INSAS Indian Small Arms System

Discussion in 'Indian Army' started by plugwater, Feb 18, 2010.

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  1. plugwater

    plugwater Elite Member Elite Member

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    Now, Army wants to dump the indigenous INSAS rifle

    New Delhi: Yet another move by the Indian Army to dump indigenous equipment has come under sharp focus within the services and outside. The decision to look for a foreign replacement for the Indian small arms system (Insas) assault rifle — the standard rifle of an Indian soldier — came as the army is under attack from various quarters for its resistance to the Arjun tank.

    The Insas and Arjun are indigenously made, and are among rare successes for India, which is heavily dependent on foreign firms for defence equipment.

    The army wants to dump the Insas as it allegedly doesn’t measure up to its requirements. One of the arguments is that it does not instantly kill the enemy. But its defenders pointed out that it was not supposed to kill the enemy, but injure him so that in a battlefield more of his fellow soldiers are busy evacuating the injured.

    A serving senior officer from the infantry said it was baffling that the infantry directorate has issued a global tender for replacing the Insas. “It has been designed precisely according to our quality requirements. If we have new requirements, we should ask the ordnance factory board to rework it, and not scrap the project,” the officer, who was involved in the induction of Insas, told DNA. He pointed out that the rifle had undergone several refinements, so it is now a “good weapon”.

    Insas is a 5.56mm rifle, and performs as well as any in its class, argued its supporters. “It may not be as finished as others, but then you get an Insas for only Rs24,000. Its comparative guns are in the range of Rs1.25 lakh,” an official pointed out.

    The global RFP (request for proposal) issued for a new assault rifle for the army stipulated that it had to be lighter than 3.5kg, making impossible for the Insas to even compete in the tender; an Insas weighs 4.1kg.

    http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_now-army-wants-to-dump-the-indigenous-insas-rifle_1349259
     
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  3. ppgj

    ppgj Senior Member Senior Member

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    that is no surprise. they (IA) don't mind foreign products which are even more inferior and live with them even at the cost of national security!! the moment it happens to be a superior indian product, they will do everything to stop it!! even Ray sir likes and supports INSAS rifle.
     
  4. no smoking

    no smoking Senior Member Senior Member

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    Just curious, for what reason does india army keep rejecting these weapons? I just don't buy your arguement. They are the final user of these weapons, they would pay with their life if they make a wrong choice. I think these professional soldiers IN SERVICE would certainly know more than you and even Ray, a retired general.
     
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  5. tarunraju

    tarunraju Moderator Moderator

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    A 4.1 kg, 5.56mm rifle was destined to fail. Several users in real-life scenarios gave bad feedback. Maybe it's battle-fit, but certainly not the ideal gun for counter-insurgency and the likes.
     
  6. Singh

    Singh Phat Cat Administrator

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    The fact is the Army will go for the best weapon, especially when its essential to their duty of safeguarding national security and upholding national honour.
    These men risk their lives for us, give them a benefit of the doubt, "at least".

    There are countless stories of armed forces men actually junking their INSAS and picking up AKs of the fallen enemy.

    Good points.
    Ray sir is a retd Brigadier however.
     
  7. ppgj

    ppgj Senior Member Senior Member

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    read the article again.

    same as arjun. they give requirements just like in Arjun and then midway they reject!!

    why in the first place they inducted it?? if it was bad!!

    i think DRDO needs to stop catering to army anymore. neither they have any vision nor even any inclination to support indigenous products inspite of them being good.

    look at navy or even airforce in recent times (mig 27 and jaguar upgrades and LCA involvement). they know the value of independance in defence tech. no arm twisting from outsiders. whatever problems, which is normal for any product, the army faced were set right. only then it was inducted. RAY sir too has operated them and vouches for them.

    as for your COIN observation, it is a different matter.
     
  8. tarunraju

    tarunraju Moderator Moderator

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    Despite its "several refinements", it's a 4.1 kg 5.56mm rifle. Troops don't like it. So what a senior officer says is moot. Obviously some thought would have gone into 'dumping' the INSAS. Our ordinance factories already have licenses to make AKs, so it's not plausible that a 'foreign' influence or anything else tin-foil hat would have gone into this. INSAS may have given its makers a lot of valuable information...like how not to make a front line assault rifle. Maybe they'll come up with a better design.
     
  9. ppgj

    ppgj Senior Member Senior Member

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    tarun, you are entitled to your view. i do not want to argue on this.

    my only problem is IA just refuses anything - which unfortunately, is a product of their own requirements!!

    whether it is Arjun, INSAS or the IFV Abhay..... and all are considered contemporaries to any similar stuff.
     
  10. sayareakd

    sayareakd Moderator Moderator

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    Wowwwwwwww............!!!!!!!!!!!!! just of Rs.24,000/- any good laptop will be more costly then that.

    for Counter insurgency and anti terrorist operations it may not be good weapons of choice, nor it looks that Hi-Fi as other weapons from western countries and new chines weapons of similiar class.
     
  11. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    We cannot comment on this without knowing more information. There are too many reasons why the gun could be rejected. It could be weight, size, quality of ammo, maintenance time required and other technical details like muzzle velocity, size of ammo, size and weight of cartridges, heating problems etc.

    I don't understand why these guys make only one gun and stick to it. Make 2 or 3 different guns in the same lab and choose the best.

    My bet is the army wants to go for a Tavor like rifle which can be used for regular use as well as COIN operations, not to mention urban warfare. Light, easy to carry, easy to move about, no maintenance hassles, lesser heating problems, good quality ammo and also reliability.
     
  12. Indianrabbit

    Indianrabbit Regular Member

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    If I am not wrong even a version of Tavor is made in India right? I feel shameful when we cannot even manufacture a riefle at home, speaks low about our abilities.
     
  13. plugwater

    plugwater Elite Member Elite Member

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    I do not know why DRDO care so much about money! who cares if the gun cost 24k or 100k as long as it prevents a life of soldier its worth spending.
     
  14. sayareakd

    sayareakd Moderator Moderator

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    IF the DRDO makes ultra sophisticate gun which will cost Rs.100k then the IA will say it is just too costly, they need all the excuse to get foreign maal.
     
  15. plugwater

    plugwater Elite Member Elite Member

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    what makes you say that? first let them make a sophisticated gun then lets see what happens next.
     
  16. notinlove

    notinlove Regular Member

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    All i can do is be me, whoever that is.
    I don't know what the fuss is about .. its been in service since 1998 and it wont be replaced till what about 2013 or so ... 15 years is enough service life for a rifle...time for it to go.

    the problem is DRDO has not come up with a revolutionary design in 15 years .

    Whatever happened to the multical rifle we were hearing about?
     
  17. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    IA has alway inducted whatever fit their requirements. Eg are : Lakshya, Nishant, ALH Dhruv, Vidhwansak Anti material rifle, Nag ATGM, Daksh robot, Brahmos, Pinaka MBRL, mine clearing vehicles, grenades etc which have been inducted in large numbers.

    Many of these systems except Brahmos are available to India in the international market. So, I don't see IA not using these or giving one excuse after the other to purchase a foreign equivalent.

    Akash, AAD and PAD are also possible future purchases. However, equivalent systems like patriot and S-400 are available to us.

    IA also operates Samyukta EW system. It consists of 145 vehicles which move along with our strike corps to conduct EW missions in enemy territory. It is a recent acquisition and made in house by DRDO. There are equivalent French and Czech versions available for purchase. Perhaps more European countries will join the fray if IA asks for it.

    Just because IA does not go for one home made product does not mean they are against indigenous products. Critics are to remember that. IA will choose what's best for them and the country and not what's best for DRDO.
     
  18. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

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    Heard of this before. Its one topic that has been flogged many times. some say its good, some say its bad. As far as it not killing is concerned, well that's what this caliber weapon does. So does the M16. Many would jump up and say that is a good gun. Please we need to know the requirement of the forces. The AKs are for killing and we have them too and license produce it.

    People need to understand in what perspective something has been said rather than jump on a single phrase as what happens more often than not just to sensationalise.
     
  19. Sabir

    Sabir DFI TEAM Senior Member

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    Exactly P2prada Sir, sometimes I wonder whether the have closed their R&D unit or not. The same rifle for years.....even its look doesnt give much confidence to the person's mind who is carrying it. Other countries have gone miles ahead when it comes about experiment...
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2010
  20. Sridhar

    Sridhar House keeper Moderator

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    Dr. Saraswat also refuted criticism about the performance of made-in-India INSAS (Indian Small Arms System) rifles. He said there were no niggles in the INSAS rifle, a standard issue to the infantry and the paramilitary forces, and felt the complaints, if any, must be local in nature. The feedback from the Army indicated that the troops were satisfied with the rifle.

    http://idrw.org/?p=600
     
  21. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    Though I am using Singh's post for reply, the issues I am raising is general having observed some of the posts.

    I have graduated from the .303 to 7.62 SLR to AK 47 and then onto the INSAS. I have no complaints against any of the weapons. Even as a senior officer, I still had to pass the Annual Range Classification and so the rank has nothing to do with firing weapons.

    I learn that there is a thought that the INSAS is too fragile and has stoppages. Well, yes, INSAS is fragile compared to the AKs. Stoppages occur due to defective ammunition and poor maintenance. It can happen to any weapon. However, if there is a grouse, it is because the jawans are comparing it the AKs which are relatively maintenance proof. The grouse is causative of a lazy mindset in my opinion. Further, jawans are rugged and so they empathise with anything that is rugged. There has been no complaints about the accuracy of the INSAS vs AK 47.

    There is also a group that feels that 5.56 is not lethal. If it were not so, how come terrorists succumb to INSAS fire? And anyway, why don't they stand in front and face a INSAS shot and stay alive to tell the tale?

    In my opinion, all this change of calibre hype is US military industry driven. If an Army has to change their weapons, imagine the profits reaped by the military industry!!

    The British Army has a rifle that is 5.56 and has an effective range of 450m, so does INSAS. There is no requirement to fire beyond with a rifle since there is a plethora of weapons that are designed for longer distances. Accuracy at long distance is difficult to maintain and so long distance weapons are normally automatic in fire and so the hit probability increases. Now, if the rifle also is automatic and long distance, then by the time the enemy closes in or we close in, the ammunition will be expended. Then, the whole action will come to nought. That is why being able to hit at 300 yds is adequate and more so since the individual being fired at can be identified with the naked eye.

    One could say the rifle could have a scope. True. But if you look through a scope, you are lost to the immediate combat environment! A rifleman has to be aware of the immediate combat environment.

    The INSAS is perfectly fine in the CI environment as is AK 47. What makes it unfit? I hope someone will elaborate.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2010
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