India's Interest in Lockheed F-35 Fighter

[Immanuel]

well the F-35 for IAF wont be ready on time and hence not possible unless both bids from EF and Rafale go way beyond the MOD's benchmark deal value. However, if India were to order 200 F-35s for the IAF, i am sure we are bound to get local assembly? if the same MRCA rfp rules apply, 60 percent of tech can be transferred. 200 aircraft will certainly be the largest order. Ideally we can just order 250 F-35. We'd be the only AF to operate 3 types of stealth fighters. 250 FGFA, 250 AMCA, 250 F-35 would be a great combo. The F-35 offers very long range detection especially for ground launched missiles, DAS can detect launches at over 800 miles away

such capability could be awesome especially due to threat from missiles in our region. F-35 scores highest in net centricity, radars, and cutting edge avionics. We have already acquired a ton of stuff from US and this will only increase. EF and Rafale have a huge content of US made parts so they ae just as vulnerable to US pressure. TOT on both EF and Rafale will require US clearances. Better to deal with them directly and have good offers. They certainly wont give away a lot of TOT on the F-35. But neither is Russia doing that. Our workshare on the PAKFA remains at 25 percent. We will however be able to get local assembly with considerable TOT on critical parts.
F-35's DAS Demonstrates Ballistic Missile Defense Capabilities

The F-35 for navy is most likely a big possibility. IN had issued an RFI and F-35 was offred however RFP is still a while away. In will probably end up buying it. We just need a test flight to be impressed. F-35s sensors surpass anything out there.

 

[p2prada]

What are you're numbers based on? The USAF considers the F 35 an overpricxed joke and the only reason its still being sold to them is kickbacks to the politicians. After all it is supposed to be the biggest defence contract in US history ever.

LOL. No. Even the USAF is quite serious about the F-35. LM stated a 400% superiority in combat effectiveness compared to a legacy F-16 or F-15. You could say LM is exaggerating and simply reduce it to 200% FFS. The PAKFA is said to be between 100 to 200% more effective than the MKI as stated by our Air chief. Considering the Russians were saying the PAKFA will match the F-35 in technology while exceeding the F-22 in maneuverability, we can have an estimated comparison chart for the F-35.

The F-35 is a kick ass fighter plane, don't get carried away by Carlo Kopp's aversion to F-35. When it comes to dog fights the Gripen has a high chance of beating any MRCA aircraft or the MKI to the point where the Gripen is superlative in a maneuvering fight, that does not mean the Gripen can match the MKI head to head. It is the same for the F-35. The F-35 is quite good in a dog fight, and ok in the supersonic regime as compared to MKI. But where it wins is in the BVR regime.

You could say the F-35 is simply far superior to any single engine aircraft flying today and it's aerodynamics are best compared to a twin engine aircraft.

 

[trackwhack]

My local baker tells me the cakes he bakes are 400% better than the cakes the baker across the street makes. I dont understand. The F 35 and the FGFA are still on development. On every measurable aspect the F 35 comes short namely
1) Radar Cross section (yes its true, though both are neglgebly small)
2) Combat Radius
3) Payload capacity
4) Speed
5) Altitude Celing
6) COST

The only immesurable here is the EW capabilities. But we dont even know for sure whats going into either of these systems and if India will ever get a fully loaded F 35. The FGFA does not yet have a naval variant, but I am only debating the big numbers you have stated.

How is it superior, I just dont understand.

 

[pmaitra]

An eclectic mix = logistics nightmare.

Not saying F-35 is bad. Actually I don't really know. All I am saying is that we have or are soon going to have BAe Sea Harriers, N-LCA and MiG-29K in our inventory. Do we need to add more variety?

 

[p2prada]

1) Radar Cross section (yes its true, though both are neglgebly small)

Yes.

2) Combat Radius

Pretty good for both. The F-35s combat radius is superior to the F-22.

3) Payload capacity

Internal payload of the PAKFA is still not clear. It is more than F-35, but not a massive advantage considering the Russian doctrine allows firing twice as many missiles for an increased kill probability.

4) Speed

Not a major disadvantage with today's BVR missiles. Bad for running away in certain situations.
Lack of supercruise on F-35 is an obvious disadvantage, but not a necessity considering it has a good combat radius.

5) Altitude Celing

Yes, and that's one of the reasons why PAKFA is as good as the F-22. That and speed.

6) COST

The American bird could be cheaper in the long run. PAKFA is a heavier bird with two engines and more parts.

You are forgetting a 7th point which gives F-35 an advantage, Avionics. Two major equipments here, AESA radar and the RWR. The AESA gives a detection capability that equals the F-22 at it's best. The RWR is said to be able to detect signals from a distance of 800Km at the very least. Quite similar to the abilities of the Phalcon. It carries an IRST as well and certain other pieces of electronics being developed at Area 52(ask Gambit, but he won't tell) and other places, something to do with Active Cancellation and Plasma aerodynamics.

When it comes to aerodynamics USAF is of the opinion that the F-35's acceleration matches the F-22 in the subsonic regime. So, that's where F-35s dog fighting capabilities lie. Quite similar to the Super Hornet.

We can't really compare the PAKFA to the F-35 head to head because they have different design principles. Both have certain advantages and disadvantages. That's why the USAF has the F-22 to cover the gap while Russia does not yet have something similar. However India has the same chance as the USAF. With a combination of PAKFA and F-35 we have the master of the skies(PAKFA IMO) and the jack of all trades(F-35) when it comes to facing both Pakistan and China.

 

[p2prada]

An eclectic mix = logistics nightmare.

Not saying F-35 is bad. Actually I don't really know. All I am saying is that we have or are soon going to have BAe Sea Harriers, N-LCA and MiG-29K in our inventory. Do we need to add more variety?

The Navy may have considered it. They obviously have room for one more right now. Sea Harriers will be phased out by 2018 along with INS Viraat. It is expected to be decommissioned once IAC-2 is inducted in 2017(rumors).

 

[Neil]

^^^ sir...do u think thats such capabilities that u are talking about will be given to India..??F-35 is a 5th gen fighter plane so it really does have awesome capabilities but such capabilities will be given to India is billion dollar question...

 

[Tshering22]

Its better than buying rafale or sea gripen or euro fighter naval or more of that not much use at sea NLCA. F-35- 200 of them is a requirement for Navy, other than 50 MiG29K and 50 NLCA, there is no naval variant for PAKFA, not much known about AMCA

How do you know there's no Naval variant of PAKFA yet? We first got the sea-attack version of BrahMos and within 6-8 years of it we're getting the A2A version of it. Spin-offs are usually pretty quick. Besides, I think Admiral Verma mentioned it already that MiG-29Ks would suffice even beyond the current order of 45 Ks for Vikramaditya and Vikrant. Its not like MDL is going to finish making Vishal (IAC-III) by 2015 that we're worrying so much about. Heck! there's no news on Vikrant II since last 2 months.

That's good - India should get the F-35C for it's future CATOBAR carriers (IAC-2 onwards). If India agrees to buy the F-35C, hopefully the USA can help India with CATOBAR technology to launch the F-35Cs too, it will be an important step for Indian Navy's aspirations for dominating IOR and developing an effective counter to any future PLAN CBGs.
With the nuclear technology deals, maybe India can even get nuclear reactor designs and technology for a nuke powered carrier from the USA.

I don't think you read the recent disaster of unsafe training on F-35 that now they're seeing after throwing $ 400 billion into the R&D. After panic expressed by 3 participating members of the consortium, reluctance of another two and now finally Pentagon's own senior officials admitting the risks involved and the improbability involved, I shall pray that this loser of a government doesn't agree to join the program.

We got enough jet fighter programs in the pipeline. With HAL's red-tape hand-made assembly lines, we don't want to burden them with something that would take them a century to make. Unless and until we get full fledged assembly lines en masse like the Chinese, we can't keep getting new projects.

 

[trackwhack]

p2p

I dont think we are getting a fully loaded F 35 with the EW capabilities you stated. That bird will cost us a cool $300 mil + per unit if thats true. at that rate 200 of those would be a 60 billion dollar bill. Not gonna happen!

On the other hand the PAKFA even if it costs the same, we are a joint stake holder in the design and development. We learn a lot.

We are developing our own AESA radar. The Russians are equipping us with their AESA radar. AESA is a principle. Its not a copyright and there is nothing like an American AESA is better than an Indian AESA or Russian AESA.

 

[arya]

there is no harm if we induct 40-50 for Indian navy

well use can provide them with in 4 years

 

[ace009]

The Apache deal is peanuts. You want to compare a purchase of 200 5th gen aircrafts on par with the Apache deal. What are you smoking?
As an Indian American you may feel comfortable cozying up to the Americans. As an Indian, I do not. Russia is a tried and trusted friend and nothing is worth ruining that friendship.

My being an "Indian-American" may have something to do with my idea of India "cozying up" to America. However, being in the USA and being in the R&D industry I see everyday how far advanced USA technology is compared to the rest of the world, whether the Europeans (sorry Armand), the Japanese or the Russians ... It's more true for military technology. I would love to see some of that technology go to India - both civilian and military. I would especially love to see the best of military techs available to India - like the 5th gen fighters, the Aircraft carriers and the nuclear powered engines.

As for the Russians - we have been shafted by them time and again over and over for the last 15 years or so - and we still think that they are our "tried and tested" friend. They have shafted us on the Gorshkov deal, in the upgradation of the Mig-29s, the attempt to sell a lemon for MMRCA (Mig-35), the ToT for MKI, the T-90s, the submarines and more. And the Russians have snubbed us by selling tech to China, offering to sell to Pakistan, refusing to take part in naval exercises, by limiting the co-development for FGFA etc etc. So, "nothing" is worth ruining THAT relationship? Sounds like India is married to Russia and deals with USA will be like an extramarital affair. My question is, what are YOU smoking?

Also, the more important aspect is development our homegrown capabiliites, even if slighly inferior, in the long run more beneficial as dependencies will be less and hence leverage with other nations more.
I dont expect you to wrap your brains around that one though.

What homegrown capability development you think is being helped by our deals with Russia that cannot happen with USA? Russia is not helping us develop the Kaveri engine (France), the MBT engine (Germany), the LCA designs (France again), the carrier designs (??), the nuclear submarine designs (??), the self-towed arty guns (??#@&*%), the new generation Radars (Israel). THe few cases where India is "partnering" with Russia, the Russians are claiming most if not all technological IP (Brahmos, 5th gen sensors). One of the main reasons is that Russia is still a totalitarian state and by partnership, they CANNOT think beyond their "state ownership".

IMHO, India's development capabilities will be MUCH MORE enhanced by partnering with USA than with Russia. Firstly because most of the "development" is done by private companies, who care less about which countries flag is being flown and more about who foots the bill and how much bottom line can be increased. Also because USA has had a long history of co-development with other countries like UK, France, Canada and Germany - Nuclear reactor development during the cold war, development of the Harrier jets, the Gas-turbine powered aircraft carriers, the missile delivery systems and "tactical nukes".

Compared to that the Soviets or the Russians have never really had any experience in "co-development" since they were always going solo, never really trusting their "allies" in the eastern block.

But, I can see how you think India will be overshadowed by the USA in any "co-operation" part - yet think of Japan, Korea, Australia - all of which have benefited greatly from partnering with the USA since 1950, being bullied by the USA notwithstanding. Compared to them, India is in a much stronger situation NOW (with tonnes of Money and other sources available).

 

[pmaitra]

However, being in the USA and being in the R&D industry I see everyday how far advanced USA technology is compared to the rest of the world, whether the Europeans (sorry Armand), the Japanese or the Russians ... It's more true for military technology. I would love to see some of that technology go to India - both civilian and military. I would especially love to see the best of military techs available to India - like the 5th gen fighters, the Aircraft carriers and the nuclear powered engines.

I would stick to military tech only. The US is way behind France and Germany when it comes to trains. They are way behind Germany and Japan when it comes to cars. They are way behind the Russians when it comes to passenger space vehicles. Let us keep it real.

IMHO, India's development capabilities will be MUCH MORE enhanced by partnering with USA than with Russia. Firstly because most of the "development" is done by private companies, who care less about which countries flag is being flown and more about who foots the bill and how much bottom line can be increased. Also because USA has had a long history of co-development with other countries like UK, France, Canada and Germany - Nuclear reactor development during the cold war, development of the Harrier jets, the Gas-turbine powered aircraft carriers, the missile delivery systems and "tactical nukes".

No, we should be open to any country as long as they provide the best knowledge to us. The Russians may build a slightly inferior plane to the US, but if they are willing to share more, we should partner with them. Our long term goal is to stand on our own feet.

Compared to that the Soviets or the Russians have never really had any experience in "co-development" since they were always going solo, never really trusting their "allies" in the eastern block.

Not true. TsAGI, MiG and Sukhoi co-developed the MiG-29 and Su-30. However, the Western Europeans are best when it comes to co-development.

Firstly because most of the "development" is done by private companies, who care less about which countries flag is being flown and more about who foots the bill and how much bottom line can be increased.

The US companies cannot violate US laws and collaborate with anyone outside the US.

 

[trackwhack]

My being an "Indian-American" may have something to do with my idea of India "cozying up" to America. However, being in the USA and being in the R&D industry I see everyday how far advanced USA technology is compared to the rest of the world, whether the Europeans (sorry Armand), the Japanese or the Russians ... It's more true for military technology. I would love to see some of that technology go to India - both civilian and military. I would especially love to see the best of military techs available to India - like the 5th gen fighters, the Aircraft carriers and the nuclear powered engines.

As for the Russians - we have been shafted by them time and again over and over for the last 15 years or so - and we still think that they are our "tried and tested" friend. They have shafted us on the Gorshkov deal, in the upgradation of the Mig-29s, the attempt to sell a lemon for MMRCA (Mig-35), the ToT for MKI, the T-90s, the submarines and more. And the Russians have snubbed us by selling tech to China, offering to sell to Pakistan, refusing to take part in naval exercises, by limiting the co-development for FGFA etc etc. So, "nothing" is worth ruining THAT relationship? Sounds like India is married to Russia and deals with USA will be like an extramarital affair. My question is, what are YOU smoking?



What homegrown capability development you think is being helped by our deals with Russia that cannot happen with USA? Russia is not helping us develop the Kaveri engine (France), the MBT engine (Germany), the LCA designs (France again), the carrier designs (??), the nuclear submarine designs (??), the self-towed arty guns (??#@&*%), the new generation Radars (Israel). THe few cases where India is "partnering" with Russia, the Russians are claiming most if not all technological IP (Brahmos, 5th gen sensors). One of the main reasons is that Russia is still a totalitarian state and by partnership, they CANNOT think beyond their "state ownership".

IMHO, India's development capabilities will be MUCH MORE enhanced by partnering with USA than with Russia. Firstly because most of the "development" is done by private companies, who care less about which countries flag is being flown and more about who foots the bill and how much bottom line can be increased. Also because USA has had a long history of co-development with other countries like UK, France, Canada and Germany - Nuclear reactor development during the cold war, development of the Harrier jets, the Gas-turbine powered aircraft carriers, the missile delivery systems and "tactical nukes".

Compared to that the Soviets or the Russians have never really had any experience in "co-development" since they were always going solo, never really trusting their "allies" in the eastern block.

But, I can see how you think India will be overshadowed by the USA in any "co-operation" part - yet think of Japan, Korea, Australia - all of which have benefited greatly from partnering with the USA since 1950, being bullied by the USA notwithstanding. Compared to them, India is in a much stronger situation NOW (with tonnes of Money and other sources available).

Whatever floats you boat man, I cant debate with someone who claims to be in the " R&D field " yet thinks Purchasing Power of a currency is an imaginary term made up by the rich countries to make third world countries feel good.

BTW here is somehting to keep you busy.

1 Tablet of Plan B : $45
1 Tablet of iPill : $2

Yeah, I get laid often, both when I'm here and back home

 

[ace009]

Whatever floats you boat man, I cant debate with someone who claims to be in the " R&D field " yet thinks Purchasing Power of a currency is an imaginary term made up by the rich countries to make third world countries feel good.

BTW here is somehting to keep you busy.

1 Tablet of Plan B : $45
1 Tablet of iPill : $2

Yeah, I get laid often, both when I'm here and back home

That's the ultimate in d!ck measurement I guess ... since you get laid in the USA and India both and know the price of the women's birth control pill, I guess you must be VERY knowledgeable about military technology, research and development and economics too.

PPP again? Why don't you read up an economic textbook to figure out what it is. For Indian military purchases, you may begin to realize how useless it is to count on the Indian GDP-PPP figures ... Here's a thought. Say, you have a gross monthly salary of 1 lakh rupees in Bangalore - which gives you the ability to buy a Tata Indigo (at 6 lakhs) with 6 month of your gross salary. If you want to buy a "foreign-car" like Honda civic on the other hand, you will be paying 12 lakhs (primarily because of taxes and import duties), equivalent to one year of your gross salary - right?
Now, the same Honda Civic sells for $18,000 in the USA - equivalent to 3-4 months of someones gross salary here.

By the way, that one tablet of Plan B or iPill you are comparing, has NOTHING to do with PPP. It's to do with pricing strategy. In India pricing is fixed by government or is cost-based pricing due to low purchasing power of the masses. In the USA most pricing is "market based" - i.e. what the market (consumers) is willing to pay. This actually points out that Indian consumers are willing to pay MUCH less for a reproductive pill than the average US consumer. Where does PPP come in here?

Anytime India buys a foreign product (which is 80-90% of all advanced military technology in India), the PPP goes out of the door and the real GDP comes into play.

Back to topic, @Pmaitra

Actually, currently US Automakers are not that far behind the Japanese - Ford is actually making and selling most cars better than Honda and Nissan and in some segments better than Toyota. Myself being a Honda and Toyota owner, it is a shock to me to see how much advanced Ford is compared to 5-6 years back.

As for railways, it never has taken off that well in the USA - so that is one sector where Europeans and the Japanese are way ahead of the US.

But I was talking about Computers, advanced electronics, medical technology, communications, optics etc - in most of them the USA is miles ahead of their competitors.

In military technology, especially for a 5th generation fighter, I would trust and believe the company who have designed, developed and produced the ONLY existing 5th generation fighter ANY DAY over our friends in Russia who have been screwing us over the Gorshkov, the Brahmos development and lately trying the same with FGFA.

That's my take.

 

[trackwhack]

That's the ultimate in d!ck measurement I guess ... since you get laid in the USA and India both and know the price of the women's birth control pill, I guess you must be VERY knowledgeable about military technology, research and development and economics too.

PPP again? Why don't you read up an economic textbook to figure out what it is. For Indian military purchases, you may begin to realize how useless it is to count on the Indian GDP-PPP figures ... Here's a thought. Say, you have a gross monthly salary of 1 lakh rupees in Bangalore - which gives you the ability to buy a Tata Indigo (at 6 lakhs) with 6 month of your gross salary. If you want to buy a "foreign-car" like Honda civic on the other hand, you will be paying 12 lakhs (primarily because of taxes and import duties), equivalent to one year of your gross salary - right?

Now, the same Honda Civic sells for $18,000 in the USA - equivalent to 3-4 months of someones gross salary here. So, that's PPP for you.

My delusional Desi Friend.. The American Honda Civic is a piece of plastic crap made to satiate the desi taste. Its not even in the same class as the base model Civic sold in India. You obviously havent driven one or the other. I have driven both. But please, continue to swim in your river of economic delusions. And yeah, don't throw away that economics text book that taught you all this.

And since you keep harping about the defence expenditure : Here is a little stat for you. Of the 1.8% of our GDP that we spend on defence, less than a quarter is spent on defence procurements. So please drop the same old stupid argument.

 

[trackwhack]

That's the ultimate in d!ck measurement I guess ... since you get laid in the USA and India both and know the price of the women's birth control pill, I guess you must be VERY knowledgeable about military technology, research and development and economics too.

PPP again? Why don't you read up an economic textbook to figure out what it is. For Indian military purchases, you may begin to realize how useless it is to count on the Indian GDP-PPP figures ... Here's a thought. Say, you have a gross monthly salary of 1 lakh rupees in Bangalore - which gives you the ability to buy a Tata Indigo (at 6 lakhs) with 6 month of your gross salary. If you want to buy a "foreign-car" like Honda civic on the other hand, you will be paying 12 lakhs (primarily because of taxes and import duties), equivalent to one year of your gross salary - right?
Now, the same Honda Civic sells for $18,000 in the USA - equivalent to 3-4 months of someones gross salary here.

By the way, that one tablet of Plan B or iPill you are comparing, has NOTHING to do with PPP. It's to do with pricing strategy. In India pricing is fixed by government or is cost-based pricing due to low purchasing power of the masses. In the USA most pricing is "market based" - i.e. what the market (consumers) is willing to pay. This actually points out that Indian consumers are willing to pay MUCH less for a reproductive pill than the average US consumer. Where does PPP come in here?

Anytime India buys a foreign product (which is 80-90% of all advanced military technology in India), the PPP goes out of the door and the real GDP comes into play.

Back to topic, @Pmaitra

Actually, currently US Automakers are not that far behind the Japanese - Ford is actually making and selling most cars better than Honda and Nissan and in some segments better than Toyota. Myself being a Honda and Toyota owner, it is a shock to me to see how much advanced Ford is compared to 5-6 years back.

As for railways, it never has taken off that well in the USA - so that is one sector where Europeans and the Japanese are way ahead of the US.

But I was talking about Computers, advanced electronics, medical technology, communications, optics etc - in most of them the USA is miles ahead of their competitors.

Our resident "Wall Street" expert notwithstanding. No hurt feelings mate ...

Also, which school of economics taught you that a Bangalorean earning a lac a month is equivalent to an American earnining $18,000 K in 3-4 months?

I live here sir, with $4500 USD a month, its a pretty ordinary life, nothing special.
I've lived in Bangalore too, at Rs 1 lac a month, its a bloody decent life.


Now this takes the cake
By the way, that one tablet of Plan B or iPill you are comparing, has NOTHING to do with PPP. It's to do with pricing strategy. In India pricing is fixed by government or is cost-based pricing due to low purchasing power of the masses. In the USA most pricing is "market based" - i.e. what the market (consumers) is willing to pay. This actually points out that Indian consumers are willing to pay MUCH less for a reproductive pill than the average US consumer. Where does PPP come in here?

Cipla, a multinational, sells the rights to Piramal, a completely private, listed company whcih sells the pill at Rs 100. And you argument is that the government set that price?? Are you even listening to yourself? Whats your next argument? That Plan B has a better hit ratio at doing its job?

 

[Adux]

Since we are on a thread specific to a military transaction, I must state points on two fronts – the strategic implications as well as the military wisdom of incorporating American hardware.

From a military hardware perspectivce:
- We are creating a monster with the variety that exists in our defence procurements. The number of weapons systems that are incompatible on different platforms is already a pain that we are dealing with – Russian, French, British and Israeli

Yes, we do have a logistical nightmare, but the F-35 is one single unit, unlike let's say INS Shivalik, which is a hotpotch of different countries or even NLCA.

- Our diversification in procurement is a double edged sword. We may or may not get access to technologies but even if we do it is at the cost of impeding our own development. We will end up doing what the Chinese do – only legally

It depends when the forces want it.

- The AESA development timeline is far shorter than the proposed procurement timelines. We would have also significantly enhanced the Astra BVRAAM by then – it will possibly be THE missile in 10 years. The LCA already uses more composites than any other modern plane. Do not underestimate the progress we have made in material and nano-science and hence stealth thereof. In the AMCA the DRDO and HAL finally have the opportunity to break the shackles and come up with a plane that counts among the best.

NLCA has NO Range, it is not the fighter IN is looking for. IN is looking for a fighter which is not as short legged as NLCA. Regarding AMCA, Timelines is all that matters, We have to achieve 200 fighter IN air power by 2022 vision document, AMCA is to be inducted in 2030 as per new Ashok Nayak interview. The Navy wont wait for that, and it shouldnt.

- Assuming the F 35 is even 25% better, the caveats it comes with are not worth it. In the longer run the AMCA will be far more beneficial to us than any foreign procurement. I really hope the FGFA will be the last big military hardware India will ever need to buy.

Our threats are just way too great , advanced and over-whelming for the Armed Forces to wait for DRDO, ADA and others to catch up to adequately give them a system. I expect India to go down a route, where we will partner with many countries on a very high level. China will kill for such opportunity. It will be some headed by us, some headed by others; though role will be equal and from the R&D stage.

I just do not see military sense in buying the F 35 – too many strings attached and will impede our own development programs

You have to see whether we have an option for the Navy's requirement from the 2022 perspective? I agree with you, in regards to F-35 shouldnt allowed to stop the MMRCA or FGFA/PAKFA program. But for the Navy's requirement of 100 fighters before 2022, they do fit the bill.

From a geo-strategic perspective
- America does not have an EQUAL ally. They never have, they never will. I will not even try to explain this but you can choose to point out a single ally of America that is treated as an equal. (when the French said they did not want to fight in Iraq, the twats here renamed French Fries as Freedom Fries!!!).

I think I have a little more confidence in India regarding this. Everything changes. USA is quite aware of what India is and will be. But India has to act like global power, it has to show its confidence. Our people will need to behave like we belong to a global power. What has happened before, will not happen again. But PakChin will.

As a fiercely nationalistic and independent Indian, I feel very strongly about anything to do with being sheltered by the US umbrella. Now you may say that's not how it is going to be, but not one American will think otherwise. Not one American will think of India being an EQUAL partner. Over time, this alliance is going to become one of such severe dependence that we will eventually have to start towing the US line on International Affairs. Pointer – Iran sanctions.

All good, As fiercely nationalistic and independent you are, I do hope you are rationalist and realist. The PakChin threat is very real. We need help. I think you are over-estimating US to influence India, they will not be able to do anything of that above. Ofcourse we will have to give them a few, and they will do the same. We might have budged a little for Iran, but do you think it came without any reciprocity? Indo-Afghan agreement has complete blessings of the US. What about Vietnam? Not everything is going to happen as India wants, not everything is going to happen as US wants.

Now you may ask how does buying 200 jets result in this situation? The simple answer is we can't have a leg in each boat. Over time every action taken by the GOI that furthers the Indo-US song, drives another nail into the coffin of the Indo-Russian one.

i hope you are clear, that I am supporting the 100 jet fighter buy for the Navy. If we ever have to a leg someone else's boat, we do need to to atleast for some more time, it certainly shouldnt be the Russian boat. Russians are the one who is nailing the coffin of the Indo-Russian relationship. That is the hard truth.

Geo-politics is always evolving. Our Non-Alignment stance was hardly that. We still needed the Russians to help us. Why point fingers at anyone regarding the Russian – Chinese dilly dallying?
Vajpayee signed a strategic pact with Putin in 2000. What has the UPA done to further our partnership with Russia? The FGFA was conceptualized a decade ago and we were in talks then, no points to the UPA there either.
The Russian Chinese alliance is based on a simple fact that Russia has raw materials and China needs them. The Russians are a technology supplier because they get paid for it. There is nothing more to the Russian Chinese alliance than an economic one.

You are wrong in that trackwhack, the biggest reason of Russian-Chinese alliance is USA. We have done much with Russians, but lets very honest, they are now just hot air when it comes to us. Russia is treating us quite badly, I sometimes feel it is at the behest of the Chinese. India has done much for Russia in the past 20 years, Su-30MKI buy was done specifically by India to save Sukhoi at the call of Yelstien.

So, yes, buying the F 35 from the US will do irreparable damage to Indo-Russian ties. My personal opinion is we cannot afford that.
Thank you for reading through my long response.

Too bad if it does, because India should never have any relationship on which it has no leverage. F-35 is not going to destroy Indo-Russian ties, just like the MMRCA didnt.

 

[ace009]

Also, which school of economics taught you that a Bangalorean earning a lac a month is equivalent to an American earnining $18,000 K in 3-4 months?

I live here sir, with $4500 USD a month, its a pretty ordinary life, nothing special.
I've lived in Bangalore too, at Rs 1 lac a month, its a bloody decent life.


Now this takes the cake
By the way, that one tablet of Plan B or iPill you are comparing, has NOTHING to do with PPP. It's to do with pricing strategy. In India pricing is fixed by government or is cost-based pricing due to low purchasing power of the masses. In the USA most pricing is "market based" - i.e. what the market (consumers) is willing to pay. This actually points out that Indian consumers are willing to pay MUCH less for a reproductive pill than the average US consumer. Where does PPP come in here?

Cipla, a multinational, sells the rights to Piramal, a completely private, listed company whcih sells the pill at Rs 100. And you argument is that the government set that price?? Are you even listening to yourself? Whats your next argument? That Plan B has a better hit ratio at doing its job?

So, let's see - the American Civic is a plastic piece of crap and the Indian Honda Civic is an AWESOME car? Really? You have driven both and that is your take? You poor poor sap - you don;t even know that American automobile regulations make US cars one of the safest vehicles in the world and a car like tata Nano (which sells in India by the way) will never sell in the USA. The Honda Civic in the USA is low cost because it is made in the USA or imported from countries with weaker economies (read Mexico).
As for the Honda Civic in India - it is nowhere in the league of a real "Civic" and I have driven the Civic in 4 countries in 3 continents - so don't give me your crap.

The reason you lead a "bloody decent life" in Bangalore is because Bangalore is not the most expensive city in India, but New York (especially Manhattan) is the most bloody expensive city in the USA - also in Bangalore you can get cheap apartments, can hire cheap maids because they are available, have subsidized fuel and healthcare, shitty public transport and communications (yes - like it or not, cell phone services in India are shitty). I have lived in Bangalore and New York and don;t tell me what is what. The lifestyle in Bangalore is way better than most places in India, but nowhere comparable to New York, unless you are too cheap to live well.
As for Cipla and the pill - here's the deal - the ipill is targeted towards INDIAN CONSUMERS - who would never buy a pill at $10 forget at $45. So, they have priced it accordingly. Actually the ipill is sold for $20 by cipla in the USA (called Nextime). Again it has NOTHING to do with India's GDP-PPP or personal income PPP.

You have no idea about what you are talking about - and are mouthing off from what you have heard from conversations with others. The PPP is never a good measure of a countries economy - especially when it is trying to buy/ "acquire" technology.
As for you piece of gem that only about 0.5% of our GDP is spent on "acquiring" technology - it does not matter what that number is - it will be the absolute collar terms that is important - and by Indian GDP standards it will be the "real GDP" that will matter. If you are still too thick to understand that, go take Economics 101 at Columbia.

 

[trackwhack]

So, let's see - the American Civic is a plastic piece of crap and the Indian Honda Civic is an AWESOME car? Really? You have driven both and that is your take? You poor poor sap - you don;t even know that American automobile regulations make US cars one of the safest vehicles in the world and a car like tata Nano (which sells in India by the way) will never sell in the USA. The Honda Civic in the USA is low cost because it is made in the USA or imported from countries with weaker economies (read Mexico).
As for the Honda Civic in India - it is nowhere in the league of a real "Civic" and I have driven the Civic in 4 countries in 3 continents - so don't give me your crap.

The reason you lead a "bloody decent life" in Bangalore is because Bangalore is not the most expensive city in India, but New York (especially Manhattan) is the most bloody expensive city in the USA - also in Bangalore you can get cheap apartments, can hire cheap maids because they are available, have subsidized fuel and healthcare, shitty public transport and communications (yes - like it or not, cell phone services in India are shitty). I have lived in Bangalore and New York and don;t tell me what is what. The lifestyle in Bangalore is way better than most places in India, but nowhere comparable to New York, unless you are too cheap to live well.
As for Cipla and the pill - here's the deal - the ipill is targeted towards INDIAN CONSUMERS - who would never buy a pill at $10 forget at $45. So, they have priced it accordingly. Actually the ipill is sold for $20 by cipla in the USA (called Nextime). Again it has NOTHING to do with India's GDP-PPP or personal income PPP.

You have no idea about what you are talking about - and are mouthing off from what you have heard from conversations with others. The PPP is never a good measure of a countries economy - especially when it is trying to buy/ "acquire" technology.
As for you piece of gem that only about 0.5% of our GDP is spent on "acquiring" technology - it does not matter what that number is - it will be the absolute collar terms that is important - and by Indian GDP standards it will be the "real GDP" that will matter. If you are still too thick to understand that, go take Economics 101 at Columbia.

Dude, I'm done with you. Open the spec sheet of Honda India, open the spec sheet of Honda US. Compare the specs of the 18 K USD Honda Civic DX to that of the base model Indian Civic.

If you're not interested in facts, I give up. I did not even bother going past the first line of your response. Make an effort to write down a factual post.

 

[ace009]

Dude, I'm done with you. Open the spec sheet of Honda India, open the spec sheet of Honda US. Compare the specs of the 18 K USD Honda Civic DX to that of the base model Indian Civic.

If you're not interested in facts, I give up. I did not even bother going past the first line of your response. Make an effort to write down a factual post.

Try this - read it and tell me what you understand about PPP...
View attachment PPP Nguyen.pdf

And try this and tell me where you think that the $18K Honda civic in USA is inferior to the 12 Lakh Rupees Honda Civic in India - the SPECS as you said ....

View attachment Honda Civic compare.pdf