Is HAL inefficient? Should Govt. split it?

[Mad Indian]

nobody has quoted sukhoi costs or HAL costs

what they have quoted is costs to india / IAF = selling price of both sukhoi as well as HAL

Dont come into an argument without reading the links/arguments.


At present, a Sukhoi 30 MKI that would cost Rs 227 crores to manufacture in Russia, rolls out of HAL's Nashik plant for over Rs 440 crores. This considerable mark-up is due to the extra man hours that are required by HAL to manufacture an aircraft, the official explained.


In case you dint know, "Roll out cost" is the cost of manufacture and read the red part too. It seems it was specially mentioned for the HAL fanboys. Even they themselves dont deny that they are incompetent buffoons

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...rcraft-deal/articleshow/49235168.cms?from=mdr

 

[brational]

I think there is a huge deficiency in factoring components cost and cost of making the final product. Hal does not manufacture all the components of mki. Even engine companents manufacuring possibly outsourced. So when the final product assembly is done in hal it is going to cost more. It includes components manufacurers profit, tax and so on. Other foreign procurements like electronics avionics and sub systems can also be a reason for increased cost. So the final assembly cost gonna be high.
Hal and mod did not factored in these issues while finalising the contract with russia.. MOD and HAL both are party to increased cost.

 

[pmaitra]

Dont come into an argument without reading the links/arguments.


At present, a Sukhoi 30 MKI that would cost Rs 227 crores to manufacture in Russia, rolls out of HAL's Nashik plant for over Rs 440 crores. This considerable mark-up is due to the extra man hours that are required by HAL to manufacture an aircraft, the official explained.


In case you dint know, "Roll out cost" is the cost of manufacture and read the red part too. It seems it was specially mentioned for the HAL fanboys. Even they themselves dont deny that they are incompetent buffoons

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...rcraft-deal/articleshow/49235168.cms?from=mdr

Your data might as well be right, but much of that Rs. 440 crores is recycled back into the Indian economy, while all of the Rs. 227 crores will go into the Russian economy.

Don't lose out the big picture.

 

[Pulkit]

Dont come into an argument without reading the links/arguments.


At present, a Sukhoi 30 MKI that would cost Rs 227 crores to manufacture in Russia, rolls out of HAL's Nashik plant for over Rs 440 crores. This considerable mark-up is due to the extra man hours that are required by HAL to manufacture an aircraft, the official explained.


In case you dint know, "Roll out cost" is the cost of manufacture and read the red part too. It seems it was specially mentioned for the HAL fanboys. Even they themselves dont deny that they are incompetent buffoons

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/iaf-frets-over-russian-fighter-aircraft-deal/articleshow/49235168.cms?from=mdr

I agree that HAL taken a lot more man hours than Russia and also there are some Tax Variations.
But I fail to understand one thing... Correct me if I am wrong or mis interpreting:
Cost in Russia Inclusive all taxes and delivery to India:227
Cost in India including ALL: 440
that mean a difference of app 90% which cannot simply come from extra man hours.

Kindly share the split of the costing for better understanding or direct me to one.

What I think is 227 cr is the manufacturing price excluding taxes etc and 440 in India is including everything.

Also if you can direct me to the source of the pricing I will be really thankful.

Your data might as well be right, but much of that Rs. 440 crores is recycled back into the Indian economy, while all of the Rs. 227 crores will go into the Russian economy.

Don't lose out the big picture.

pmaitra even in the case of buying Russian made a large portion can enter Indian Economy as Russia will be bound to re invest a major portion in India.
so if that's the case then we are at loss in building it here.
Even today a few major components are imported from Russia (Read somewhere recently).

It is still not 100% manufactured in India...
Is it?

 

[tejas warrior]

Simply Man Hour will not increase cost from 227 > 440 Cr. Specially when Indian worked are involved. Figures looks false.

 

[pmaitra]

I agree that HAL taken a lot more man hours than Russia and also there are some Tax Variations.
But I fail to understand one thing... Correct me if I am wrong or mis interpreting:
Cost in Russia Inclusive all taxes and delivery to India:227
Cost in India including ALL: 440
that mean a difference of app 90% which cannot simply come from extra man hours.

Kindly share the split of the costing for better understanding or direct me to one.

What I think is 227 cr is the manufacturing price excluding taxes etc and 440 in India is including everything.

Also if you can direct me to the source of the pricing I will be really thankful.



pmaitra even in the case of buying Russian made a large portion can enter Indian Economy as Russia will be bound to re invest a major portion in India.
so if that's the case then we are at loss in building it here.
Even today a few major components are imported from Russia (Read somewhere recently).

It is still not 100% manufactured in India...
Is it?

The Russian Sukhoi-30 is different from the Indian Sukhoi-30MKI. The Indian one has advanced avionics, Indian, French, and Israeli components.

We are not comparing identical airplanes.

 

[tejas warrior]

The Russian Sukhoi-30 is different from the Indian Sukhoi-30MKI. The Indian one has advanced avionics, Indian, French, and Israeli components.

We are not comparing identical airplanes.

Yes, that's why. gr8.

Thanks for clarification.

 

[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

Your data might as well be right, but much of that Rs. 440 crores is recycled back into the Indian economy, while all of the Rs. 227 crores will go into the Russian economy.

Don't lose out the big picture.

Are you saying that even if it costs 1000cr, we should not care because money gets pumped back into Indian economy.

Probably, that's why HAL babu's don't give a damn about efficiency.

 

[pmaitra]

Are you saying that even if it costs 1000cr, we should not care because money gets pumped back into Indian economy.

Probably, that's why HAL babu's don't give a damn about efficiency.

Probably, and probably not. I'd like to see some solid evidence. Do you have any CAG report at hand that prove's HAL's inefficiency? If you do, then please share. Otherwise, it is just that - probably.

No, I am not saying anything involving Rs. 1000 cr. I am saying what I am saying. Let me summarize once again.

• Rs. 440 cr vs Rs. 227 cr.
• Sukhoi-30MKI vs Sukhoi-30.

 

[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

Probably, and probably not. I'd like to see some solid evidence. Do you have any CAG report at hand that prove's HAL's inefficiency? If you do, then please share. Otherwise, it is just that - probably.

No, I am not saying anything involving Rs. 1000 cr. I am saying what I am saying. Let me summarize once again.

• Rs. 440 cr vs Rs. 227 cr.
• Sukhoi-30MKI vs Sukhoi-30.

CAG can only point out the problem if there is some corruption. CAG has no clue on efficiency or what some other efficient company could do to produce it cheap.

What I am saying is:
- There should be significant component difference to cause the above price difference. And it should be of the order such that it overcompensates for cheap labor and production costs in India, which would ideally make Su-30 cheaper than 227 crore to manufacture in India.

If you have any reference on how component costs can over-inflate HAL's production cost, please share.

 

[A chauhan]

I am saying what I am saying. Let me summarize once again.

• Rs. 440 cr vs Rs. 227 cr.
• Sukhoi-30MKI vs Sukhoi-30.

As far as I know the difference between MKI and Su-30 is in the avionics, can avionics alone cause almost 50% increase in the assembling/manufacturing cost?

 

[Mad Indian]

What I think is 227 cr is the manufacturing price excluding taxes etc and 440 in India is including everything.

Yeah keep giving you excuses for that pathetic pos called hal . that's how you improve that pos organisation- by giving excuses.

 

[Mad Indian]

Simply Man Hour will not increase cost from 227 > 440 Cr. Specially when Indian worked are involved. Figures looks false.

Yeah. Of course it is. It doesn't suit your narrative now does it?

Fanboys

 

[Mad Indian]

Your data might as well be right, but much of that Rs. 440 crores is recycled back into the Indian economy, while all of the Rs. 227 crores will go into the Russian economy.

Don't lose out the big picture.

spoken like a true leftist. Yeah believe that if that makes you feel better.

But reality is different . There is a reason all mainstream economists encourage free trade and not mercantilism

 

[Mad Indian]

Are you saying that even if it costs 1000cr, we should not care because money gets pumped back into Indian economy

Isn't that retarded as ****. Aren't we better off buying 227 crore Su30 from Rus and using the remaining 200 crore to buy some other aircraft economically speaking?

 

[Mad Indian]

I think there is a huge deficiency in factoring components cost and cost of making the final product. Hal does not manufacture all the components of mki. Even engine companents manufacuring possibly outsourced. So when the final product assembly is done in hal it is going to cost more. It includes components manufacurers profit, tax and so on. Other foreign procurements like electronics avionics and sub systems can also be a reason for increased cost. So the final assembly cost gonna be high.
Hal and mod did not factored in these issues while finalising the contract with russia.. MOD and HAL both are party to increased cost.

Yes give more excuses because the link punctures the narrative of the DFI echo chamber , that iaf is at fault for HAL's failures.


BTW, do you think sukhoi manufactures the nuts and bolts for the Su 30 it manufactures? Seriously, stop giving pathetic excuses for that pathetic organisation when they themselves admitted that they are inefficient as ****

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Ok... I dont know, but may be I am over imaginative, but can't it be done by elongating the nozzle an bit and running super cool liquid nitrogen through the wall of the evhaust?
Just an imagination though .

The metal will fracture. Their is a gradual curve for temperature change for every metal else it fractures instantly or over the period depending on material properties.

 

[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

Yes give more excuses because the link punctures the narrative of the DFI echo chamber , that iaf is at fault for HAL's failures.


BTW, do you think sukhoi manufactures the nuts and bolts for the Su 30 it manufactures? Seriously, stop giving pathetic excuses for that pathetic organisation when they themselves admitted that they are inefficient as ****

HAL seems to be just a glorified assembly unit which assembles everything at a much higher cost.

Although this is true that India does not have a good ecosystem of suppliers when compared to Russia. But then again, who is responsible for that? HAL obviously. They did not enter the business yesterday to complain about support system. Or at least they should tell that costs are going to fall in future.

And why should India pay higher cost for a similar aircraft which can be procured for much less. It is not as if HAL has reverse engineered everything to make an awesome Indian copy of everything. Indian dependence on Russia remains almost the same.

 

[Mad Indian]

HAL seems to be just a glorified assembly unit which assembles everything at a much higher cost.

Although this is true that India does not have a good ecosystem of suppliers when compared to Russia. But then again, who is responsible for that? HAL obviously. They did not enter the business yesterday to complain about support system. Or at least they should tell that costs are going to fall in future.

And why should India pay higher cost for a similar aircraft which can be procured for much less. It is not as if HAL has reverse engineered everything to make an awesome Indian copy of everything. Indian dependence on Russia remains almost the same.

I read that almost 85% of the Su30 are manufactured in India. It makes no economic sense and distanf kind of strategic sense

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

Dont come into an argument without reading the links/arguments.


At present, a Sukhoi 30 MKI that would cost Rs 227 crores to manufacture in Russia, rolls out of HAL's Nashik plant for over Rs 440 crores. This considerable mark-up is due to the extra man hours that are required by HAL to manufacture an aircraft, the official explained.


In case you dint know, "Roll out cost" is the cost of manufacture and read the red part too. It seems it was specially mentioned for the HAL fanboys. Even they themselves dont deny that they are incompetent buffoons

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...rcraft-deal/articleshow/49235168.cms?from=mdr

Manihar parrikar has said that Su30MKi costs rs 358 crore to IAF

which means it is available to IAF at Rs 358 crores

which means it is selling price of HAL & buying price of IAF

which includes all

mfg costs + taxes + licensce fees + profits of HAL