. Minimum 90kN is needed. 100kN if possible by upgrading in the line of F414, is much better

 

[TPFscopes]

Actual Kaveri of 81kN is a waste. Minimum 90kN is needed. 100kN if possible by upgrading in the line of F414, is much better

Kaveri GTX with 81Kn is a waste than what is M88 ?

 

[Vijyes]

Kaveri GTX with 81Kn is a waste than what is M88 ?

Not compared to M88 but F404. Kaveri should at least reach F404 of Rd93 level to be considered successful which is 55/90kN. India is unlikely to use M88 type engine as its designs of LCA or AMCA don't match. For Indian usage, 81kN is waste

 

[airtel]

Kaveri should at least reach F404

What are the specifications of GE-404
Which is currently used in Tejas ??
Dry thrust - wet thrust ? Thrust to weight ratio?
Compare that to kaveri....

 

[lcafanboy]

Kaveri GTX with 81Kn is a waste than what is M88 ?

First, Check the WEIGHT please.

M-88 weighs 890 kgs only dry thrust 50kn wet 75 kn, with eco core weigh same dry thrust 60kn wet 90 kn plus low Infra red signature due to 2 channel cooling with 8000 hours of life, and 21 replaceable modules so no need to test even after engine repairing just replace the defective module no need for complete engine overhaul, one of the most modern aero engine even better than EJ-200.

Now for Kaveri weight is around 1250-1300 kgs, dry thrust around 50 kn wet 81 kn, engine life at best questionable, needs complete overhaul and testing on bed before reuse..........

 

[TPFscopes]

Not compared to M88 but F404. Kaveri should at least reach F404 of Rd93 level to be considered successful which is 55/90kN. India is unlikely to use M88 type engine as its designs of LCA or AMCA don't match. For Indian usage, 81kN is waste

Have you heard about AURA/GHATAK ?
KAVERI GTX without reheat stage is quite suitable for its use.
LCA and AMCA can't limit the use of any development.

 

[TPFscopes]

First, Check the WEIGHT please.

M-88 weighs 890 kgs only dry thrust 50kn wet 75 kn, with eco core weigh same dry thrust 60kn wet 90 kn plus low Infra red signature due to 2 channel cooling with 8000 hours of life, and 21 replaceable modules so no need to test even after engine repairing just replace the defective module no need for complete engine overhaul, one of the most modern aero engine even better than EJ-200.

Now for Kaveri weight is around 1250-1300 kgs, dry thrust around 50 kn wet 81 kn, engine life at best questionable, needs complete overhaul and testing on bed before reuse..........

When someone comparing the Engines on the basis of wet thurst than why can't I compare it with M88.

Now if I compare Kaveri with F-404
Dry Weight :
Kaveri : 1186Kg (at Russian rest facility)
F404: 1134kg

Length/Diameter
Kaveri: 137.4/35.8 inch
F404: 154/35

Thurst:
Kaveri: 52/81 KN (successful) , 52/95+ KN Desired
F404: 53.9/89.8Kn

Now, I think it's quite comparable.

I shared an interview of Snecma CEO in this thread. He said that M88-4E is the last variant and company wants to develop another Engine for future aspects.

M88-4E made its debut in 2012 and has thurst of 50/83 KN

 

[lcafanboy]

M88-4E made its debut in 2012 and has thurst of 50/83 KN

Nope it's 60/90 kn. For current Rafales it needs to be derated to 55/83 kn as air intakes will have to changed (needs bigger intakes) if 60/90 kn engine has to be used and that means changing all the internal setup and complete testing which will take 5-7 years.......

Every modern Fighter engine has dry thrust that is 2/3 of entire thrust, that is 50/75, 60/90, etc.........

 

[TPFscopes]

Nope it's 60/90 kn. For current Rafales it needs to be derated to 55/83 kn as air intakes will have to changed (needs bigger intakes) if 60/90 kn engine has to be used and that means changing all the internal setup and complete testing which will take 5-7 years.......

Every modern Fighter engine has dry thrust that is 2/3 of entire thrust, that is 50/75, 60/90, etc.........

Safran still struggling to achieve 20000lbs or 88Kn
http://alert5.com/2016/03/17/safran-wants-to-boost-m88s-thrust-to-20000-lbs/

and later in an interview to a aviation magzine, CEO said the M88-4E is the last variant of M88
source already shared in this thread.

 

[smestarz]

And just an innocent question, what do you do with the faulty module?
A module, as I understand is compartmentalization of parts..

So in engines where parts are replaced like the Russian engines, the mechanics try to identify the problem and then replace the faulty parts, Time consuming but in a way cheaper,

In modular way, the entire module is replaced, Thus parts which are otherwise fine, or still have say more than half service life would be replaced. These parts (depending on the Standard operating procedure ) would be recycled. Thus with modular engine, the advantage is higher availability. as there is no real need to identify the faulty part, just replace the module. But this will end up being expensive if some of the parts are not recycled, and if they are then it can in a way be problematic for the engine (till the engine is overhauled). But on other hand, replacing faulty parts will be time consuming but cheaper and could be problematic till time of overhaul.

Russian engines are meant to be robust, and made cheaper, In case there is problem with engine, they replace the entire engine and then the faulty engine is repaired by the mechanics at their own sweet time.

Thus the Russian engine is designed to be cheap and robust and during the lifetime of the plane, the total cost spent on the engine does in a way become similar or cheaper than the total cost spent on french engine due to expensive parts.

First, Check the WEIGHT please.

M-88 weighs 890 kgs only dry thrust 50kn wet 75 kn, with eco core weigh same dry thrust 60kn wet 90 kn plus low Infra red signature due to 2 channel cooling with 8000 hours of life, and 21 replaceable modules so no need to test even after engine repairing just replace the defective module no need for complete engine overhaul, one of the most modern aero engine even better than EJ-200.

Now for Kaveri weight is around 1250-1300 kgs, dry thrust around 50 kn wet 81 kn, engine life at best questionable, needs complete overhaul and testing on bed before reuse..........

 

[Kchontha]

AFAIK Ghatak is the definitive powerplant of the ADA's yet to be produced aura/UCAV which is a version of Kaveri without its afterburner. Former MOD had also referred to the same engine in the parliament while replying to a query. But some members are using the term Ghatak as synonymous with aura/UCAV. It is quite confusing.

 

[TPFscopes]

AFAIK Ghatak is the definitive powerplant of the ADA's yet to be produced aura/UCAV which is a version of Kaveri without its afterburner. Former MOD had also referred to the same engine in the parliament while replying to a query. But some members are using the term Ghatak as synonymous with aura/UCAV. It is quite confusing.

AURA stands for Autonomous Unmanned Research Aircraft which is a Technology Demonstrator while Ghatak will be the full fledged UCAV.

But some (very few) open sources states that ghatak will be the derivative of Kaveri GTX with Dry thurst stage only.

 

[Flame Thrower]

AURA stands for Autonomous Unmanned Research Aircraft which is a Technology Demonstrator while Ghatak will be the full fledged UCAV.

But some (very few) open sources states that ghatak will be the derivative of Kaveri GTX with Dry thurst stage only.

To my knowledge, Ghatak is Kaveri engine without after burner.

Ghatak engine is to be used in AURA.

Though Aura is a TD, it was planned to be a UCAV, just like LCA started it's life as TD.

Apart from this, is Ghatak a new UCAV program or I mixed up info. Please provide clarification, any sources to back up the explanation would be great.

 

[Vijyes]

To my knowledge, Ghatak is Kaveri engine without after burner.

Ghatak engine is to be used in AURA.

Though Aura is a TD, it was planned to be a UCAV, just like LCA started it's life as TD.

Apart from this, is Ghatak a new UCAV program or I mixed up info. Please provide clarification, any sources to back up the explanation would be great.

Don't you think that 52kN thrust is excessive for a UAV?

 

[Flame Thrower]

Don't you think that 52kN thrust is excessive for a UAV?

I am not an aero expert, I read stuff.

These days, it is hard to find credible info on high profile projects.

 

[airtel]

Don't you think that 52kN thrust is excessive for a UAV?

no ........Aura is a Kind of Bomber .
even Europeans are using non afterburner variant of M88 on nEUROn .
52 kn thrust is not necessary , it may be less/more too .