India Russia Relations

[IndianHawk]

Ok ccontinuing my post on Russian realignment. Another incident at BRICS, which indicate in Russo-China relationship, its China which is wearing pants. I did not know what I predicted will happen so soon

http://m.timesofindia.com/india/Chi...looked-the-other-way/articleshow/54903013.cms



Second my thoughts have been better explained more lucid srticle By Sushant Sareen

http://www.newindianexpress.com/opi...ions-no-druzhba-without-dough-1528279--2.html

Its common sense for Russia to tow the Chinese line for now . It's much more beneficial and influential from Russian perspective.
India needs to engage in multiple forums other than BRICS too.
A forum of India -australia-japan could easily tow Indian line. A trilateral of India Iran and Russia can certainly take more aggressive stance on terrorism.

China will block India and Russia is caught in the middle. It will balance as much as it can but ultimately it will tilt towards China .

We have the perfect antidote for china it's the uncle America . They will hang to their super power status like a mother to her baby.
We can play this game nice and easy.

 

[AnantS]

True what you said. The point of my post to re enforce my earlier thoughts on the matter. This realignment is inevitable, but for many in India, it is still difficult to believe.

 

[sorcerer]

True what wad the point of my post to renforce my earlier thoughts on the matter. This realignment is inevitable, but for many in India cannot believe still

Are you conveniently forgetting the Russian JVs with India, the investment in both nations by respective parties. etc which are long term interests for both nations.
Realignment due to regional interests and not damaging to established partnerships..yes!!

As India tries to balance its relations by diversifying its interests in what it needs..Russia will try to do the same as any nation must for its interest in the region they are dealing in.
BUT
The point is priority will be given to convergence of interests in the region for traditional relationships by both parties..India and Russia.

What many want is to toe the pakistan line that Russia is out of India or there is a pull back. Some media is peddling the "FEAR" factor as a selling point for the realignment propaganda.

It can also be argued that Russia played a maskirovka protocol USING pakistan and it worked and is working!

somehow pakistan believes or want to believe that Russia will fill the void that is USA for pakistan..if so it will only put pakistan in a straight jacket for India.

 

[mayfair]

I think comparing kill ratios without taking into account the pilot skills will reflect a very unfair picture.

Please do look into the Mig-21 kill ratio in the Indo-Pak conflict in 1971 or how the diminutive Folland Gnat turned into a "Sabre slayer".

 

[Nicky G]

Russia is simply too dependent on China and not hurt by Paki terror outfits to back India.

Thus, we definitely need to reassess our relationship in this context.

Why did we allow Russia to name al-Nusra if they did not push for LeT and JEM? Not a relationship of equals by any means.

BRICS does little but PR for India.

While Russia did not help India name-check JeM, which perpetrated both the Pathankot and Uri attacks, in the declaration, it ensured that Syria-based Jabhat al-Nusra was. As it seeks to bolster the Bashar al-Assad regime, Russia has continued to target al-Nusra, which it accuses of pursuing, through barbaric methods, a caliphate in Syria. Al-Nusra is among the groups fighting to topple al-Assad.

At Brics, Russian silence on Pak terror stuns India

 

[IndianHawk]

Yes indeed an ambiguous stand on Syria would have served us better .
We could have returned the favor to Russia , chided Beijing and might have earned browny points in Arab world .

 

[SANITY]

Moscow still views many international issues through the prism of its relations with the U.S. Such a position might put Russia-India relations at risk.

From Sept. 24 to Oct. 10, Russia and Pakistan held their “first-ever” joint military exercises in Pakistan’s province of Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa, located in the northwestern region of the country. The Russian military contingent consisted of more than 70 servicemen of the 34th mountain motorized rifle brigade of the Southern Military District. Colonel Sergey Dmitriev, commander of the 34th brigade, was present among other Russian officers at the drills.

In fact, the “first-ever” description, used by Russian and Pakistani officials and mass media regarding these military exercises, is not entirely correct. Russia has already had two naval exercises, “Arabian Monsoon – 2014” and “Arabian Monsoon – 2015,” and they were supervised by superiors of the Federal Drug Control Service of Russia. The main focus was on combatting crime groups and blocking drug traffic. Yet the Russian Navy’s involvement in these two exercises made them more than just typical counter-narcotics training.

However, in comparison with the naval exercises, the current drills, named “Druzhba-2016” (Friendship-2016), are real military exercises with combat troops, having the task of eliminating illegal armed groups and other combat and training tasks in mountainous areas.

The main arms included in the drills included Russian AK-74 assault rifles, Vintorez and SVD sniper rifles, Pecheneg and Kalashnikov PKM machine guns, under-barrel grenade launcher GP-25 Kostyor, PSS silent pistols, Pakistani M4 assault rifles, Glock pistols, and Remington sniper rifles. During the last stage of the exercises, JF-17 aircraft and Mi-17 and AH-1 Cobra helicopters of the Pakistan Air Forces appeared above the Cherat training range.

The reaction of the Indian public to the news about the joint military exercises of Russian and Pakistani troops was understandably negative. On Oct. 7 India’s ambassador to Russia, Pankaj Saran, said: “We have conveyed our views to the Russian side that military cooperation with Pakistan, which is a state that sponsors and practices terrorism as a matter of state policy, is a wrong approach. It will only create further problems.”

It echoes the opinion of many observers in India’s state-run and independent institutions. During the recent visit of top-level think tank experts from India to Moscow, a distinguished fellow at Vivekananda International Foundation, T.C.A. Rangachari, said that the relations between Russia and India were problem-free until now, when Russia has started creating problems.

The statements from Russian officials trying to calm the Indian criticism down cannot change the negative reaction from India. The initial impression was so bad because of previous information about the military exercises in two places, namely Cherat in Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa and Rattu in Gilgit-Baltistan. The latter was a part of the pre-Independence princedom of Jammu and Kashmir that in 1947 turned into a long-time disputed territory between India and Pakistan.

Military exercises in or near territories under dispute are always more than just exercises. They have an impact on domestic, regional and international politics, and are hardly welcomed by any actor involved in these territorial disputes. How would the Russian media react to military drills off the coast of the Crimean peninsula with the Indian Navy and partners from Ukraine, for instance? Or in the vicinity of the Kuril Islands with theJapan Maritime Self-Defense Force?

Russia missed an opportunity to prevent this reasonable reaction from India, fueled by a heavily armed terrorist attack on the Indian Army brigade headquarters in Uri, near the Line of Control on Sept. 18. Moscow could agree with Pakistan to postpone the military exercises and to hold them after the upcoming visit of Russian President Vladimir Putin to India to participate in the Oct. 15-16 BRICS summit in Goa. Yet Russian authorities preferred to be inflexible and insensitive to Indian feelings. What are the reasons for that?

The idea to carry out military exercises in Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa and Gilgit-Baltistan could have been initially unnoticed or ignored by those people in Russian political and military establishment who are really in charge of the relations with India, but supported by a few top-level officials in the Ministry of Defense and Ministry of Foreign Affairs. For them this idea could look attractive because of at least two reasons.

First, the military exercises with the former member of two U.S.-led military blocs - the Southeast Asia Treaty Organization (SEATO) and the Central Treaty Organization (CENTO) - and long-term major non-NATO ally of Washington could be seen by Russian bureaucrats as a symbolic victory over the United States and its influence in the world. If true, it could be yet another symptom of an old disease of Russian defense and foreign policy.

Many issues of international relations are seen by Moscow through the prism of U.S.-Russian competition. For instance, consider the negotiations on the Iranian nuclear problem. Iranians openly accused Russia of using the Iranian issue in bargaining with the United States. Later, such accusations were articulated by some Syrians about the place of the Syrian issue in the U.S.-Russian confrontation.

Second, these people in the Ministry of Defense and Ministry of Foreign Affairs seem to believe that military cooperation with Pakistan will teach the “Pakistani army not to use itself for terror attacks against India” (according to Russia’s Ambassador to India, Alexander Kadakin), and will help to fight “terrorism and drug traffic coming from Afghanistan” (as Anatoly Antonov, Deputy Minister of Defense, said in 2015).

No doubt, the Indian audience wouldn’t buy these arguments (and Afghanistan wouldn’t buy them either). Attacks on Mumbai in 2008, and military facilities in Pathankot and Uri in 2016 showed that terrorist threats from the territory of Pakistan still exist despite long-term counter-terrorism cooperation between Pakistan and the United States and a significant amount of money and military support provided by the latter to the former for this purpose.

None of these reasons takes into account the Indian dimension of the issue, raised by the military exercises between Russia and Pakistan. After signing the military cooperation agreement in November 2014 by ministers of defense from both countries, this dimension was clearly felt by everybody except those in Moscow, who still see this through the prism of U.S.-Russian competition and/or cooperation of Russia and Pakistan against terrorism and drugs threats from Afghanistan.

But how can Russia participate in sharing combat experience with Pakistan, when the latter’s own experience is based on multiple conflicts with India, which is Russia’s privileged strategic partner? How can Moscow assure Delhi that the Armed Forces of Pakistan will not use the fruits of military cooperation with Russia against India?

It’s still possible to support cooperation between Russia and Pakistan even without the dynamic development of military cooperation between these two countries. Experts cannot entirely dismiss the possibility of military cooperation between Moscow and Islamabad. This cooperation could help Pakistan to respond to security threats on its territory. Providing political, economic, and limited military support would help Islamabad address security issues before they will threaten Moscow.

But this assistance should not alter the regional balance of power or provoke India. It should not cost Moscow growing mistrust with Delhi and the potential to lose ground in India. It should be carefully developed by Moscow in the context of South Asia, not just in terms of U.S.-Russian competition or the Afghanistan drug trafficking issue.

 

[sorcerer]

Posted in appropriate thread..Was late to dig it up!!
Awww!! Snap!!

 

[sorcerer]

Russia and India may set up joint production of Il-114-300 plane


The Ilyushin Il-114-300 project in the future can become a basis for setting up a Russian-Indian joint venture, Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin said at a meeting on aviation development. According to him, a pertinent presentation has already been prepared by the Ilyushin Design Bureau and forwarded to India.

"We believe it is a good aircraft that can be offered up for joint production. At least, we will begin with assembling the aircraft on Indian territory, paving the way for its joint production in India and other countries," he said.

At the same time, Rogozin stressed that in the beginning the project’s full-scale production should be set up in Russia. He said that upon the president’s instructions the work was being wrapped up and "soon a document will be put forward, containing a synchronized schedule on the purchase of aircraft for our air companies, and the production capacities as well."

"We won’t encourage air companies to use foreign-made aircraft any more, if this sort of aircraft can be produced in Russia," Rogozin stated. "This is a tough restriction that we employ in order to protect our domestic market. We are a great aviation power and we should be ashamed of buying foreign aircraft for popular routes."

He also said that the Ilyushin Il-114-300 aircraft should be of high-quality, "its flying characteristics and image should ensure its high demand domestically and even abroad," Rogozin added. The production of the plane is scheduled to start in 2019

https://in.rbth.com/news/2016/10/18...p-joint-production-of-il-114-300-plane_639915

 

[AnantS]

Are you conveniently forgetting the Russian JVs with India, the investment in both nations by respective parties. etc which are long term interests for both nations.
Realignment due to regional interests and not damaging to established partnerships..yes!!

As India tries to balance its relations by diversifying its interests in what it needs..Russia will try to do the same as any nation must for its interest in the region they are dealing in.
BUT
The point is priority will be given to convergence of interests in the region for traditional relationships by both parties..India and Russia.

What many want is to toe the pakistan line that Russia is out of India or there is a pull back. Some media is peddling the "FEAR" factor as a selling point for the realignment propaganda.

It can also be argued that Russia played a maskirovka protocol USING pakistan and it worked and is working!

somehow pakistan believes or want to believe that Russia will fill the void that is USA for pakistan..if so it will only put pakistan in a straight jacket for India.

Seriously dude try to understand what has been posted, before bursting your veins unnecessary. Russia is tilting its balance, even Russian think tanks understand so and agree to Indian POV, that Russia is herself creating problems in otherwise normal relations. If tilt continues, both Russia and India will look for alternatives in long run. JV's and Business ventures will continue for near future. But access to cutting edge goodies from Russia will come with more & more geo-political strings attached. And for India, there is no other alternative other than to invest more heavily in its min industrial complex.

 

[AnantS]

Russia and India may set up joint production of Il-114-300 plane


The Ilyushin Il-114-300 project in the future can become a basis for setting up a Russian-Indian joint venture, Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin said at a meeting on aviation development. According to him, a pertinent presentation has already been prepared by the Ilyushin Design Bureau and forwarded to India.

"We believe it is a good aircraft that can be offered up for joint production. At least, we will begin with assembling the aircraft on Indian territory, paving the way for its joint production in India and other countries," he said.

At the same time, Rogozin stressed that in the beginning the project’s full-scale production should be set up in Russia. He said that upon the president’s instructions the work was being wrapped up and "soon a document will be put forward, containing a synchronized schedule on the purchase of aircraft for our air companies, and the production capacities as well."

"We won’t encourage air companies to use foreign-made aircraft any more, if this sort of aircraft can be produced in Russia," Rogozin stated. "This is a tough restriction that we employ in order to protect our domestic market. We are a great aviation power and we should be ashamed of buying foreign aircraft for popular routes."

He also said that the Ilyushin Il-114-300 aircraft should be of high-quality, "its flying characteristics and image should ensure its high demand domestically and even abroad," Rogozin added. The production of the plane is scheduled to start in 2019

https://in.rbth.com/news/2016/10/18...p-joint-production-of-il-114-300-plane_639915

Why IL-114-300? Its an old design! Go for MS 21 or collaborate on designing Indian Regional Jet from scratch! Please not another screwdriver giri scam!

 

[Bahamut]

Why IL-114-300? Its an old design! Go for MS 21 or collaborate on designing Indian Regional Jet from scratch! Please not another screwdriver giri scam!

They have already offered MS 21 and SSJ 100 but require minimum of 100 order confirmed by India .As for Il 104-300 it is for short haul flights similarly to other turbofan planes.

 

[gadeshi]

Why IL-114-300? Its an old design! Go for MS 21 or collaborate on designing Indian Regional Jet from scratch! Please not another screwdriver giri scam!

Il-114 is not a regional plane but a tier lower - a local routes turboprop and is more than adequate in this role being better than ATR-72.

MS-21 (Yak-242) is not a regional aircraft as well, but short to medium routes liner like A-320NEO or B-737NG.

Regional class in Russia is presented by Sukhoi Superjet-100.

Отправлено с моего XT1080 через Tapatalk

 

[sorcerer]

Why IL-114-300? Its an old design! Go for MS 21 or collaborate on designing Indian Regional Jet from scratch! Please not another screwdriver giri scam!

It a good economic replacement for ATR's which are currently plying some Tier 2 and Tier 3 routes..
Turbo props are the efficient and economic means for this Segment and is kinda like a good workhorse compared to its more powerful jet Engines.

There was a news about Indian Regional Jet getting re-spawned..so this IL-400 will be the way to get the Indian Regional Jet a start by a JV..
Learn it ...stabilize it...Indigenous it!! Thats a good way to go to make something better with economy and efficiency.

The current GoI has respawned a lot of OLD airfields and run ways and made it operational for more city to city connectivity with in India.
It will not only boost the domestic travelers but help a lot in logistics and commerce.
We badly need a lot of inter city connectivity via air and finally some good news!



Read it along with this requirements for a section of connectivity

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com...-routes-the-next-big-thing/article2465324.ece


As traffic volumes are not expected to be very high, the trick lies in the fleet. Turbo-props are smaller, cheaper and more fuel-efficient. SpiceJet's recently acquired Bombardier Q-400 has a fuel burn of 1,200 kg per hour while a Boeing 737-800 has a fuel burn of 2,400 kg per hour. An ATR-72, which is another popular turbo-prop aircraft has a fuel burn of about 800 kg per hour. Turbo-props are cheaper, as well — $27 million while the cheapest Boeing 737 is at $56.9 million.

 

[AnantS]

@sorcerer @gadeshi Thanks for the information. But the point what do we gain usng an old design, that ? I say use this opportunity to build a modern composite aircraft, with 3D printing for manufacturing. Ilyushin/Bombardier/Embraer can be roped in for the collabration. The idea is to develop designing capability as well in the house.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

@sorcerer @gadeshi Thanks for the information. But the point what do we gain usng an old design, that ? I say use this opportunity to build a modern composite aircraft, with 3D printing for manufacturing. Ilyushin/Bombardier/Embraer can be roped in for the collabration. The idea is to develop designing capability as well in the house.

I hope it's somehow linked to what you're askin for.
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/indian-aviation-sector.77315/page-2#post-1220117

 

[AnantS]

I hope it's somehow linked to what you're askin for.
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/indian-aviation-sector.77315/page-2#post-1220117

Thanks Indx TechStyle, perhaps MS 21. However its too much for short routes. Hence something on the lines of C - 295 would fit bill.Considering anyway it will be license manufactured in India by TATA

 

[sorcerer]

Thanks for the information. But the point what do we gain usng an old design, that ? I say use this opportunity to build a modern composite aircraft, with 3D printing for manufacturing. Ilyushin/Bombardier/Embraer can be roped in for the collabration. The idea is to develop designing capability as well in the house.

yeah..but these modern composite aircraft may have too much of licensed techs which those companies wont give us on a short notice and drag it forever.+

we have seen that the more tech is included in the aircraft..the more costly it becomes to operate..maintain and the spares..which is one BIG factor in this aviation industry that is trying to balance a lot of things altogether.
So aviation companies depending on such awesome ones will have a problem balancing their books and booking operational profits.

What the sector need is a work horse..something that gets the job done and then again..this is not the end of it..

So...at current level a proven work horse aircraft which is low economy to operate and on maintenance is the need for the aviation industry to bridge that gap and demand at Tier 2 and 3 cities.
There is no point in building awesome airplanes which aviations companies cannot afford on a long run in the domestic market.


As a JV is fulfilled there would be more upgrades and new designs with composite material that will materialize but that and all will depend upon how the domestic aviation sector PERFORMS in real world with the new reforms and stimulus put in to the sector.
So right now lets say that the IL is just testing the waters for an booming domestic industry. It makes perfect sense.

3D printing..would sound an economic way but how much of such manufactured parts can be PUT inside an "Airplane" which is a " very serious job of mechanics."

 

[sorcerer]

Thanks Indx TechStyle, perhaps MS 21. However its too much for short routes. Hence something on the lines of C - 295 would fit bill.Considering anyway it will be license manufactured in India by TATA

Isnt that a Mil. aircraft?
I dont know if such techs would be allowed in Civilian Sector for civilian crafts as that would be a whole different game altogether...

IMO its C 295 is only used by mil. all over the world...and there must be very specific reason why mil. aircrafts are not made available for civilian use.


MS 21 is Jet powered and it will be very costly when operating between small and short point to point travel as most of these cases the jet powered aircraft wont be reaching cruising altitude to gain fuel economy and the passenger capacity on it is 100+

Turbo props can do that job fairly easily and with less cost and fatigue


May be the domestic industry is looking at an aircraft with less than 100 pax capacity.

 

[AnantS]

@sorcerer
3D Printing in aviation is very much in realm of manufacturing. Ever aircraft manufacturer worth his salt in the market is adopting 3D printing. eg Boeing https://3dprint.com/49489/boeing-3d-print/.

Even IL 114 is going to be license produced. And again you are not getting the point. The idea is not to build jazzy planes. Idea is to build modern design & manufacturing capabilities in India. IL 114 is an old 80-90's platform. ANd how much private or even domestic aviation companies prefer Russian commercial/passenger planes, can be gauged from their almost zilch presence in their inventory. Why build a plane which will be only force fed to AI only? We should prefer clean sheet design and rope in major like Tata to produce, with assurance that it also introduces the aircraft once developed in its airlines along with AI. Or Simply choose C 295 and develop into a civilian version