J20 Stealth Fighter

[J20!]

LRIP birds in PLAAF service:

 

[Adioz]

5th generation fighter is an American designation.

What the US military term a 4th generation fighter aircraft, Chinese nomenclature would term a 3rd generation aircraft. What in the US is a 5th generation fighter aircraft - i.e. F35 F22, SU57, J20 - the Chinese military terms 4th generation.

Such nomenclature is ill-advised. There is a reason why the world sets up global standards like the Système Internationale. If all of us do our own thing, the world is going to become a much more difficult place to live in. I mean just imagine: if China calls a plane "ship", India calls a plane "car", Russia calls a plane "tank", US calls a plane "airplane" and UK calls a plane "UFO"; we are going to be in a pickle everytime we try to communicate.

I don't get why any military would do something so stupid.

 

[rockdog]

just like why there are 5.8mm, 5.45mm, 7.62mm, 7.9mm guns...

 

[no smoking]

I don't get why any military would do something so stupid.

Well, because unlike fanboys who like the fancy name and number, military and military industries have their clear standard for generalization:
First generation: J-6
Second generation: J-7/8
Third generation: J-10
Forth generation: J-20

 

[Adioz]

just like why there are 5.8mm, 5.45mm, 7.62mm, 7.9mm guns...

Exactly. And that is how it should be. And that is how it is. But if some country named China suddenly stops following this convention and starts calling its bullets 0.3" and 0.311" instead of the usual 7.62mm and 7.9mm, you can't blame the rest of the countries if they find that a little stupid.

Well, because unlike fanboys who like the fancy name and number, military and military industries have their clear standard for generalization:
First generation: J-6
Second generation: J-7/8
Third generation: J-10
Forth generation: J-20

Ok, I rest my case. You say that even if militaries all around the world call a particular kind of fighters "5th generation fighters", the PLA can call these same fighters "4th generation" according to its own naming convention that it came up with. I forgot that the Chinese usually do stuff that they think is perfectly normal even when the rest of the world thinks its obviously not normal.

Stuff like claiming international waters as your won. Stuff like walking into other people's lands (illegally), making your own roads there (illegally), pitching your own tents there (illegally) and calling this "conquest". From an international standpoint, something like that is neither acceptable, nor is it called "conquest". But the Chinese do not have to stick to "fanboyish" naming conventions and can obviously do whatever the f*** they want to do.

I'll stop now. Your logic is making my brain hurt.

Edit: On a lighter note, I just came across an article in my newspaper headlined "China refuses to accept Nepal's measurement of Mount Everest"
It says China plans to stick to its own calculations.

 

[mhk99]

It is reported recently that J20 are flying with WS10 IPE engines as WS15 were still under development. One engine exploded due to turbine failure. Single crystal production needs further work. But WS10 IPE still is stop gap training purposes as with WS10 under super cruise it is not as stealthy as needed. When WS15 is fully developed then J20 will be formidable.

 

[J20!]

Exactly. And that is how it should be. And that is how it is. But if some country named China suddenly stops following this convention and starts calling its bullets 0.3" and 0.311" instead of the usual 7.62mm and 7.9mm, you can't blame the rest of the countries if they find that a little stupid.



Ok, I rest my case. You say that even if militaries all around the world call a particular kind of fighters "5th generation fighters", the PLA can call these same fighters "4th generation" according to its own naming convention that it came up with. I forgot that the Chinese usually do stuff that they think is perfectly normal even when the rest of the world thinks its obviously not normal.

Such nomenclature is ill-advised. There is a reason why the world sets up global standards like the Système Internationale. If all of us do our own thing, the world is going to become a much more difficult place to live in. I mean just imagine: if China calls a plane "ship", India calls a plane "car", Russia calls a plane "tank", US calls a plane "airplane" and UK calls a plane "UFO"; we are going to be in a pickle everytime we try to communicate.

I don't get why any military would do something so stupid.

If by "world" you mean Lockheed Matin, then yes. "Fifth generation Fighter" is a term coined in large part by Lockheed Martin in the 1990's during the F22's development.

I don't see why the Chinese Military should suddenly change their existing terminology and adopt Lockheed Martin's marketing ploys? I think that's were we differ.

 

[shiphone]

If by "world" you mean Lockheed Matin, then yes. "Fifth generation Fighter" is a term coined in large part by Lockheed Martin in the 1990's during the F22's development.

I'm afraid that ATF-YF-22/23 WAS a '4th Generation Fighter'project comptition in 1990s and the western Changed the classification less two decades ago to bring it into correspondence with Russian classification system...

the so called “world”actually is created by the Russian.....

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/fighter-aircraft-gen-1.htm

LOL...so ,young Indians, do more reading about the histroy and open your eyes/minds to this world ...less meaningless fuss.

 

[jon jon jon]

Such nomenclature is ill-advised. There is a reason why the world sets up global standards like the Système Internationale. If all of us do our own thing, the world is going to become a much more difficult place to live in. I mean just imagine: if China calls a plane "ship", India calls a plane "car", Russia calls a plane "tank", US calls a plane "airplane" and UK calls a plane "UFO"; we are going to be in a pickle everytime we try to communicate.

I don't get why any military would do something so stupid.

Come on... it is just a term or standard used in China. Nothing wrong with it. If that is stupid, then god is also stupid for creating different languages, cultures and races of human. If English is the world's communicative language, then why learning Hindi, Mandarin or any other languages. If metric units is the universal standard why USA and UK still insist on the imperial units? Humans are diversified and so is everything else. Even you, your brother and your father are different in each others' appearance, mentality and sense of humour. Lets just get back on track.

 

[J20!]

LRIP birds in PLAAF service:

Missed one of the Dingxin AFB ops pics. The best of the lot I think;

 

[no smoking]

Ok, I rest my case. You say that even if militaries all around the world call a particular kind of fighters "5th generation fighters", the PLA can call these same fighters "4th generation" according to its own naming convention that it came up with. I forgot that the Chinese usually do stuff that they think is perfectly normal even when the rest of the world thinks its obviously not normal.

That is why I love these fanboys: to them, these names are just names, why bother to set up your own standard? To those who are actually working on the ground, name is not a simply name, it represents a group of product, weapon, etc. Accordingly, there are groups of people, skill set, maintenance tools to support them.


The reason that Russians and Americans use 5 generations to identify their fighter jet is that they have 5 generations of jet ever served in their air forces since 1950:


1st generation: Mig15, F86

2nd generation: Mig-21, F104

3rd generation: Mig-23, F-4, Mirage III

4th generation: Su-27, F15/16, Mirage 2000

5th generation: T-50, F22/35, J20

Every generation fighter has serve in their forces, they have factories, maintenance team, stock for each of these generation weapon. Unlike Russia, US or other major air forces, there was no third generation fighter had ever served in China, Then why China should follow their standard which is meaningless to Chinese system.

Stuff like claiming international waters as your won. Stuff like walking into other people's lands (illegally), making your own roads there (illegally), pitching your own tents there (illegally) and calling this "conquest". From an international standpoint, something like that is neither acceptable, nor is it called "conquest". But the Chinese do not have to stick to "fanboyish" naming conventions and can obviously do whatever the f*** they want to do.


I'll stop now. Your logic is making my brain hurt.

Of course your brain is hurting since you are trying to use a pile of BS to cover up your ignorance.

 

[Armand2REP]

Or maybe Chinese nomenclature is actually correct and they are freely admitting that J-20 is only 4th generation. Lets be honest, aside from the internal weapons bay it doesn't have any 5th generation attributes. Copying an F-22 nose and using the same paint job doesn't make it 5th generation.

 

[badguy2000]

Or maybe Chinese nomenclature is actually correct and they are freely admitting that J-20 is only 4th generation. Lets be honest, aside from the internal weapons bay it doesn't have any 5th generation attributes. Copying an F-22 nose and using the same paint job doesn't make it 5th generation.

haha,yes.
j10 and su30,su350are 3G birds.

french 3g is,sitting ducks against chinese 3g like j11/j10/s30/su35.

again,french 4g refale is sitting duck against chinese 4g like j20.

haha

 

[Armand2REP]

haha,yes.
j10... are 3G.

Based on the crash rate of the flying coffin J-10 you are correct, it is 3rd generation.

 

[asianobserve]

Why am I not surprised with China. But having their own naming system for jet fighter generations they want to imply that they developed their jet fighters totally apart and independent from the rest of the World.

Chinese jets are exclusively Soviet and Russian copies or derivatives that coincide with accepted generational stages. What these Chinese don't consider is that the first operational Soviet (and American) jets came out at the same time due to the fact that their jets were a development of Rolls Royce engines and Luftwaffe swept wing tech. So the adoption of the standard generational stages is inevitable.

But then again, China has a penchant of creating their own fantasies and forcing the World to believe these fantasies.

 

[badguy2000]

Why am I not surprised with China. But having their own naming system for jet fighter generations they want to imply that they developed their jet fighters totally apart and independent from the rest of the World.

Chinese jets are exclusively Soviet and Russian copies or derivatives that coincide with accepted generational stages. What these Chinese don't consider is that the first operational Soviet (and American) jets came out at the same time due to the fact that their jets were a development of Rolls Royce engines and Luftwaffe swept wing tech. So the adoption of the standard generational stages is inevitable.

But then again, China has a penchant of creating their own fantasies and forcing the World to believe these fantasies.

well, it is so simply because China skipped the deployment of the 3G birds(F4/mig23),when CHina fell into the chaoes of Culture Revelution(1966-1976).

J8II,China's counterpart to F4/mig23,is a half-failure like LCA.Chinese started devleoping J8 in later 1960s,but J8 did not get mature until mid-1990s.But at that time,J8 was already out of date,because 4G birds like F15/su27/f16/M2000 were already all over the world.
Thus,the deployment of J8II is quite limited.China almost skipped the deployment of 3G bird like F4/Mig23/J8II.

So, Russia/USA have deployed 5G birds while China has deployed only 4G birds.


that is all.

 

[lcafanboy]

Why China’s first stealth fighter was rushed into service with inferior engines

Problems encountered in development of new WS-15 engine mean PLA Air Force’s first J-20s are not so stealthy at supersonic speeds

6 Feb 2018
China rushed its first advanced stealth fighter jet into service ahead of schedule last year, using stopgap engines, in the face of rising security challenges in the region, the South China Morning Post has learned.

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But that means its capabilities will be severely limited, affecting its manoeuvrability and fuel efficiency as well as its stealthiness at supersonic speeds.

Without saying how many were in operation, the People’s Liberation Army Air Force confirmed on Friday that the J-20, the country’s fifth-generation fighter, had entered combat service, meaning it was combat-ready.

However, the aircraft was equipped with inferior engines designed for earlier warplanes when it first joined the air force in March last year because “critical problems” with its tailor-made WS-15 engine, exposed by an accident in 2015, had not been fixed, two independent military sources told the Post.

“The WS-15 engine designed for the J-20 exploded during a ground running test in 2015,” one source said, adding that no one was injured in the accident.

“The explosion indicated the WS-15 is not reliable, and so far there is no fundamental solution to overcome such a problem … that’s why the J-20 is using WS-10B engines now.”

The WS-10B is a modified version of the WS-10 Taihang engine, which was designed for the country’s fourth-generation J-10 and J-11 fighters.

The explosion was confirmed by another source close to the military, who said the reasons it happened were complicated, with one being the quality control of its single-crystal turbine blades, the key component for such a powerful turbofan engine.

The new-generation, single-crystal turbine blades designed for the WS-15 were supposed to be able to cope with the increased mechanical loads caused by significantly higher rotational speeds and extremely high temperatures.

Former Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) chairman Lin Zuoming told state media last year that China’s third-generation single-crystal turbine blades could withstand temperatures of up to 3,632 degrees Fahrenheit (2,000 degrees Celsius) in WS-10 engines, extending the engine’s lifespan from 800 hours to 1,500 hours when compared with those using the previous generation of turbine blade.

Japan deploys first F-35A stealth fighter, with mission to keep tabs on North Korea

However, the thrust-to-weight ratio of the original WS-10 engine was only 7.5, while that of the WS-10B tops out at about nine. The thrust-to-weight ratio of the all-direction, vector turbofan WS-15 Emei engine is more than 10 – one of the basic requirements for giving the J-20 “supercruise” ability.

Supercruise allows stealth fighters like the US’ F-22 Raptor to fly at supersonic speeds without using afterburners, making them harder to detect. The F-22 is powered by the world’s most advanced jet engine, the Pratt & Whitney F119.

But achieving supercruise would require the single-crystal turbine blades of the WS-15 engine to cope with temperatures even more extreme than those handled by the WS-10.

“Chinese technicians are able to produce cutting-edge-quality single-crystal turbine blades when concentrating on a specific single item,” the second military source said. “But they’ve still failed to turn the advanced technology into a standard product for mass production. It’s a bottleneck problem that needs more time to overcome after countless experiments and tests, based on Western experiences.”

“Using the WS-10B engines is just a temporary, expedient stage of the J-20’s engine development … in the future, the aircraft may use another new engine, the improved performance engine (IPE) version of the WS-10, the WS-10 IPE, until the development of the WS-15 is successful,” the first source said.

“It’s so embarrassing to change engines for such an important aircraft project several times … just because of the unreliability of the current WS-15 engines. It is the long-standing core problem among home-grown aircraft.”

Hackers use ‘China Chopper’ tool to steal Australia F-35 stealth fighter data from defence firm

It is at least the third time the J-20 has changed engines. The aircraft’s maiden flight was powered by two Russian AL-31 engines, which are less capable than China’s WS-10B.

Russia has refused to export its most advanced engines to China because they are the core technology of its aviation industry. That prompted China to develop an indigenous alternative, the WS-15, as part of its drive towards producing one of the world’s most advanced combat aircraft.

Beijing has stepped up the development of sophisticated jet engines since the turn of the century, with at least 150 billion yuan (US$23.7 billion) invested between 2010 and 2015, military insiders told the Post in 2016.

State-owned Aero Engine, a company formed in August 2016 through the merger of 24 AVIC subsidiaries with about 10,000 employees, has led China’s development and production of aircraft engines and gas turbines in recent years. One of the former AVIC subsidiaries, Shenyang Aeroengine Research Institute, developed the WS-10 and WS-15.

China Central Television boasted last year that the performance of the WS-15 had matched that of the F119, with a documentary aired in May claiming the WS-15 engines would be widely used in the J-20 by 2020.

That would make China the third country to have a fifth-generation fighter – after the US and Russia. Justin Bronk, a research fellow specialising in combat air power at the Royal United Services Institute, told Business Insider the design of the J-20 gave it “longer range, more internal fuel capacity, and larger internal weapons capability” than its US counterparts, the F-22 and F-35, and that meant it presented a real threat to US forces in the Pacific.

However, military analysts said it was too early for such prognostications because the underdeveloped WS-15 engine was not yet as sophisticated as the F119, which had a lifespan of more than 4,000 hours.

Chinese military buffs build replica J-20 stealth fighter

The prototype of Russia’s first fifth-generation fighter jet, the Su-57, took to the air for the first time in January 2010 but its maiden flight powered by the new Izdelie 30 engine, which was specially designed for it, only took place last month. The new engine will enable the Su-57 to achieve supercruise speed and fly consistently at 1,242mph (2,000km/h), but it still faces many tests, with the Russia Beyond website saying it would not be mounted on the Su-57 before 2019 or 2020.

China’s WS-15 project started in the 1990s, with the first prototype delivered in 2004 and the first successful ground-running test staged in 2015, Antony Wong Dong, a Macau-based military observer, said.

“China took 11 years to test the WS-15 after its prototype was created,” Wong said. “It’s very normal to take three to eight years for further development.

“And it’s still a significant achievement for China to develop the WS-10B as a stopgap for the J-20. China’s advanced aircraft engine technology foundation is very weak because its research and development started several decades later than its Western counterparts.”

America’s Pratt & Whitney and General Electric spent more than 12 years developing prototypes of the F119 engine in the 1980s, followed by another 14 years of testing after the engine’s maiden flight, fitted to an F-22, in September 1997.

The US also began developing the F-35, a single-seat, single-engine, all-weather stealth multirole fighter in the 1990s, with the first squadron – using Pratt & Whitney F135 engines, a derivative of the F119, joining its air force in 2016.

The US has started deploying F-35s at its military bases in the Asia-Pacific region, with 12 arriving at the Kadena Air Base in Japan in November. South Korea has said it plans to take delivery of 40 F-35s this year.

From stealth fighters to ballistic missiles, China shows the world its weapons of war

Earlier reports said Japan’s Maritime Self-Defence Force was also considering buying the F-35B “jump jet” version for its two new 25,000 tonne, flat-topped Izumo-class helicopter carriers. That pushed Beijing to put the J-20 into service as early as possible, military sources said.

Andrei Chang, editor-in-chief of Canadian-based Kanwa Asian Defence, said the J-20 might need at least eight years to improve its engine performance, but it was still the PLA Air Force’s most capable combat aircraft when it came to countering America’s F-22.

“The J-20 is more advanced than China’s fourth-generation fighters because of its stealthiness,” he wrote in the latest edition of the magazine, adding that it could also carry a greater quantity of more advanced air-to-air missiles.

Chang said he did not expect China to put the J-20 into mass production until the WS-15 project was wrapped up, but that training of J-20 pilots had been going on for a while. He said the PLA Air Force had deployed J-20s to the Dingxin Test and Training Base in Gansu province, where they and other warplanes had been used to study counter measures against the F-22 and F-35.

Hong Kong-based military commentator Liang Guoliang said there was a “very urgent” need for China to develop a carrier-based stealth fighter based on the J-20 because of the regional security environment was becoming more challenging.

America’s F-35 fighter jet vs China’s J-20: which is better, cheaper, stealthier?

“The US F-35B is much more powerful than China’s current carrier-based fighter, the J-15,” Liang said. “In case there is a war, the fighting capability of a Japanese Izumo helicopter carrier could come up to that of a Chinese aircraft carrier if each ship is equipped with five to six F-35Bs, with each one the equal of 10 J-15s.”

But, he cautioned, it would take at least a decade to turn a land-based fighter jet like the J-20 into a carrier-based aircraft because of the extensive modifications required, adding that the US had been developing carrier-based aircraft since the 1930s, while China had just started doing so this century.

China’s carrier-based J-15 is based on the Russian Su-33, a variant of the fourth-generation Su-27 fighter.

“China should hurry up; the central leadership should make a decision as soon as possible,” Liang said.
http://www.scmp.com/news/china/dipl...inas-first-stealth-fighter-was-rushed-service

 

[J20!]

http://www.eastpendulum.com/les-rumeurs-sur-les-premiers-combats-du-j-20
Rumors about the first "fights" of the J-20

HENRI KENHMANN
2018-02-16

While the Chinese Air Force has officially announced the deployment of their all-new J-20 Stealth Fighter into operational combat units , many are wondering whether other Chinese Air Force aircraft have already opportunity to "test what the J-20 has in the belly".

And if, according to the public interviews of J-20 pilots and J-11B squadron pilots , the answer seems to be quite clear that the last jewel of the Chinese army did indeed "meet" the other front-line fighters during the various air exercises in 2017 - if not sooner already - it is however not surprising that no results have been communicated publicly given the still sensitive and confidential nature of this Chinese plane.

But these are not rumors that have been missing for a year in terms of the results of these meetings, only the exercise of sorting is perilous to know which of these rumors are reliable, and which are just pure fantasies of some amateurs .

After having crossed several versions and filtered only on sources that seem to have demonstrated their credibility for a few years, we can still draw the outline of the scenarios that would have been played and have the results obtained by the J-20 during these simulations of air combat, although, for the moment, all this must still be taken with the pich of salt pending institutional elements to confirm or deny.


Two J-20 of the Chinese Air Force stolen in formation

It is then thought that the J-20 would have at least participated in two types of combat scenarios. The first is to assess the ability of the aircraft to conduct aerial combat as a direct responder, in the face of singular adversaries or reinforced by multiplying means in the air and on the ground. intercept "or" sweep "to eliminate any kind of threat from the sky to pave the way for the squadrons that follow.

For that, several cases would have been unfolded, in which the J-20 always intervened in pairs. For example, there is the case of two J-20s in BVR against a number of J-10B and J-10C which are supported by an AWACS KJ-500, in which one of the two J-20s would have managed to descend AWACS by surprise thanks to its stealth and range of its new Air-Air missile, while the other was busy entertaining and chasing the escort apparatus. A J-20 was reportedly shot down in front of the J-10C with active-scan radar, which was able to locate and lock the stealth fighter a short distance within 18 km, while all J-10Bs and half of the J-10C would have been down at the end.

Other cases have of course been mentioned, such as the WVR fight between two J-20s and several J-10B / J-10C in numerical superiority, but caution calls not to consider these cases, at least for the moment.

In the second type of scenario, the J-20s as well as the J-16 fighter bombers would have been used as reinforcements to come to support the OPFOR planes, which go to the assault against a site guarded by "the red army ".

The latter would consist of a number of J-10 interceptors (unknown version), AWACS and electronic warfare aircraft, as well as ground-based radar units and S-300 type air defense systems. (PMU1 or PMU2).

Here, the J-20 would have rather played the role of remote sensors, in advanced position, to guide the Air-Air missiles launched by the third planes (J-16?) On the "red" interceptors and the other multipliers in flight. The scenario would be ended by a heavy loss of ground units and Red Army units, and especially the reaching of sensitive targets by the OPFOR aircraft, a scenario that would suggest that of a possible conflict between Mainland China and Taiwan, where the latter will be endorsed by the US military with the F-22 and F-35 for example.

It is therefore understandable that an entire Chinese air defense base and the air force protection would have been "wiped out" against Taiwan and US squadrons in this scenario, which would explain why the first operational J-20s were deployed first in Eastern China, while it is Su-35 who leave to base themselves in the south.


J-16 and J-20, the new "winning couple" of the Chinese Air Force?


Two J-20s photographed by a J-16 pilot (Image: CCTV)

If in these rumors the versions are more or less different, all converge all the same to a point to say that the introduction of J-20 within the Chinese air forces generates a "shock" and especially a "disillusion", which has allowed the commanders of the air and anti-aircraft ground units to become aware of the "harsh reality" of the last generation of fighter jets (4th in China, 5th in the US or Russia) and furtive, and understand that the tactics developed in recent years to counter such devices are for the most "ineffective" and "inoperative".

Of course, we should expect other official sources to verify these claims, but one thing is certain, the Chinese Air Force is still in its infancy to refine the employment doctrines of a stealthy aircraft such as the J-20, and also to develop adequate means to counteract this kind of threat on a concrete basis.

To be continued.

Henri K.

 

[J20!]

The aerodynamics of the J20 in one pic:

Vortices generated from the canard and extending all the way past the wing's leading edge. + its just an awesome pic. Poster material.

 

[rone]

Are Chinese air force following USAF paint scheme? Paint job look like simpler to f22