Kashmir conflict-India should act now?

[Flint]

Yueballi, the constitution of India can be amended by our parliament, like any other democracy

Thank you for allowing me to express my opinion!
But what is wrong with questioning the Indian or any other countries constitution? Why shouldn´t an obsolete or unfair constitution be changed? E.g. I am not the only Swede who wishes to abolish the Swedish monarchy. For that we need to change our constitution. This can be done legally. I hope it is the same in India. The problem is the Swedish majority still support our monarchy. So there is a lot of job to to in order to change public opinion.

 

[MMuthu]

If you ask me, Let us do the covert operations internally, kill all the seperatists..... no one should dare to come to join in a seperatist movement... Crush them with Iron hands like Srilanka did with the LTTE.

Provide job opportunities to all Kahmiris, keep them in a job, they will not listen to the jihadi's anymore... if some repel... eliminate them with no signs.

Provide good education to Kashmiri children... because educated people cannot be brainwashed easily like the pakistan students brainwashed.

If there is another war with Pakistan, then there should be no Pakistan any more... either India should survive or Pakistan should survive... It should be a end game.

Too many lives have been sacrificed.

 

[MMuthu]

Thank you for allowing me to express my opinion!
But what is wrong with questioning the Indian or any other countries constitution? Why shouldn´t an obsolete or unfair constitution be changed? E.g. I am not the only Swede who wishes to abolish the Swedish monarchy. For that we need to change our constitution. This can be done legally. I hope it is the same in India. The problem is the Swedish majority still support our monarchy. So there is a lot of job to to in order to change public opinion.

Well, we dont believe that our Constitution needs any change, Thank you.

 

[Flint]

Muthu, being a Marathi myself, I can testify that Tamils share a lot with Marathis.

Do you know, for instance, that the architecture of the Ellora Cave Temples comes from Tamil Nadu?

Our strength lies in this.... Unity in Diversity.

I am a Tamil, I share nothing common in between me and a Gujarathi or a Marathi.... but when it comes to patriotism or unity or if we face a threat, we are one and inseperable.

 

[MMuthu]

Muthu, being a Marathi, I can testify that Tamils share a lot with Marathis.

Do you know, for instance, that the architecture of the Ellora Cave Temples comes from Tamil Nadu?

Yes we do.. but I mean to say our daily activities say food, North Indian prefers wheat but South prefer rice... the way we celebrate the festival... there are some thing we share and there are something that we have unique.

One example, The only state which does not celebrate Diwali is Kerala, I read in an artice that even the Hindus will not celebrate it.

 

[Flint]

The biggest mistake you can make is to try to compare the Indian Constitution with some fundamentalist doctrine.
We Indians believe in "Unity in Diversity". We prefer to celebrate our similarities rather than emphasise the differences. That is our strength, and that is what will lead to the betterment of our people.

Any fool can claim nationhood based on race or religion, but we seek to rise beyond that pettiness.

As Maulana Azad once said:

"Every lover of peace must emphasize similarities"

 

[INDIANBULL]

Well for those chinese and pakistani scum who sometimes come up with this arguement that we as a true democracy should accept to hold a plebicite in kashmir according to the wishes of kashmiri muslims should know this firmly that in no way a democracy means that a bunch of idiots(kashmiris) can misuse its freedom to destablise and disintegrate the democratic nation itself, so in no way democracy and freedom loving people can let this frankenstien to destroy their very own motherland.

Lastly " People in a nation can live freely only when the nation exists and not the vice versa".

 

[Daredevil]

I don´t understand. If India is a democratic country, how come India cannot accept a plebiscit in Kashmir. I am getting the impression Indians do not understand the meaning of democracy. I know most Indians ( and Pakistanis too) have very little education. But at least he forumites here should understand that not accepting the wish of the majority of Kashmiri people is against the principles of democracy.

Please don't lecture us on democracy but then let me attempt to answer your question as to why Plebiscite is not supported by GoI. To do this I need to give some historical background.

1) When India/Pakistan (two-nation theory) were given independence by British, the princely states were given option to accede to either secular Union of India or Islamic Republic of Pakistan. The Maharaja (prince) of Kashmir wanted his state to be independent for a while before he can choose to accede to India or Pakistan and it signed necessary documents with them.

2) Pakistani army supported Tribals from NWFP (the present Taliban comes from here) came to Kashmir to occupy and force it to join Pakistan. As a result, the Maharaja of Kashmir Hari Singh signed the Instrument of Accession with GoI effectively acceding Jammu and Kashmir (J&K) to Union of India.

3) After this, the Indian Army entered J&K to drive away Pakistani tribals and they succeeded in driving away them from Srinagar (present capital of J&K) till the areas of present Line of Control (LOC), after which the then Prime Minister Jawahar Lal Nehru (JLN) went to UN with misplaced trust in it to solve the problem.

4) The UN ruled that Pakistan tribal forces/Army should withdraw completely from J&K and India could maintain minimum military presence and then conduct a plebiscite and decide which dominion J&K population wants to join. But Pakistani forces never withdrew their forces from occupied part of J&K and effectively nulling UN resolution. So, Plebiscite never took place. I have to point here that UN resolutions were non-binding.

5) It is 63 yrs now and there has been lot of blood-shed happened because of Pakistan sponsored terrorism in Indian part of Kashmir and ethnic cleansing of Kashmiri Pandits was perpetrated by Pakistani sponsored terrorists. Elections were held in India Kashmir (from 1957) to select their representatives to the State Assembly as well as Indian Parliament. So, effectively and legally Kashmir is part of India. And can country in right mind doesn't conduct Plebiscite to give away its land.

 

[Flint]

Of course, every state in India has its own unique identity and culture. That is our strength, our mutual respect for differences, but also our belief that we are just one part of a whole.

Yes we do.. but I mean to say our daily activities say food, North Indian prefers wheat but South prefer rice... the way we celebrate the festival... there are some thing we share and there are something that we have unique.

One example, The only state which does not celebrate Diwali is Kerala, I read in an artice that even the Hindus will not celebrate it.

 

[MMuthu]

The problem is the Swedish majority still support our monarchy. So there is a lot of job to to in order to change public opinion.

We are better, we have reletively very, very small part of the population who are not satisfied with our democracy function. some in Kashmir and some in Northeast.

Most of the time they are brain-washed.... None of these people have good education. They will believe that all white liquids are milk.

So there is a lot of job to to in order to change this small public opinion.

 

[yuebaili]

Read your own post carefully, and you will find the magic word. Its democracy at its best.

Also, I would not want a lecture on democracy from a citizen of a country which declared itself neutral, but supplied steel and machine parts to Germany and basically sided with Hitler (to save its own a$$) during WWII.

Another example of the great Swedish democracy.


People didn't even know who their govt was sided with during the cold war, nothing better than the CCP.

As for the Swedish neutrality policy during WWII a lot of things can be criticized. But it happened a long time ago. Most political leaders today were not even born, India and Pakistan did not exist etc. Things were very different. Media was not so alert at that time. Besides during war times I suppose it is not very easy. But after the war a lot of Swedish policies have been discussed and condemned in media as well as by politicians and other individuals.

The Swedish secret collaboration with USA during cold war is indeed embarrassing. And so are many other things that our governments have done. (As an Indian I suppose you are familiar with Bofors scandal. Our former prime minister Olof Palme, who obviously enjoyed a very good reputation especially in the third world, was not unaware of our corrupted transactions with India) But tell me which government is perfect! Democracy as a system has its flaws.Churchil said something like " democracy is the worst system except all other systems that are even worse". The good thing with democracy is that at least you have the right to criticize and try to change what you think is wrong and even demand another government. This is the difference between democracies like Sweden (and I hope India too) and dictatorships like China.

 

[MMuthu]

The good thing with democracy is that at least you have the right to criticize and try to change what you think is wrong and even demand another government. This is the difference between democracies like Sweden (and I hope India too) and dictatorships like China.

Well said.... In democracy the voice of majority speaks.... even one vote counts. Majority of us believe that Kashmir is an integral part of the country. And we dont believe that we need to hold plebiscite in Kashmir. Thanks.

 

[yuebaili]

But how can you know that the Kashmiris wish to belong to India without having a plebiscit? And a plebiscit does not have to be legally binding.

BTW Swedish plebiscits are not legally binding. But e.g. when the majority of Swedes said no to the Euro, our government and all political parties accepted the decision of the people.
I understand that the Kashmiri issue probably is a lot more complicated than which currency to use. But holding people by force against their will does not seem like a good idea to me. Look at the new states in Europe - Slovenia, Slovakia Tjeckia .....What is the problem? They are all members of EU now. Other new states -Croatia, Serbia etc are hoping to become members.

 

[Yusuf]

If that was the case yeubaili, we would have had atleast 2000 countries in the world and not 200 odd. It doesn't work that way and even in the name of democracy sovereignty is not surrendered.

 

[Flint]

The issue IS far more complicated than you think, and it affects not just Kashmiris, but the whole subcontinent.

Maybe Europeans prefer to be divided into tiny countries. I say best of luck. We Indians have got better ideas than that for our future.

But how can you know that the Kashmiris wish to belong to India without having a plebiscit? And a plebiscit does not have to be legally binding.

BTW Swedish plebiscits are not legally binding. But e.g. when the majority of Swedes said no to the Euro, our government and all political parties accepted the decision of the people.
I understand that the Kashmiri issue probably is a lot more complicated than which currency to use. But holding people by force against their will does not seem like a good idea to me. Look at the new states in Europe - Slovenia, Slovakia Tjeckia .....What is the problem? They are all members of EU now. Other new states -Croatia, Serbia etc are hoping to become members.

 

[INDIANBULL]

But how can you know that the Kashmiris wish to belong to India without having a plebiscit? And a plebiscit does not have to be legally binding.

BTW Swedish plebiscits are not legally binding. But e.g. when the majority of Swedes said no to the Euro, our government and all political parties accepted the decision of the people.
I understand that the Kashmiri issue probably is a lot more complicated than which currency to use. But holding people by force against their will does not seem like a good idea to me. Look at the new states in Europe - Slovenia, Slovakia Tjeckia .....What is the problem? They are all members of EU now. Other new states -Croatia, Serbia etc are hoping to become members.

We are not holding kashmiris forcefully, they are free to move their @$$ to the pakistani side of boundry but yeah we have every right to hold our land firmly and Kashmir is a part of India not from 1947 but from the very begining of start of our civilistaion atleast 5000 years back and its the muslims who invaded our territory and still forcefully occupy it even after the british left and divided our beloved motherland. Now buddy go and better worry about your part of world.

 

[MMuthu]

But how can you know that the Kashmiris wish to belong to India without having a plebiscit? And a plebiscit does not have to be legally binding.

BTW Swedish plebiscits are not legally binding. But e.g. when the majority of Swedes said no to the Euro, our government and all political parties accepted the decision of the people.
I understand that the Kashmiri issue probably is a lot more complicated than which currency to use. But holding people by force against their will does not seem like a good idea to me. Look at the new states in Europe - Slovenia, Slovakia Tjeckia .....What is the problem? They are all members of EU now. Other new states -Croatia, Serbia etc are hoping to become members.

You don't seem to understand......

Why should we have plebiscit in Kashmir? During the past elections 62% of Kashmiri people turned out to cast their votes.

Remember this percentage is more than many other states in India.

Sepratist have called for boycotted of the elections, some of the seperatist have contested in elections. And Sanjit Lone, a seperatist who had lost the elections.

If we are holding them, they will not vote in Indian elections..... Pakistan is fuelling a smoke with some terorist attack, but we are not goint to give.

 

[INDIANBULL]

Buddy, He may be a Pakistani under swedish flag or some Pakistani lover or a neutral person want to learn about India... Why are you telling him like this... We are a democracy, We will give him his right of speech.

Yea he definitly seems to be a pakistani guy, lol but this is how evrybody can misuse the right of freedom and sppech in a democracy.

 

[yuebaili]

Now buddy go and better worry about your part of world.

Now that was not very polite!

Every time I log in to this forum it says "Welcome, yuebaili". Is it hycocrisy?

 

[hit&run]

its a wastage of time to preach someone the lesson of Indian democracy.
Unity in diversity is in our DNA. To know the real meaning of unity one has to live in india and feel the pain together when someone invades into your land, challenge your way of living and kill your love ones. The wounds caused by such violence heal fast when you have people even you don't know standing by you united to help and fight for you.

Most of the kids from subcontinent living abroad think democracy is when papa cant stop you for night-out. I have my personal experiences with many Idiots in Sydney thinking same as i wrote.