Is HAL inefficient? Should Govt. split it?

Discussion in 'Defence & Strategic Issues' started by ashdoc, Oct 6, 2015.

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Do you think HAL is efficient? If yes, what should be done?

  1. No- HAL is awesome

    10.3%
  2. No- HAL needs some tweaks but its ok

    37.9%
  3. Yes- HAL should be split-up and sold off to private firms

    34.5%
  4. Yes- HAL should be made more lean and divided into different govt. entities

    41.4%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. ashdoc

    ashdoc Senior Member Senior Member

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  3. Mad Indian

    Mad Indian Proud Bigot Veteran Member Senior Member

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    From the article- Hal takes 400crores to manufacture SU 30 which is manufactured in Russia for 230 crores, which shows how competent Hal thugs are. Hal was the reason MMRCA failed because HAL could not match the manufacturing cost offered by Rafael.

    But LCA fanboys have no problem blaming IAF in defence of that pos called Hal
     
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  4. PaliwalWarrior

    PaliwalWarrior Regular Member

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    ok so why is the deal for 36 still struck on costs when the 36 are mfg by dasault and to be brought by india in Flyaway condition from dasault ?

    now HAL is out of the picture so why is costs stillan issue ?
     
  5. Mad Indian

    Mad Indian Proud Bigot Veteran Member Senior Member

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    This is not defense of HAL. Rafale deal being signed or not does not change the fact that HAL takes more money to manufacture the same jet despite lower wages here in India. You can't troll your way out of this issue by deflecting it to other crap like you always do in the other forum. So don't post crap here.
     
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  6. Mad Indian

    Mad Indian Proud Bigot Veteran Member Senior Member

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    From what I read from knowledgeable members of another forum, the negotiations are for the offsets.
     
  7. PaliwalWarrior

    PaliwalWarrior Regular Member

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    ok lets use logic and facts

    russian offered india Su30

    India evolved that into Su30MKI so first understand what is different in them

    1st the russian aircraft comparable to Su30MKI is Su30SM

    do you know that

    1. SU30MKI means customised for india ?
    it means India chooses the a lot of third country (isreal / french) systems that are fitted into the Su30MKI

    now when russia makes Su30 it uses its own systems

    when india chooses Isreali / french systems the costing is definitly going to go up because those are extra

    2. when russia supplies SU30MKI kits to inida they already earn thier profit
    when India licensce builds them there is licensing costs i.e. russian OEM profits + HAL profits

    3. When Russia Builds them at thier plant the plant & R&D costs is amortised over a larger fleet (russian Su30 variants + Indian order) so those per unit overheads are lower
    But when india build them at HAL the plant amortisation overheads per unit are higher

    4. consider the effect of taxes - there is incidence of something around 25% of total costs as taxes to be paid (excise + VAT) for Su30MKI built in India

    now adjust all those figures then come back with the real difference that HAL inefficiency makes to the pricing
     
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  8. PaliwalWarrior

    PaliwalWarrior Regular Member

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    last year Manohar parriker said the costs of Su30MKI was 358 crores

    so whom should i beleive Def Min or this article ?
     
  9. Mad Indian

    Mad Indian Proud Bigot Veteran Member Senior Member

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    BS from top to bottom. The cost are for manufacturing and not tot or anything. Most of the components of mki is indigenously manufactured , to the tune of 85% last I checked. Vat is not included in the manufacturing costs.


    Finally, NO, customisation for the MKI does not lead to increase of 100% when the Mki is only a tad better than su30 sm and unless we are talking about a difference of two generations between su30 and MKI.
     
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  10. Sakal Gharelu Ustad

    Sakal Gharelu Ustad Detests Jholawalas Moderator

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    None of your points above make sense except may be 1. But then do you really expect that alone to inflate costs by 100%. I would have given some weight to pt 3, but HAL builds enough planes to have costs similar to Russia.
     
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  11. PaliwalWarrior

    PaliwalWarrior Regular Member

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    1.
    Def Min said the costs of Su30MKi are 358 crores

    2.
    western systems are costly over twice of those russian systems

    3.
    go check out the taxes to be paid to govt - it dosent matter to govt as for the govt themoney are going from one pocket to another but it matters for IAF & HAL as they are paying to govt

    4.
    when India licensce build Su30MKI - will russia give the liscence for free ?
    they will charge licenscing fees - which will not be applicable in case of flyaway condition purchase from russian OEM
     
  12. Sakal Gharelu Ustad

    Sakal Gharelu Ustad Detests Jholawalas Moderator

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    1. That is what we are discussing.

    2. Agreed. But what part of the actual cost do they constitute? I already gave you benefit of doubt here, but does it double the entire cost?

    3. Even for imported one there would be taxes, even import duties. But here we are talking about manufacturing cost and not delivery cost. I do not think it would make sense to compare Russian costs with HAL costs + taxes when people report cost. You can post link if you think that this is what is going on i.e. people report cost+tax for HAL while just cost for Sukhoi.

    4. Well, licensing cost is there in both cases. You think Sukhoi does not include that cost when it sells itself. I would expect licensing fee to be less than actual designing fee that Sukhoi actually charges its customers.
     
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  13. PaliwalWarrior

    PaliwalWarrior Regular Member

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    ok
    say Su30 costs 233 crores in Russia
    and Su30MKI costs 358 crores in india

    thats a difference of 125 crores that is 50% increase over 233 crores not 100% as you claim & say
     
  14. Sakal Gharelu Ustad

    Sakal Gharelu Ustad Detests Jholawalas Moderator

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    It was based on ToI news posted by @ashdoc which claimed it to be 440 crore compared to 227 in Russia.

    Anyway, the other points still stand.
     
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  15. PaliwalWarrior

    PaliwalWarrior Regular Member

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    the costs go up by 50% dont double up as i explained with figures in my last post
    also
    the avionics, sensors etc are the things which are major costs because that is what all it is about

    some french members claims that spectra on rafale costs 30% of the rafale price

    i know we are talking about Su30MKI but the example of Rafale was to show that increasingly the costing is in avionics & electronics not airframe
     
  16. PaliwalWarrior

    PaliwalWarrior Regular Member

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    i got to know about Su30MKI taxes and its figures from one member Vstol Jockey on another forum

    the forum is currently down or i would have copy pasted his exact post
     
  17. PaliwalWarrior

    PaliwalWarrior Regular Member

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    1.
    when IAF pays HAL rs 358 crores for 1 su30MKI it includes taxes + Russian OEM profits (licenscing costs) + HAL expenses & profits

    2.
    Most of the components built for Su30MKI in india does not mean India has that tech or IP of that tech
    eg.
    we build Su30MKi engines in india - but we pay royalty / Licensing fees / ToT fees to the russain OEM to make those engines and to learn those tech

    or
    if you think not then answer a simple question
    why do we need to import engines for tejas
    if we can build Su30MKI eninges on our own then why cant we build engines on our own for Tejas
    answer this simple question

    3.
    The costs increase in 50% no 100% as you claim

    4.
    Russian Su30SM was inspired from SU30MKI
    i.e. First India eveolved Su30MKI based on its success russia made Su30SM

    Su30MKI precceeds Su30SM not the other way round
     
  18. PaliwalWarrior

    PaliwalWarrior Regular Member

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    licenscing costs is not there in both cases as in case of direct OEM (flyaway sales) they will charge profit

    in case of ToT the OEM will charge profit (licenscing fees / tot charges ) and the local mfg will also charge his profit
     
  19. Mad Indian

    Mad Indian Proud Bigot Veteran Member Senior Member

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    Dude stop peddling nonsense..even by the account of French and Israeli components being the reason for increased cost, the 60%higher costs (as per Parikkar itself) can't be explained unless the su30MKI has 40% or so western involvement by value. only LCA fanboys can make such adsurb claims that avionics and other minor components constitute 40% of the aircraft cost.

    HAL is pathetic and has been the bane of India for which its fanboys blame IAF
     
  20. Mad Indian

    Mad Indian Proud Bigot Veteran Member Senior Member

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    BTW, whatever extra charge for manufacturing SU 30 due to foreign imlorts should be balanced for the PPP and lower wages in India. HAL has no excuse for it's pathetic inefficiency

    @Sakal Gharelu Ustad . should not the price for production actually be lower in India considering the PPp and lower wages?
     
  21. Illusive

    Illusive Senior Member Senior Member

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    HAL is inefficient no doubt about it.

    Although Russians milked India well whenever it got the chance, HAL provided them every opportunity.

    http://www.saiindia.gov.in/english/..._compliance/2014/Defence/Report_35/chap_9.pdf
     

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