INS Vishal (IAC- II) Aircraft Carrier

Discussion in 'Indian Navy' started by john70, Aug 21, 2012.

  1. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

    Joined:
    May 26, 2010
    Messages:
    26,095
    Likes Received:
    24,571
    Location:
    BHARAT, INDIA, HINDUSTHAN
    3 large carriers ( Vikrant, Vikramaditya, Vishal ) , 4 small-medium carriers ( Amphibious assault ships ) ..
     
    SajeevJino likes this.
  2. Punya Pratap

    Punya Pratap Regular Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2013
    Messages:
    330
    Likes Received:
    158
    Location:
    Jodhpur
    Kunal I dont know whether you can operate LHD/LPD like A/C on year round patrol basis so I would have thought 2 Medium A/C (40000-45000 tonnes) in the Bay of Bengal and 2 Large A/C (65000 + Tonnes) in the IOR and Arabian Ocean.

    Those 4 LHD/LPD are going to be special assault ops vessels so they have a different mission profile and functions!! I am however very happy that IN is going for them.... I hope and pray they have fixed wing Aircrafts besides the choppers and more capable ;)
     
  3. SajeevJino

    SajeevJino Zionist Regime Elite Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2012
    Messages:
    4,914
    Likes Received:
    2,491
    Location:
    Bye DFI .I Really Enjoyed my old Days in DFI
    Kunal sir is correct we are not going to build anymore Huge Carriers for Next 20 years after completions of IAC 2 Vishaal. but we may invest in 20000 Ton LHD/LPD type
     
  4. kurup

    kurup Regular Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2012
    Messages:
    168
    Likes Received:
    220
    Location:
    keralam
    Re: INS VISHAL : first CATOBAR aircraft carrier

    US provided the French with steam catapult to use in their AC .

    But whether they will provide us with EMALS remain to be seen ..... IMO chances are slim .
     
  5. Punya Pratap

    Punya Pratap Regular Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2013
    Messages:
    330
    Likes Received:
    158
    Location:
    Jodhpur
    Dear Sajeev,

    I read the below mentioned article where Rear Admiral (Retd) Ravi Vohra has been quoted saying IN wants 5 A/C!! That is why I said 4 will be more than enough...2 Medium and 2 Large (Nuclear + EMALS)

    India eyes US aircraft carrier technology as arms ties deepen - Economic Times

    India eyes US aircraft carrier technology as arms ties deepen
    Reuters Feb 4, 2015, 03.40PM IST

    NEW DELHI: India wants to use state-of-the-art US technology to boost the range and potency of a planned aircraft carrier, defence sources said, in a move that would tie their arms programmes closer together and counter China's military influence in the region.

    The proposal, referred to only obliquely in a joint statement at the end of President Barack Obama's recent visit to New Delhi, is the clearest signal yet that Washington is ready to help India strengthen its navy.

    Although the aircraft carrier in question would not be ready for at least another decade, such cooperation could act as a balance against China's expanding presence in the Indian Ocean.

    It would also represent a shift away from India's traditional reliance on Russian military hardware, particularly if, as some experts expect, it leads to knock-on orders for US aircraft in the longer term.

    After years of neglect, India's navy is in the midst of accelerated modernisation under Prime Minister Narendra Modi.

    It inducted an old aircraft carrier from Russia in 2014 to add to an ageing British vessel likely to be decommissioned in 2018. Last year, soon after taking office, Modi cleared funds to ensure another carrier being built domestically was ready for service in 2018.

    He also endorsed navy plans for a further carrier which would be its biggest, and it is this one that may be built with US technology, a defence ministry source and two former navy vice admirals with ties to the naval establishment said.

    The joint statement by Obama and Modi spoke of a "working group to explore aircraft carrier technology sharing and design" as part of the Defense Trade and Technology Initiative.

    Defence officials said this could lead to direct US participation in building the 65,000-tonne INS Vishal carrier.

    "The US navy is the only one that operates large carriers today, so we are looking at what they can offer, what is possible," the defence source said.

    MORE, BIGGER AIRCRAFT

    Former vice admiral Arun Kumar Singh said naval planners want a carrier that can launch heavier planes, and the only way to do that is from flat decks which US carriers have instead of Russian "ski-jump" decks.

    "The Americans, I believe, have said 'ok, we will help you design a ship and you also buy our catapults' to launch aircraft," he said.

    Former rear admiral Ravi Vohra said the Indian navy's ultimate objective was a five-carrier fleet comprising a mix of large and small carriers.

    At the heart of the proposed collaboration is a US offer to share the Electromagnetic Aircraft Launch System (EMALS) developed by General Atomics and which is now being installed on the Gerald R. Ford class of carriers that are joining the navy.

    The new system means jets can launch off a flat deck at a faster rate and with less fatigue to aircraft.

    US defence and industry officials said sensitivities over selling advanced EMALS technology to India meant any major movement on the carrier question was unlikely in the near term.

    Two sources familiar with the issue added that the US response to Indian overtures had been cool until very recently.

    "Things are finally beginning to look a lot more positive," said one of the sources, who was not authorized to speak publicly.

    For India it is a big leap. Its existing carrier force uses ski-jump ramps to help planes take off and brings them in using wires to slow them down. For that reason, planes have to be lighter and are fewer in number.

    With an EMALS system on a flat deck, India's navy planners hope to increase the number of aircraft on board the INS Vishal to 50 from 34 and field heavier fighter jets with longer reach as well as airborne early warning aircraft.

    "EMALS is one of the most revolutionary things in carrier technology because it completely changes the way you fire a plane off the top of a ship," said James Hardy, Asia-Pacific Editor for IHS Jane's Defence Weekly.

    "The Chinese have been talking about getting it for their carriers for a long time ... but it's quite a big technological ask."

    CHINESE FORAYS WORRY INDIA

    The Indian defence source said representatives of General Atomics showed the technology to members of a Naval Design Bureau working on the next-generation carrier back in 2013.

    The defence ministry declined to comment.

    China is operating a lone carrier, the 60,000-tonne Liaoning bought from Ukraine, but reports have circulated of a second carrier under development.

    China wants to develop an ocean-going "blue water" navy capable of defending its interests as it adopts a more assertive stance in territorial disputes with neighbours in the South China Sea.

    Modi has sought to improve ties with China, seeing it as a vital economic partner.

    But the government has been rattled by Chinese naval forays in the Indian Ocean, including when a submarine docked last year in Sri Lanka.

    Vijay Sakhuja, director of defence ministry-funded National Maritime Foundation think-tank, said US involvement in the flight-launch technology of an Indian carrier could lead to future deals for US aircraft makers.

    "It is early days yet, but once we get this carrier deck technology from the US, maybe there will be a joint development of fighter jets to be operated out of it."
     
  6. grampiguy

    grampiguy Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2015
    Messages:
    138
    Likes Received:
    133
    Location:
    Australia
    Problem with A/C is that to keep one on station, you need minimum three A/C in service so that refit and repair, training and other issues can work seamlessly. So six carriers mean, IN will be able to deploy two permanently in Bay of Bengal and Arabian Sea. Seems to me that IN is aiming to bring this operating ratio to 2:1.

    LHDs cannot replace a 85,000 ton carrier with 70 plus aircraft which is adequate for sea control duties. So INS Vishal needs to be in this class and IN would aim to build them till 2050, with an eye on economy. One thing is certain though, six 85,000 ton carriers with six smaller 40-45,000 ton ones including LHDs would be enough for IN's long term role in Indian Ocean.

    INS Baaz and INS Dweeprakshak would definitely be needed as unsinkable A/C but they are static locations so remain at the risk of being attacked in the early phase of a battle. Carriers are mobile and can be maneuvered as per the need. Moreover, a bunching together of carriers in any theater would bring together enormous force to bear down the adversary.

    Finally, irrespective of the hoopla around ASBM or cruise missiles, A/carriers would become the key platform for IN in future. No matter what the cynics say, sinking an A/Carrier with 5,000 personnel, multiple aircraft and immense national pride is difficult as well as a headache for any adversary, especially if the carrier owner is a nuclear weapon state. The nuclear threshold would become blurred in any such event.
     
    TrueSpirit1 likes this.
  7. TrueSpirit1

    TrueSpirit1 The Nobody Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2013
    Messages:
    1,575
    Likes Received:
    1,013
    Location:
    India
    In India's case, the Bolded part (above) never happens. No threshold is ever breached in India's case, no matter what you do to us.

    Once can get away after sinking entire IN fleet & have nothing to answer for.

    Luckily, only the US Navy has the capability to do that & there is no such foreseeable intent on USN's part.
     
  8. AbhishekDasChn

    AbhishekDasChn New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2015
    Messages:
    1
    Likes Received:
    0
    Indian Navy is planning to have 6 Aircraft Carriers & 5-9 LPD/LHD by 2040. The size of 6 Aircraft Carriers will be :- 1,10,000 tonnes(IAC-V), 1,00,000 tonnes(IAC-IV), 85,000 tonnes(IAC-III), 65,000 tonnes(IAC-II), 45,000 tonnes(INS Vikramaditya), 40,000 tonnes(IAC-I). While Indian Navy will have 4 LPD/LHD of 30,000-40,000 tonnes, 3 LPD/LHD of 25,000 tonnes, 2 LPD/LHD of 15,000-20,000 tonnes. Indian Navy may emerge as a Global Blue-Water Navy & may pose a serious threat to other great rising naval power from Asia, the PLA-Navy beyond 2030.
     
  9. SajeevJino

    SajeevJino Zionist Regime Elite Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2012
    Messages:
    4,914
    Likes Received:
    2,491
    Location:
    Bye DFI .I Really Enjoyed my old Days in DFI
    Nice .. my Wishlist too :clap:
     
  10. grampiguy

    grampiguy Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2015
    Messages:
    138
    Likes Received:
    133
    Location:
    Australia
    Your numbers look right but size of ships look like a bhel-puri mixture. I don't think any acquisition in 20-30,000 ton for LPD/LHD is in process or expected to be. IN wants 40,000 ton LHDs straightforward, no smaller ones for learning business or such. In carriers, if IN goes for six types of deadweight, it will be a nightmare logistically. Do you have any proof of your statements?
     
  11. cobra commando

    cobra commando Tharki regiment Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2009
    Messages:
    9,378
    Likes Received:
    9,691
    Location:
    (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻ ━┻
  12. grampiguy

    grampiguy Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2015
    Messages:
    138
    Likes Received:
    133
    Location:
    Australia
    Someone should advise Admiral RK Dhowan that he needs to increase the size of INS Vishal to 85,000 ton full load. An aircraft carrier with 65,000 ton would be similar to Chinese Liaoning carrier which is facing problems in carrying enough Su-33/J-15 size fighters with their full load. Same problem is there with Russian Kuznetsov carrier. The fighter size is increasing day by day and in future, 30 ton fighters may be needed to fly from carriers. This 65,000 ton carrier is horribly unsuited for this role.

    Moreover, an aircraft carrier will have a life of 45-50 years and India cannot afford to go through building 45,000 ton then 65,000 ton and then 85,000 ton and finally 100,000 ton carrier in a row. It doesn't have that much of a defence budget for so many experimentational options to learn and perfect. Indian Navy will have to leapfrog in terms of technology, similar to what it is doing in terms of going for nuclear propulsion and EMALS.

    An aircraft carrier with 85,000 ton full load will be able to carry 70+ aircraft which will be enough for Indian requirement. It will be nimble enough to maneuver while large enough to carry everything onboard. The incorporation of EMALS, nuke energy and heavy fighters will make it a force to reckon with. Indian Navy will not need to further experiment in increasing the size of its carriers. The experience gained in building INS Vishal of 85,000 ton can be used in further build of five more carriers of similar size. Then, INS Vikrant and INS Vikram can shift to local area/near seas sea control duties or supporting future 40,000 ton LHDs while INS Vishal class will become the flagship of Indian Navy.

    So Mr. Dhowan, Indian Navy needs its INS Vishal to be of 85,000 ton size full load like USS Kennedy (CV 67 ) and not of 65,000 ton like CNS Liaoning.
     
    TrueSpirit1 likes this.
  13. rohit b3

    rohit b3 Regular Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2012
    Messages:
    229
    Likes Received:
    73
    65,000 is just the approx proposed tonnage. Dont be surprised if the Carrier goes over 70,000 tons when the construction ends.
     
  14. sgarg

    sgarg Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2014
    Messages:
    3,472
    Likes Received:
    945
    I think all we can hope for is 3 Carriers in 2040. The plan is to have one carrier in construction at any given time. So when Vikrant is delivered, the next one will start. Assuming 10 year timeline for Vishal, its delivery can be expected by 2028/29.
    Vikramaditya may be retired by 2040.
     
    TrueSpirit1 likes this.
  15. DivineHeretic

    DivineHeretic Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2013
    Messages:
    1,050
    Likes Received:
    1,165
    Location:
    Assam
    It's not very prudent of me to suggest anything at this stage, but I'll mark out the following points:

    1. There has been a change in design for the INS Vishal. That is pretty much confirmed now. The original designs were to be submitted to the GOI for approval by this time of the year, last year. It was also around that time that information about this project disappeared completely, only to surface 7 months later again.

    Any way anyone wants to look at it, some modification has been implemented to the original design. What that design change is, unfortunately I can't tell.

    2. People tend to overlook that this carrier will serve all the way to 2070, and most likely beyond. That means there must exist enough space to enable future modifications to the carrier. Whether that will be in the form of increased size, tonnage or a more powerful propulsion is open to speculation.

    3. There will be 2 or 4 catapults on the IAC 2, if it goes for CATOBAR configuration. For tonnage upto 65,000 tons, it has to be 2, and for upwards of 75,000, it will be 4. Any other configuration would be sub optimal usage of deck space.

    4.If IAC 2 is a nuclear powered carrier, it will require 2 150MWt reactors, at the least. A single one may not cut it for today, and will most definitely not cut it for the future.
     
    TrueSpirit1, kurup and grampiguy like this.
  16. SajeevJino

    SajeevJino Zionist Regime Elite Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2012
    Messages:
    4,914
    Likes Received:
    2,491
    Location:
    Bye DFI .I Really Enjoyed my old Days in DFI
    Those Gentle man's Rohit and Divine is correct we don't know the design as of now, so how can we put the 65K weight line.

    and you know the French Carrier which is less than 45 K running on Nuke Power can able to Handle 40 Aircraft in Combat operation mode
     
  17. grampiguy

    grampiguy Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2015
    Messages:
    138
    Likes Received:
    133
    Location:
    Australia
    @DivineHeretic you have summed up expected capabilities beautifully.
    @sanjeevJino
    French Aircraft Carrier is actually not a good example for Indian Navy. This Charls De Gaulle carrier has been facing serious problems since the day of its commissioning. Its propulsion unit itself is the major problem. The nuclear reactors with 150 MW ratings which French picked up from their nuclear submarine program, were not enough for propelling the ship. So its not only slower than conventional carriers, it has enhanced probability of radiating its crew. In addition, the propellers tend to make so much noise that any living quarter at the aft of the ship was not possible. There are many more problems which you can find in following links, and you can google for more. This carrier is the exact type which Indian Navy should avoid building at all costs.

    French 'calamity' carrier heads for sea - again - Telegraph

    How NOT to Build an Aircraft Carrier

    The examples in 65,000 ton are CNS Liaoning and Russian Kuznetsov and I don't believe their designs or size should be touched by the Indian Navy, even with a barge pole. As @DivineHeretic mentions, four launchers and proportionate amount of lifts would be required and hence, carrier has to be suitably sized to this requirement. It also has to keep future projections in mind if its going to serve till 2070. Many new technologies are at their cusp, namely, EMALS, rail gun, Lasers, stealth fighters. So if Jonathan Greenert's philosophy is borrowed here, the platform should be capable enough for future payload additions or modifications. That's why I think INS Vishal should be 85,000 ton carrier like USS Kennedy (CV67) whose design was pretty close to future nuclear carrier designs that began as the USS Nimitz class.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 10, 2015
    TrueSpirit1 and SajeevJino like this.
  18. bhramos

    bhramos Elite Member Elite Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2009
    Messages:
    12,802
    Likes Received:
    6,312
    Location:
    Telangana/India/Bharat
    INS Vishal:
    With a 65,000 tonne displacement, Flat deck configuration, Dual-core Nuclear propulsion system and 65 aircrafts on board INS Vishal will be ready to rule Eastern Naval Command by 2020 !

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
     
  19. Compersion

    Compersion Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2013
    Messages:
    1,344
    Likes Received:
    337
    Location:
    India
    linking to rafael (if it is sealed) it might be good to get french collaboration seeing what they have done with their air craft carrier. the rafael deal (if it is sealed) has to have benefits not only in single spectrum:

    French aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle (R91) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

     
  20. blueblood

    blueblood Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2011
    Messages:
    1,037
    Likes Received:
    609
    Nope, French future carrier. They have been showing this particular model for years.
     

Share This Page