Indian Mig 21 BISON v/s PAF JF 17 , who has an edge.

Discussion in 'Defence & Strategic Issues' started by mukul_2210, Jun 5, 2011.

  1. mukul_2210

    mukul_2210 Regular Member

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    I just had a look in other forum where some weird comparison were made between su 30 mki and jf 17 . Though i know, i might be degrading mig 21 BISON by comparing it with jf 17 , still want your views . In red flag training mig 21 bison outplayed F-7 AIRCRAFT proving much above its class ... i think Pakistani need bit of serious information.

    MIG BISON 21

    M/MF (Type 96); Multi-role version with one R-11-300 turbojet with 13,688 lbs. of thrust. Has 4 pylons which can carry external fuel tanks, air-to-air missiles or twin barrel guns. Has a zero speed, zero altitude ejection seat. The MF variant has a R-11F2S-300 turbojet, otherwise similar to the 'M' variant.

    Bis (Type 75); Advanced variant with further improved avionics indicated by the ILS antennae under the nose and on the fin tip. The airframe has a lifespan of 2,685 hours.

    Bison; Most advanced variant with further improved avionics incl MFDs, HOTAS, RWRs and BVR Capability.

    U/UM/US-Mongol(Type 66); Two seat trainer version with cockpits arranged in tandem, larger main wheels, one piece forward air brake and pilot boom repositioned above intake. Has no cannon armament. Has a broader-chord vertical tail surfaces and a under brake parachute housing, with a deeper dorsal spine and no dorsal fin fillet. One R-13 turbojet and 4 under-wing store pylons.

    Accommodation: Bis; Pilot on zero/zero ejection seat with spring loaded arm at top which ensures that seat cannot be operated unless hood is closed. The canopy has a small rear view mirror, a flat bullet proof windscreen and and air-conditioned cabin. Armour plating forward and aft of cockpit. The Bison is equipped with a frameless windshield and a 'Bubble' Canopy.

    Avionics: Bis;Standard avionics include automatic radio compass, IFF and a Sirena-3 RWR system. The gyro gun-sight maintains precision up to 2.75 g. Automatic ranging can be fed into gun-sight. Full blind flying instrumentation with attitude and heading indicators given by radio controlled gyro platform. The aircraft also has a search & track radar.

    Engine: Depends on aircraft variant.

    Maximum Speed: Mach 2.05

    Service Ceiling: 15,250 meters (50,000 feet)

    G Limit: ?

    Combat Radius: Internal fuel - 1100 km; 683 miles.
    With internal fuel & four 250 kg. bombs - 370 km; 230 miles.
    With two 250kg bombs and drop tanks - 740 km; 460 miles.
    A ferry range with three fuel tanks - 1800 km; 1118 miles.

    Armament: One twin-barrel 23mm GSh-23 gun with 200 rounds, in the belly pack. Has four under wing pylons for weapons or drop tanks. Can carry air-to-air missiles, rocket pods, bombs, drop tanks and other types of ordnance. In the case of the Bison, the aircraft can carry TV Guided bombs like the KAB 500.

    Maximum External Stores Load: FL; 500 kg; 1102 lbs.
    ..........................................M/MF; 2000 kg; 4409 lbs.
    ..........................................bis version; 2000 kg; 4409 lbs.
    ..........................................U/UM/US version; 1000 kg; 2204 lbs.

    Self Defence: Depends on the version of the aircraft.

    -------------------------------------------

    JF-17

    Specifications (JF-17/FC-1)

    Data from Pakistan Aeronautical Complex

    General characteristics

    * Crew: 1
    * Length: 14.0 m [74] (45.9 ft)
    * Wingspan: 9.45 m (including 2 wingtip missiles) [74] (31 ft)
    * Height: 4.77 m (15 ft 8 in)
    * Wing area: 24.4 m² [74] (263 ft&#178
    * Empty weight: 6,411 kg (14,134 lb)
    * Loaded weight: 9,100 kg including 2× wing-tip mounted air-to-air missiles [6][75] (20,062 lb)
    * Max takeoff weight: 12,700 kg [75] (28,000 lb)
    * Powerplant: 1× Klimov RD-93 turbofan
    o Dry thrust: 49.4 kN [2][8] (11,106 lbf)
    o Thrust with afterburner: 84.4 kN [2][76] (18,973 lbf)
    * G-limit: +8.5 g [2]
    * Internal Fuel Capacity: 2300 kg (5,130 lb) [6]

    Performance

    * Maximum speed: Mach 1.8 [6][35] (1,191 knots, 2,205 kph)
    * Combat radius: 1,352 km [2] (840 mi)
    * Ferry range: 3,000 km [8] (2,175 mi)
    * Service ceiling: 16,700 m [8] (54,790 ft)
    * Thrust/weight: 0.99 [2][6]

    Armament

    * Guns: 1× 23 mm GSh-23-2 twin-barrel cannon (can be replaced with 30 mm GSh-30-2)
    * Hardpoints: 7 in total (4× under-wing, 2× wing-tip, 1× under-fuselage) with a capacity of 3,629 kg (8,000 lb) external fuel and ordnance,
    * Rockets: 57 mm, 90 mm unguided rocket pods [78]
    * Missiles:
    o Air-to-air missiles:
    + Short range: AIM-9L/M, PL-5E, PL-9C
    + Beyond visual range: PL-12 / SD-10
    o Air-to-surface missiles:
    + Anti-radiation missiles
    + Anti-ship missiles: AM-39 Exocet
    + Cruise missiles: Ra'ad ALCM
    * Bombs:
    o Unguided bombs:
    + Mk-82, Mk-84 general purpose bombs
    + Matra Durandal anti-runway bomb
    + CBU-100/Mk-20 Rockeye anti-armour cluster bomb
    o Precision guided munitions (PGM):
    + GBU-10, GBU-12, LT-2 laser-guided bombs
    + H-2, H-4 electro-optically guided,[7] LS-6 satellite-guided glide bombs [77]
    + Satellite-guided bombs [7]
    * Others:
    o Up to 3 external fuel drop-tanks (1× under-fuselage 800 litres, 2× under-wing 800/1100 litres each) for extended range/loitering time

    Avionics

    * NRIET KLJ-7 multi-mode fire-control radar [49]
    * NVG compatible glass cockpit [6]
    * Helmet Mounted Sights/Display (HMS/D)
    * Infra-Red Search and Track (IRST)
    * Externally mounted avionics pods:
    o Self-protection radar jammer pod
    o Day/night laser designator targeting pod
    o Forward Looking Infra-Red (FLIR) pod
     
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  3. maomao

    maomao Veteran Hunter of Maleecha Senior Member

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    Mig-21 is a tried and tested a/c on the other hand Junk Fighter-17 is a joke at which even Chinese PLAAF din't laugh!! What do we know about the electronics and avionics of the Junk Fighter? recently, we have seen failed state pakistanis running after the French and Britons, which tells us an interesting story regarding whats inside this piece of Junk!!:)
     
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  4. satish007

    satish007 Senior Member Senior Member

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    Can not agree less, before J20 deploy, Chinese actually use mig-21 and it's copy version J7/8 to deal with F-22.
    China still is producing a lot of them every year.
    Pakistan's Mig-21 also have record that shoot down Mirage2000.
    why they use the JF-17(Joint Failure)?
    fortunately, China still have more than 1000 mig-21/J7/J8, half of them brand new.
    you know China and Pak are sleep in same bed, it is almost free if Pak want them.
    How many IAF have, just 500? and old almost can not fly?
    India should buy more Mig-21, Chinese version is cheaper but quality is ok, you guys welcome to buy. 20% off.
     
  5. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    ^^ We've had issues with our MiG-21s, but of course, allegedly, many of them had parts made in India and that was said to be the cause. In any case, good plane that is it, we have to move on to better planes. MiG-21s are not really suitable for the coming decades.
     
  6. SHASH2K2

    SHASH2K2 New Member

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    Here comes a cheap chinese item salesman. F off with your goodies, go and sell them to Pakistan on soft loans .we dont want your junk.
     
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  7. utubekhiladi

    utubekhiladi The Preacher Elite Member

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    i got to love you for that :D
     
  8. satish007

    satish007 Senior Member Senior Member

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    Meri Galti , you guys are seriously taking them.
     
  9. pankaj nema

    pankaj nema Senior Member Senior Member

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    IAF used Mig 21 upgraded bisons against US F 16 in COPE India 2004 and 2005 and as per reports available on the Internet the Mig 21 bisons caused a lot of trouble to US planes

    Mig 21 Bisons after upgradation are still very potent and can easily knock out the Junk fighter JF 17

    Mig 21 bison is a high speed interceptor .It is very useful for point defence and Combat air patrol roles

    But the phase out of Mig 21 is inevitable by 2020 as MMRCA and Su 30 Mki arrives in large numbers
     
  10. JBH22

    JBH22 Senior Member Senior Member

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    Can we please have a civilised discussion without labelling other fighters as (junk fighter or joint failure) we are way better to indulge in such cheap talks.If one want to compare the specifications of both fighter a humble request of mine please do it in a civilised way thanks...

    If we call JF-17 (junk fighter or whatever) note that Chinese or Pakistanis have more grounds to label Mig-21 as flying coffins don't denigrate your adversary to make yourself feel better...
     
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  11. utubekhiladi

    utubekhiladi The Preacher Elite Member

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    i wont mind if they call mig21's as flying coffins :D


    wht? i am just saying :D
     
  12. SHASH2K2

    SHASH2K2 New Member

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    You are not a chinese . you are either a pakistani or Indian masquerading as chinese .
     
  13. JBH22

    JBH22 Senior Member Senior Member

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    Even i have no problems with that but when people here tend to use derogatory nicknames for planes that have yet to show their combat record its pretty cheap let that sh!t to our neighbours and Zaid Hamid.
     
  14. gogbot

    gogbot Regular Member

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    Mig-21 has better radar with longer range ,
    they have smaller profile
    they have better T/W ratio , it can probably climb and turn faster
    It can carry and fire an R-77

    JF-17 does not even have proper BVR missile or radar yet.
    At the very least , because of the AWACS support they have , their radar disadvantage would not be a major issue.
    Same applies for MIg-21 as well.

    Interestingly Mig-21's can achieve electronic stealth using jamming pods proved during the US exercises , simply due to their small profile. With their radars off Mig-21's can get very close. I don"t think this works against the AWACS however.

    Honestly AWACS pretty much ensure the aircraft that has the lower profile, faster climb rate and longer range missile wins the engagement. In this case that is the Mig-21.

    Also PAK can barely even afford to upgrade their F-16's(which is their most capable and roughly equivalent to our Mig-29's) , what money is left for their JF-17's.

    As of now pak has only an order of 50 of these aircraft , and now they are asking for block 2 from chines after failing to bring in Europeans to upgrade the aircraft

    Like the F-16 its an aircraft Pakistan has for show more than practicality , in reality the JF-17 it still many upgrades away from becoming a capable fighting aircraft.
     
  15. pankaj nema

    pankaj nema Senior Member Senior Member

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    If war breaks out then JF 17 and Mig 21 CLASH is inevitable

    Because Presently PAF has allocated the role of Close air support to JF 17 .it means that JF 17 will attack the Indian armour and mechanised formations

    In India pak war situation , Mig 21 will provide air cover to Mig 27 and Jaguar which will be used for carpet bombing the pak army assets and formations

    The mig 21 will at the most go 70 to 80 km inside the border because of its limited range

    The Big boys like Su 30 mki Mig 29, Mirage 2000 are meant for deep strikes and taking out the F16 as well as important ground assets like Command and control centres and radar stations
     
  16. bhramos

    bhramos Elite Member Elite Member

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    may be he is Indian or Pakistani studying in China's Cheap Uni a Cheap Degree or Cheap MBBS....
    as MBBS in China dont costs more then 5laks per yr....... but where as in India.... you know about it....
     
  17. A.V.

    A.V. New Member

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    Why would you want to compare a fighter developed in 1960 with the one developed in 2000?
     
  18. bhramos

    bhramos Elite Member Elite Member

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    May be I think 1960 fighter is still strong enough to beat or be equal to 2000 made fighter.....
    Still MiG-21Bis is Frontline interceptor fighter of IAF...
     
  19. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    The Mig-21 will beat the JF-17 in BVR only because the JF isn't equipped with capable BVR as of today.

    The Block 2 they are planning with Italian avionics and radar will beat the Bison.
     
  20. mukul_2210

    mukul_2210 Regular Member

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    I know , time will tell what is BISON capable of . Till now it has proved it can easliy take down the best . I also read an article which said Indian air force might load mirage 2000 and mig bison with cluster bomb which they will get from U.S . It would be deadly . Do any one knows, when delivery of such bombs will be made to india . ????
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2011
  21. mukul_2210

    mukul_2210 Regular Member

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    And their is not much difference between jf 17 and f 15 . Bison is an astonishing fighter and much much superior than f-15 . US air force were very impressed the way mig 21 bison performed ....itz an upgraded and most advance version , so calling it a 1960 z plane wont be fair . Some facts below

    Those remarks came in an explicitly candid assessment by an unidentified USAF pilot posted on 4 November on the YouTube online video sharing service. “Now what I’m scared of is Congress is going to hear that and go – ‘Great, we don’t need to buy any more airplanes. No, no, no, no,'” the pilot tells an audience that includes retired air force leaders.

    He adds that “it’s only a matter of time” before the IAF Su-30 pilots learn how to overcome the manoeuvre used so successfully against them at the international Red Flag exercise.

    The F-15 pilots used their simulated combat experience against the thrust vectoring capability of the Lockheed Martin F-22 to exploit a vulnerability of the Su-30 in a hard turn, the pilot said.“So we start to pull in on him, and then all of a sudden you start to see the [Su-30’s aft-] end kick down and he starts doing vectored thrust,” the pilot says.

    “But now he starts falling out of the sky. He’s falling out of the sky so fast that you don’t even have to go up,” the pilot adds. “You just have to pull back on the stick a little bit, pull the throttle, go to guns and come in and drill his brains out.” Even so, the professionalism and skill of the IAF pilots at Red Flag gained the respect of the USAF pilots.

    However, French Air Force pilots, who deployed to the same event with the Dassault Rafale fighter, apparently engaged in non-friendly activities.“They never really came to any merges,” the pilot explains.

    “What they were really doing was, they had all their sensors on sniffing and seeing how our radars worked. And that’s really all they were doing out here. They came out here and they watched the whole flight, with their newest airplane and their newest electronic receiving units, and sucked up all the ‘trons in the air.”

    The pilot also says the IAF’s MiG-21 Bison aircraft, modified with Israeli radar, active radar missiles and electronic jammers, are nearly “invisible” to the F-15 and F-16’s current mechanically-scanned arrays, allowing the Indian pilots to sneak past the USAF radar screen and engage the F-15s and F-16s in dogfights.

    “The MiG-21 had the ability to get in the scissors with you at 110kts at 60 degrees nose high and go from 10,000 to 20,000 feet,” he said.


    The Su-30MKI deployment to Mountain Home AFB, Idaho, for the exercise was complicated by the low-reliability of the Russian made engines, the pilot adds.

    “One of the things the Indians were very disappointed in, was when they FOD’d an engine out, the Russians make them send the engine back to Russia, and then they’ll send them a new one,” the pilot says. “So, not the perfect situation for them being here in the United States with those engines.”

    The pilot did not identify himself in the videos, but there were several clues to his status. He wore a fighter pilot’s G-suit, and he referred to a patch on his shoulder that indicated he was a member of the Fighter Weapons School at Nellis AFB. He also referred to Nellis as “here”, indicting this was the location where his lecture took place
     
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