Joint production to be norm in new Indo-Russian defence projects

Discussion in 'Defence & Strategic Issues' started by AVERAGE INDIAN, Jan 21, 2014.

  1. AVERAGE INDIAN

    AVERAGE INDIAN EXORCIST Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2012
    Messages:
    2,762
    Likes Received:
    2,718
    Location:
    Detroit MI
    A major highlight of Indo-Russian relations in 2014 is expected to be the fifth generation fighter aircraft, whose first prototype delivery has already been delayed by about two years and is now expected later this year.

    The current focus in Indo-Russian bilateral relations is on consolidation and sticking to conventional diplomacy. This unwritten, unsaid policy is in place in all fields of Indo-Russian ties, particularly in the defence arena. Movers and shakers of India’s Russia policy believe that Indo-Russian relationship is too crucial to be allowed to go adrift, but the need of the hour is to deliver on current projects rather than keep on signing new defence deals.

    Moreover, the Indian political system has already hit the pause button with general elections scheduled to be completed before May this year. The new government would take at least four to six weeks to settle down, meaning that nothing spectacular should be expected in Indo-Russian ties in the first half of this year.

    A key Indian official responsible for navigating Indo-Russian relations said things are panning out well. An example of this was the BrahMos supervisory council that met in Moscow last week.

    The official did not divulge details of what transpired at the meeting and refused to say whether the issue of export of BrahMos missiles to third countries was taken up. The official, however, said that all major points of differences between the two sides on the project were removed at last week’s meeting.

    The official disclosed that many new defence deals would come up between India and Russia later this year but declined to give specific details. It is understood that outright purchases by India from Russia would be few and far between. Instead, the flavor of the season is to go for joint production.

    A major highlight of Indo-Russian relations in 2014 is expected to be the fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA), whose first prototype delivery has already been delayed by about two years and is now expected later this year.

    FGFA to be a major test case


    India is keeping a very close watch on the progress of the FGFA project which has a potential of becoming the biggest and most expensive Indo-Russian defence project costing India $30 billion. However, New Delhi will loosen its purse strings only if its concerns about value for money, cost-overruns, delays and 40 to 45 improvements in the fighter aircraft’s design demanded are met by the Russians.

    The next big thing on the FGFA project is signing the R&D phase of the project which is likely to cost $11 billion.

    Much depends on how soon the first prototype is delivered to India and how it performs during trials in the Indian skies. In August 2012 the then chief of Indian Air Force (IAF) Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne had gone on record as commenting thus: “The first prototype of the FGFA is scheduled to arrive in India by 2014 after which it will undergo extensive trials at the Ojhar air base (Maharashtra)...we are hopeful that the aircraft would be ready for induction by 2022.”

    India has already conveyed its unease to the Russians over the fact that it is getting only 15 percent of the research and development work share despite paying half the development cost. The Russians have promised to do the needful.

    The second and third prototypes are to arrive in India in 2017 and 2019 respectively and the IAF has planned to induct the fighter by 2022, if all goes well.

    The Indians are increasingly laying focus on self-reliance and not taking recourse to outright purchase of defence equipment from foreign sources unless it is absolutely critical to national security and such technology is not available in India. This policy is unlikely to be changed by the new government whichever party comes to power.

    The writer is a New Delhi-based journalist who tweets @Kishkindha

    Joint production to be norm in new Indo-Russian defence projects | Russia & India Report
     
  2.  
  3. SajeevJino

    SajeevJino Long walk Elite Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2012
    Messages:
    5,657
    Likes Received:
    3,032
    Location:
    Inside a Cage
    .

    one more experience we are Ready to face like The Vikky deal
     
  4. warriorextreme

    warriorextreme Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2010
    Messages:
    1,369
    Likes Received:
    536
    Location:
    Mumbai
    where our negotiators scratching balls during this deal?
     
  5. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

    Joined:
    May 26, 2010
    Messages:
    27,616
    Likes Received:
    28,453
    Location:
    BHARAT, INDIA, HINDUSTHAN
    deals with Russians >>

    1. PJ-10 ..
    2. T-90 ..
    3. Karsnop guided shells ..
    4. Recent FGFA fasco ..

    And many more to come ..
     
  6. sayareakd

    sayareakd Moderator Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2009
    Messages:
    15,632
    Likes Received:
    11,706
    problem is that their R&D is almost one generation ahead of us.

    Plus we are almost 1.5 generation behind them in engine department.
     
    Known_Unknown and pmaitra like this.
  7. vram

    vram Regular Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2011
    Messages:
    358
    Likes Received:
    451
    Location:
    Chennai
    Saar with all due respect what engine dept are you talking about here. Our jet engine is dead on arrival. For me the kaveri project was/is the biggest disappointment of the LCA undertaking. Our R & D is basically on the composites side and also some avionics which we have developed with israeli support. . Other than that I struggle to see what we can bring to the table here in a give and take with the russians. The astra is still in the making and final user approval phase.
    I am not sure about our AESA efforts for LCA mk2 ?? but pretty sure we are behind the Russians on that as well.
    while the russian have already got the R-77 and are working on the K-77M latest generation air to air missiles with AESA radar also in the works.
    No country how ever friendly is going to gift us technology just like that. with the current limitations Guess 15% work share is the max that we could get.
     
  8. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2009
    Messages:
    31,663
    Likes Received:
    17,163
    Location:
    EST, USA
    Agreed. End justifies it, and anything short of it doesn't. Either we have it very close to its intended design parameters, or we don't.

    We need to at least two, autonomous, and exclusive turbine research organizations, and two autonomous, and exclusive fixed and rotary wing aircraft research organizations.

    NAL needs to be seriously rapped in the knuckles.
     
  9. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2009
    Messages:
    20,553
    Likes Received:
    6,565
    I am still waiting for tot on brahmos engine and full tot on Sukhois not.Assembled kits.
     
    sesha_maruthi27 and sayareakd like this.
  10. sayareakd

    sayareakd Moderator Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2009
    Messages:
    15,632
    Likes Received:
    11,706
    LF we are making MKIs from Raw Material.
     
  11. Known_Unknown

    Known_Unknown Devil's Advocate Stars and Ambassadors

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2009
    Messages:
    2,632
    Likes Received:
    1,664
    Location:
    Earth
    Or more appropriately,

    :lol: Sorry, with all the gang-rape headlines gong around, couldn't resist. :pound:
     
    sesha_maruthi27 and pmaitra like this.
  12. bhramos

    bhramos Elite Member Elite Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2009
    Messages:
    13,208
    Likes Received:
    6,641
    Location:
    Telangana/India/Bharat
    not sure, but my feeling is we [Indians] get mind-blocked when we hear some words like Free Discount or some thing, like in Vicky deal, Vicky Carrier was given free + Discount on Building a Nuke sub for Ten lease and refits and new MiG-29K aircrafts will be given in Discount of just $1Bn, then our negotiators will have noting to say, they come back to Indian Govt and say Free + Discount is all best we can bag here...
     
  13. bhramos

    bhramos Elite Member Elite Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2009
    Messages:
    13,208
    Likes Received:
    6,641
    Location:
    Telangana/India/Bharat
    FGFA + related deals will come next 20 Years+ ... starting from Radar to Radar absorbent material, from engine to engine making material...will cost $20 Bln bill...
     
  14. vram

    vram Regular Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2011
    Messages:
    358
    Likes Received:
    451
    Location:
    Chennai
    Ya true. I remember seeing a news article pretty recently that states that the first su-30 mki with complete raw materials from India has been delivered to IAF. But that still includes only engines that are assembled. Rest all are built here. My major focus is on the engine.engine and engine.... I really believe out focus should have been on the design philosophy of "Build the aircraft around the engine" . But that is all water under the bridge...Its still not too late..forget the kaveri iterations. you cannot get a good design from a flawed product.
    Use the experience gained from this Kaveri and start with a Green Sheet design for a NEW ENGINE. pour resources from management teams to technical expertise into the project barring no budgetary constraints. Hire experts international consultant whatever is needed. But we need a abdul Kalam, Satish Dhawan or UU Rao kind of guy at the head
    Then later design and build the AMCA around this engine. I seriously feel that a 10 year development cycle for the entire hog is feasible if the above is implemented..
    After that we can flip the russian the birdie :):)
     
  15. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

    Joined:
    May 26, 2010
    Messages:
    27,616
    Likes Received:
    28,453
    Location:
    BHARAT, INDIA, HINDUSTHAN
    Unfortunately IAF does not agree with this view ..

     
  16. bhramos

    bhramos Elite Member Elite Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2009
    Messages:
    13,208
    Likes Received:
    6,641
    Location:
    Telangana/India/Bharat
    well bhai, leave IAF, do you agree my view, will Russia give all the materials data including how to make AESA of FGFA and other sensitive tech in next 20 years to India, ?
    but i case of Indian T-72 License production, Indian Avadi production T-72 is worst quality then Russian Made T-72, same with Jaguar or HAL built planes quality is less in Indian produced products.. when asked to a driver who personally drove Indian made T-90 and Arjun MKI, he said Arjun was best to drive, i cant give assurance on Quality..
     
  17. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

    Joined:
    May 26, 2010
    Messages:
    27,616
    Likes Received:
    28,453
    Location:
    BHARAT, INDIA, HINDUSTHAN
    Tot is more or less ' screw driver tech ' Russian wont be giving her best, They never did even in small arms ( AK-103 ) case ..

    Been in T-72, The one i was in, built in Soviet Union and not today`s Russia, Russian quality specially export in bulk is cheap as Chinese ..

    ===========

    Do i need to go on ? ..

     
    bhramos and sesha_maruthi27 like this.
  18. bhramos

    bhramos Elite Member Elite Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2009
    Messages:
    13,208
    Likes Received:
    6,641
    Location:
    Telangana/India/Bharat
    do you mean both are Different, is not Russia that effective in Quality!

    like MiG-35 or Su-35 buying is not quality effective as in USSR!
     
  19. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

    Joined:
    May 26, 2010
    Messages:
    27,616
    Likes Received:
    28,453
    Location:
    BHARAT, INDIA, HINDUSTHAN
    Different indeed, I am never been in MIG-35 or SU-35 but surely seen there Missiles failing to archive lock on, At air-defense units, Where as same Indian are preforming way better than their Russian counterparts ..

    Difference indeed ..

     
  20. Kyubi

    Kyubi Regular Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2013
    Messages:
    331
    Likes Received:
    247
    Location:
    Bangalore
    Is their any official documentation proving your allegations on T-72 tanks made in india
     
  21. bhramos

    bhramos Elite Member Elite Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2009
    Messages:
    13,208
    Likes Received:
    6,641
    Location:
    Telangana/India/Bharat
    my personal interaction with Avadi workers, some of my relatives work in different OFB's in South India...
     

Share This Page