India, With or Without British Empire??

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lemontree

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pankaj nema;414570 [QUOTE said:
By DE VALUING the Achievements of Marathas and calling it as a an INSURGENCY shows your BIAS
against the Marathas
Now you are confirming that you are a moron.
We study history in the army, and when we are taught, we are taught with military terminology, we do not cloud our teaching with hyperbole as is done in our western neighbourhood.

You are clearly in AWE of the Mughals and more specifically Aurangzeb
Just giving you cold facts. If you redicule your enemy then you are bound to face defeat.

But try as you may ; the importance of Marathas in MAINTAINING and protecting the Hindu-ness OF India against
an oppressive ISALMIST regime who was out to Islamise India CAN NEVER BE DENIED
It was the Sikhs who protected the hindus and their way of life by the scarifice of their gurus.
The Marathas too faught for their freedom and way of life.
 

johnee

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I did not understand your post, especially the bolded and italicised parts.

If the building materials were no strong and the structures were small how come they be mature ?

Yeah one thing I have noticed, most of the North Indian temples I have gone to are small, simple (in the sense less intricate,colorful), built of marble than their south Indian cousins which are huge,colorful and built of stone.
Vast and grand temples (particularly in North India) seem to have been razed by Islamic invaders. Perhaps, the reason for simplicity and smaller size of the temples in North India was to not attract attention of Islamic rulers. Also, rebuilding a temple would require some sort of royal assistance which seems to be lacking in North India for a long time unlike in South India where certain Hindu Kings came into prominence. So, in South India, many temples were rebuilt or repaired to keep them intact. Shivaji, Krishna Deva Raya, ...etc played a crucial rule in those field.

PS: IMHO
 

pankaj nema

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We study history in the army, and when we are taught, we are taught with military terminology, we do not cloud our teaching with hyperbole as is done in our western neighbourhood.
So history TOO is distorted in the army ( along with Date of Births , Never Mind )

Does Each regiment have its own historians and history books OR is there a centralised system from
Army HQs

As per your statement it appears that the History that you are taught is COLOURED with views
of the panel who writes these books

Maybe there were ZERO Marathas in the panel who were writing these army History books
 
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pankaj nema

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It was the Sikhs who protected the hindus and their way of life by the scarifice of their gurus.
The Marathas too faught for their freedom and way of life.
The Sikhs Rajputs Jats were ALL beneficiaries of the Maratha Struggle

Since you are MILITARY professional you must know the role of TERRAIN in war

The Flat and open terrain of North India was the main reason why small Hindu armies without cannons
were steamrolled by the very large Mughal armies equippped with hundred of cannons
in the plains of North India

Once Mughal empire broke up Rajputs SIkhs Jats gained independence

Marathas made the best use of the hilly terrain in Deccan and Mughal armies were just lost in the forests and hills
 

pankaj nema

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It was the Sikhs who protected the hindus and their way of life by the scarifice of their gurus.
The Marathas too faught for their freedom and way of life.
The very fact that Marathas were the PRIME enemies of Mughals and biggest danger to their supremacy
FORCED Aurangzeb to SPEND 27 years in Deccan CONTINOUSLY in order to annihilate them
ie from 1680 to 1707

If sikhs would have been a bigger threat to Mughals then he would have focussed on them first
 

Ray

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The Maratha Empire waged war for 27 years with the Mughals from 1681 to 1707, which became the longest war in the history of India. The Marathas eventually emerged victorious.

While Venkoji, the younger half-brother of Shivaji, founded the Thanjavur Maratha kingdom.

Shahu, a grandson of Shivaji became ruler. During this period, he appointed Peshwas as the prime ministers of the Maratha Empire. After the death of Mughal Emperor Aurangzeb, the empire expanded greatly under the rule of the Peshwas. The empire at its peak stretched from Tamil Nadu in the south, to Peshawar[ (modern-day Pakistan) on the Afghanistan border in the north and led Expeditions to Bengal in the east. Ahmad Shah Abdali, amongst others, were unwilling to allow the Maratha's gains to go unchecked. In 1761, the Maratha army lost the Third Battle of Panipat which halted imperial expansion.

After 1761, young Madhavrao Peshwa reinstated the Maratha authority over North India, 10 years after the battle of Panipat. In a bid to effectively manage the large empire, semi-autonomy was given to strongest of the knights, which created a confederacy of Maratha states. They became known as Gaekwads of Baroda, the Holkars of Indore and Malwa, the Shindes of Gwalior and Ujjain, Bhonsales of Nagpur. In 1775, the British East India Company intervened in a succession struggle in Pune, which became the First Anglo-Maratha War. Marathas remained the preeminent power in India until their defeat in the Second and Third Anglo-Maratha Wars (1805–1818), which left Britain in control of most of India.

A large portion of the empire was coastline that had been secured by a potent navy under commanders such as Kanhoji Angre. He was very successful at keeping foreign naval ships, particularly of the Portuguese and British, at bay. Securing the coastal areas and building land-based fortifications were crucial aspects of the Maratha's defensive strategy and regional military history.

Maratha Empire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

Ray

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India has, since times immemorial, been victim of three types of invaders from the northwest. One type were the early invaders who came to this country to make it their abode or made it their home once they were secure in their new possessions. They defeated and drove away the original inhabitants only to settle down in their place. This marked the beginning of their undoings and their eventual absorption into the life of the land. They influenced and got influenced, and once a working synthesis was achieved they merged themselves into that vast stream of religions and cultures called Hinduism. Such were the Aryans who are said to have come to India in 2000 B.C., and the Parthians, the Scythians, the Huns, the Gurjars and various other tribes who invaded India between 500 B.C. and A.D. 500.

The second type of invaders were the robber-kings who had little territorial or political objectives in India and marched upon this country primarily for the sake of plunder. They came with enormous hordes of hungry tribesmen, lured to their standards by the prospects of plunder, and carried sword and fire to every place they visited. They fought and defeated the Indian Kings, burnt and plundered the towns and villages, sacked and slew the local population, and went back with enormous booty of gold and grain, gems and girls. They swept the capitals bare of their wealth, took away the crowns, and whilst returning restored the empty throne to its previous occupant or bestowed it upon their slaves to rule if they could. However, quite often they showed little concern as to who ruled after them and how. The more notorious among them were Mahmud Gazni and Mohammed Ghori who invaded India in the eleventh century, and Nadir Shah and Ahmad Shah Abdali who came in the eighteenth century.

The third type of invaders were the military commanders who came to this country to occupy it and to rule over it. They also plundered as they conquered but this, they considered, a part of warfare. They defeated and dethroned the native Kings and set themselves up as new monarchs. Many of them were great empire builders and followed a systematic policy of expansion. They squeezed the people and invested the resources of this country in raising mercenary forces with which they conquered more territories and subjugated more people. They invested as they earned, and expanded as they invested. Their armies were the source of their treasury and their treasury was the source of their military might. Together, these two generated the power with which they forcibly maintained themselves over the people until they were ousted by a more powerful contender. Such were the men who created the Slave, the Khilji, the Tughlak, the Lodhi and the Mughal Empires in India.

Although the Sikh records do not speak of any such historical interpretation in clear terms, the two different strategies formulated by the Sikh guerilla leaders in their struggle against the Mughals and Ahmad Shah Abdali do show that they were conscious of this interpretation and fully realised as to what type of invaders their two enemies were. As there was considerable difference between the character and composition of the Mughal and Afghan armies, and as they were pursuing two different objectives, the Sikhs were obliged to formulate two different strategies which we propose to discuss in sufficient detail in the following pages.

STRATEGY AGAINST THE MUGHALS

The Mughals, as has been said earlier, were imperialist-expansionist type of invaders who had continuously been expanding their empire in India during the past 200 years through squeezing the people and investing their revenues in raising mercenary forces. The real strength of the Mughal empire lay not in its army but in the vast resources of Hindustan. The Sikhs seem to have realised this. They, accordingly, devised such a strategy as aimed at denying them these resources. To begin with, the Sikhs persuaded the peasants to withhold payment of land revenue to the Mughals. Where persuasion failed, as it failed more often than it succeeded in initial stages, they resorted to calculated terrorism in the countryside. They raided the villages and plundered the landlords, the moneylenders, the revenue officers and the hostile Peasantry, Conse quently the land revenue collection went down. Rattan Singh, whose Panth Parkash is based on contemporary oral evidence, has thus summed up the military implications of this economic warfare of the Sikhs: "Land revenue the Mughals could collect none as the peasants refused to pay any on the ground that they had already been robbed of their produce by the Sikhs. The Mughals, as they could not collect enough taxes, had little money to pay to their soldiers who consequently deserted them. And tell me if anyone can collect revenue from the peasants without being able to enforce recovery?"1 None could, not at least in those days.

The Sikhs also infested the trade-routes and plundered the merchants on the move. They frequently raided the Sarais or the inns and the ferry sites. Within a few years they were thus able to close the highways to trade and traffic. Merchants avoided the Panjab plains and preferred to take their goods through the hill states of Jammu and Kangra. This resulted in sizeable loss of income to the state from customs and transit duties. The third target of the Sikhs were the escorts carrying state revenues from the parganahs or the revenue estates to the districts and thence to Lahore and Delhi. They ambushed the escorts, raided their camping sites and plundered them in everyway. Thus they strove to block the flow of wealth to the capital, a centre where it generated power. This economic warfare waged by the Sikhs had far-reaching political and military implications. The Mughal economic system, primitive as it was, was not capable of bearing the burden of a disruptionist war of attrition. Consequently, it broke down under strain, and with it collapsed the Mansabdari and Jagirdari systems which were the backbone of the Mughal military system. These barons, the Mansabdars and the Jagirdars, when they failed to collect the revenues assigned to them, also failed to raise and furnish stipulated contingents for the royal army.

The Sikhs further combined their economic strategy with the political and evolved a system of taking control of the population through the Rakhi system. Those were the days when confusion and anarchy reigned in the Panjab. There was virtually no government and the law of the jungle prevailed. People had become an easy prey to anyone who chose to oppress them. The common man lived in constant dread of the invading hordes of the Afghan robber-soldiers, the professional robbers, the Sikhs, and worse-than-robber type of revenue collectors. "Revenue administration there was none; the cultivator followed the plough with a sword in his hand, the Collector came at the head of a regiment, and if he fared well, another soon followed him to pick up the crumbs." "Society lived in a sort of trustless truce broken from time to time by treacherous murders and thievish forays." In such times the Sikhs offered to protect the people on payment of a nominal 'protection fee', the Rakhi. In return they were not only to refrain themselves; they were also to restrain others and to protect the people from all types of marauders. In the areas thus brought under the Rakhis system raids were prevented, disputes settled and justice (rough and ready) meted out. In this way the Sikhs took over all the police functions of the state, and these were the only functions of the state in those days. Thus the people get relief and respite and the Sikhs got an opportunity to prove that they meant to rule. Politically, the Rakhi system made them saviours of the people; economically it assured them of regular legal income; and militarily, it put their organisation on sound footing. In terms of guerilla strategy, it meant an onslaught on the stable image of the Mughal empire and the staying power of the Afghan occupation forces.

In terms of pure military strategy, the Sikhs made the mercenary spirit of the Mughal soldiers, their principal target. The so-called Mughal army of the Panjab Governors of those days was mainly composed of the Irani, Turani and other Central Asian mercenaries. Individually though, these soldiers were brave and reckless, their weakness lay in their mercenary spirit and their lack of loyalty to their Prince and the country of their employer. They had no direct stake in the ontcome of the battle and consequently had little interest in serious fighting.

They frequently changed sides and often made off on the slightest pretext of reverse. Even in the midst of an offensive they were actually on the defensive because they were always keen to save their horses, the loss of which ruined them irretrievably: If they lost their animal they also lost the trooper's extra allowance. The Sikhs were different. Soldiering was not their livelihood. It was a political necessity and a religious duty for them. The Sikhs believed in a war of mutual extermination; for them capitulation was ruled out. They were thus able to turn the contest of arms into a clash of wills, and such was their success that "fifty of them were enough to keep at bay the whole battalion of the King's forces".

STRATEGY AGAINST AHMAD SHAH ABDALI

Ahmad Shah Abdali, except that he wanted to annex the Panjab to his Afghan empire, had little political ambitions in India. After his fourth invasion (1756-1757), when the Mughal empire lay prostrate at his feet, he made no effort to capture it even though Shatba (the prayer for the new King) was read in his name. He merely plundered in and around Delhi and while returning, he restored the throne to the vanquished Mughal Emperor, Ahmad Shah. Even in the Panjab he tried to establish his direct rule only once (May 1757-April 1758) and frequently plundered it although it was his province ever since 1752. To Ahmad Shah war did not mean an extension of politics; it meant, at best, a means of extortion through politics. And, to his Baluch-Afghan hordes, it simply meant an organised plunder, a trade by arms. The main objective of the repeated invasions of Ahmad Shah Abdali was to plunder the wealth of India and to carry it to Afghanistan. It was so apparent from his conduct that every Panjabi understood it, as is clear from their common saying: Those born in Kabul are our regular guests.

The Sikhs, although they were not the first people to understand the true object of the repeated invasions of Ahmad Shahs were certainly the only ones who decided to frustrate it. Their technique was simple: they robbed the robber. Initially they concentrated on plundering raids involving little fighting and subsequently, they combined serious fighting with plundering. They hung loosely around the Afghan army making use of every opportunity of plunder that fell in their way. Whenever it suited them to take the part of assailants, they fell upon the Afghan baggage train and on their convoys relieving the Afghans of much of their booty. Further, they hovered round the Afghan camp cutting off stragglers and intercepting supplies. They also ambushed the foraging parties and plundering detachments which ventured to go away from the main Afghan force. As their strength increased, their raids grew both in frequency and ferocity. They made frontal attacks on the Afghan vanguard and towards the close of their struggle they did not spare even the main Afghan force. The Sikhs thus frequently aimed their blow at the robber instinct of the Afghan soldiers and hit his mind and morale through his belly. Over a period of time the Sikhs were thus able to convince the Afghans that while it was easy to plunder in India, it was difficult and risky to convey the booty through the Panjab. This way, they made the Afghan trade by arms unprofitable. The diminished chances of plunder were one of the reasons of desertions in the Afghan army during the last invasion of Ahmad Shah Abdali.

The military strategy of the Sikhs was elusive-offensive in nature and aggressive in content. They always strove to retain initiative, and this was necessary. Ahmad Shah Abdali, unlike the Mughals, fought a highly mobile and aggressive type of war. Against an enemy on the defensive there was nothing that could stand between him and the victory. The Sikhs had known it all along and further learnt it at their own cost in the holocaust of 1762, though they were then entrapped much against their wishes. Consequently, they never permitted themselves to be manouvered into a pitched battle of sufficiently long duration, not even till the end. They would only offer him a battle when Abdali was not in a position to accept it, either due to the urgency of returning home or because his soldiers were already exhausted. Defensively, the plan best adopted by them was to offer nothing tangible to the enemy to attack. They never tried to impede the advance of Ahmad Shah except on few occasions in which they suffered heavy losses. They appeared where he was not, threatening his base camp or the advance guard, and disappeared as soon as the main Afghan force arrived on the scene. This way they exhausted and demoralised the Afghan soldiers and then, as usual, confronted them with battle when they were eager to return home. Although the Sikhs could never achieve a decisive victory over Ahmad Shah in this manner, but ultimately he lost. "Guerrillas never win wars but their adversaries often lose them."6

TACTICS AND COMBAT METHOD

The tactics of the Sikhs were not static and were usually worked out by the men on the spot. Rattan Singh whose account is based on contemporary oral evidence, was told by a former veteran that one basic tactic of the Sikhs was: "Hit the enemy hard enough to kill, run, turn back and hit him again; run again, hit and run till you exasperate the enemy, and then, melt away." 7 Their entire theory of war is summed up in the word Dhai Phat or two and a half injuries. They considered approach, and all that goes into the making of it when element of surprise is to be secured, as one secret of success. This they called one Phat or injury and regarded it 40 per cent of their battle activity. The half Phat was the sudden swift Shock action which put the enemy off his balance. Then they suddenly withdrew before the enemy could strike back and disappeared to where he could not chase them. They considered speedy and orderly withdrawal to be the second secret of success or the other complete Phat.8 Qazi Nur Mohammed who fought against the Sikhs, sums up their science of war as follows: To face the enemy like a hero and then to get safely out of action.9

They practised all types of harassing tactics such as ambush, dusk and dawn raids, but their favourite was to lead the enemy into baited traps. Unable to destroy the whole Afghan force and unwilling to let it remain intact, they devised a method of killing it bit by bit. With this object in view they would lure a section of the enemy to clsase them, and when it was cut off from the main force they would wheel round and encircle it. When facing the main Afghan force, a party of them would gallop forward and come to a sudden stop to discharge its muskets. Then they would wheel round making room for the others, and thus they kept up uninterrupted fire and smashed the enemy lines. Forster says that their mode of attack was different from that of any other cavalry in Asia.10. In those days when retreat meant rout and dispersal meant defeat, the Sikhs successfully dispersed to operate and returned to renew the attack. These were entirely new elements which the Sikhs introduced in the north Indian warfare of the period under review

Sikh War Tactics and Strategy
 

lemontree

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So history TOO is distorted in the army ( along with Date of Births , Never Mind )

Does Each regiment have its own historians and history books OR is there a centralised system from
Army HQs

As per your statement it appears that the History that you are taught is COLOURED with views
of the panel who writes these books

Maybe there were ZERO Marathas in the panel who were writing these army History books
Now you are completely frustrated....signs of a complete moron with indications of paranoia

Since you have slithered down to the level of a gutter snipe, you are in no position to debate.
Have a nice day.
 

Iamanidiot

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The Marathas were considered plain thugs in the South.The Nayaks and the local population hated them for the Pillage and loot they used to do using their auxillaries the Pindaris.They loot the sringeri math and the Govindarajullu swamy Temple at Tirupathi .It took the upmost efforts of the Nayaks of Tirumala to keep the temple from Pindaris.This is the reason why the RSS and anything remotely associated with Chitpavan Brahmins are considered Taboo in Tirupathi and the whole of South Indian temples.This image about Marathas and Marathis hasn't changed till date
 

hit&run

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I admit I haven't read any of the posts in this thread and am just plunging in to this thread to say my personal opinion.

Title of the thread itself explains that Indians still suffer from Stockholm syndrome.

British intervention, thuggery and pillage was (in simple word) an act of war against each and every Indian state.

When they left, their Suzerainty over more than 500 state wasn't handed over to Union of India lead by congress I automatically.

The infrastructure they built was paid by Indian tax payer's money. Their engineers were paid well by Indians. If one look at the old accounts ledgers placed somewhere in a state Library in Kolkata of East India Company one will find that within few years they started earning in millions and then in billions from India only.

What could have been the fate of India without British mutants is just a hypothetical question. Countries like Japan are good example of ultra-modern nation grown great to date without such illegal foreign mercy.

If anyone doubts the statesmanship of statesmen of individual states of India who since time imemorable were having trade and diplomatic relationships with nations far away at all the known corners of this planet then I would ask him not to doubt.

These invaders who are still doing such illegal invasions, did not had the right to invade India at that time, irrespective how we were fighting with each other or militarily little behind from them. Indians could have caught or matched their capabilities with any contemporary better state, by trading the technology, like we are doing today.

They called themselves civilized but they did every illegal act against India and Indians for their self-greed.

The time has come to treat this Stockholm Syndrome, stop discussing these deceptive, thrust upon us titles by clever minds who have successfully fooled us into such discussions were at the end of the day we declare ourselves hopeless breed who couldn't have done better without those invaders.

Indians should discuss about their unwanted, not required, illegal invasion of India by placing them behind railings where criminals stand in a court room not placing themselves at the same place; to start with.

It's a humiliation of every Indian living or dead to think that we couldn't have done better without them. Even if India couldn't have been united like we are today the Indianess still would have been in existence till today. Indianness is not a state but culture (Sanskriti)

Most importantly the concept of United India was not alien to us, the great Indians like Chander Gupt Maurya had ruled over a United India. The same concept could have been again put on practise and test by another great Indian at whim, at any time of our choice and need (for India by Indians), without that idea allegedly being dictated directly/indirectly told or served to us by any motherf##*er Lundoner.
 
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pankaj nema

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It was the Sikhs who protected the hindus and their way of life by the scarifice of their gurus.
Sikhs protected Hindus in the greater Punjab which was their sphere of influence
ie in GEOGRAPHICAL terms Hindus of around 2 LAKH square KM were under SIKH PROTECTION

Now COMPARE this with the area defended by the Marathas

Marathas were INSTRUMENTAL in saving the Southern and Western India from Islamist Hordes
Aurangzeb attacked DECCAN to not only wipe out Marathas
but ALSO spread Islam and Islamise the whole of peninsular India

Marathas stood like a wall between Aurangzeb AND PENINSULAR India
 

Ray

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Marathas were INSTRUMENTAL in saving the Southern and Western India from Islamist Hordes
It is not Islamic hordes, but Mughal hordes, if you will!
 

pankaj nema

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The Marathas were considered plain thugs in the South.The Nayaks and the local population hated them for the Pillage and loot they used to do using their auxillaries the Pindaris.They loot the sringeri math and the Govindarajullu swamy Temple at Tirupathi .It took the upmost efforts of the Nayaks of Tirumala to keep the temple from Pindaris.This is the reason why the RSS and anything remotely associated with Chitpavan Brahmins are considered Taboo in Tirupathi and the whole of South Indian temples.This image about Marathas and Marathis hasn't changed till date
Those were desperate times for the marathas and Hindus in Peninsular India

They were fighting for the very survival of Hinduism

What would have happened if Marathas TOO would have CAPITULATED against Aurangzeb

Aurangzeb COULD NOT be reasoned with or offered marriage alliances

He just wanted to finish off Hindus THAT IS IT

Those temples or maths that the Marathas looted ultimately went for WAR FIGHTING efforts against Aurangzeb

IF Marathas had CAPITULATED , the NOT only those temples would have been DEMOLISHED
and Mosques built on them but Millions of Hindus would also have been put to the sword
 

pankaj nema

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It is not Islamic hordes, but Mughal hordes, if you will!
Dear sir I have written ISLAMIST not Islamic Please check my post and your reply to my
post BOTH

I know the difference !!!

That is why I make extensive use of CAPITAL letters So that there is no confusion :rolleyes:
 

Ray

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Those were desperate times for the marathas and Hindus in Peninsular India

They were fighting for the very survival of Hinduism

What would have happened if Marathas TOO would have CAPITULATED against Aurangzeb

Aurangzeb COULD NOT be reasoned with or offered marriage alliances

He just wanted to finish off Hindus THAT IS IT

Those temples or maths that the Marathas looted ultimately went for WAR FIGHTING efforts against Aurangzeb

IF Marathas had CAPITULATED , the NOT only those temples would have been DEMOLISHED
and Mosques built on them but Millions of Hindus would also have been put to the sword
Good job done.

The Mughal swords could not bloody itself any further.

History cannot be changed.
 

Ray

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Dear sir I have written ISLAMIST not Islamic Please check my post and your reply to my
post BOTH

I know the difference !!!

That is why I make extensive use of CAPITAL letters So that there is no confusion :rolleyes:
So sorry.

Nonetheless, can we not tone down?

Playing the Devil's Advocate, I wonder the way you are at it, one does get a bit worried that you are only giving an impression that though our ancestors did a good job, they were nonetheless still chumps to have allowed the invaders to have a whale of a time!

In the final analysis, it only indicates that for sometime the ancestors held firm, but in the final analysis, they capitulated to someone or the other and our ancestors all got enslaved!

I am not being critical of our ancestors, but that is the impression that you are projecting.

We all have read history.

Things happened in those times for the good or the bad.

Judge the activities of the plusses and minuses of those time and not through hindsight.
 

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I agree on one point with Pankaj Nema on Marathas.

If Marathas didn't fought bravely and strongly against Mughlas specially Aurengzeb, Most part of South & West India would be under Islamic influence with high number of death and religious conversion. Muslims are only 4%-10% in these region even after centuries of population growth.

Most of the Temples of South India were not destroyed or looted unlike North because they failed to penetrate entry of central-west region. On other side, Mughals started facing trouble from Sikhs, Jats and Rajputs......and not to forget important part....Bhakti movement which started in late 15th century with sole aim to protect Dharmic religion.

Sikhs, Rajputs, Jats also played very important role but all were focused in North-West region.
 
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Ray

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The time has come to treat this Stockholm Syndrome, stop discussing these deceptive, thrust upon us titles by clever minds who have successfully fooled us into such discussions were at the end of the day we declare ourselves hopeless breed who couldn't have done better without those invaders.

Indians should discuss about their unwanted, not required, illegal invasion of India by placing them behind railings where criminals stand in a court room not placing themselves at the same place; to start with.
Good point.

I personally feel that it is nothing to crow about the fact that we finally succumbed inspite of great valour.

It appears they had forgotten all about Chanakya and his sagacious advice through his tomes.

Had they not forgotten history and its lessons, maybe we would not have been enslaved or befooled.

But then, what has happened, it cannot be undone, or can it?

I would look at history, the valour and injustice with a more pragmatic way - learn the lessons and NEVER LET IT HAPPEN AGAIN!

It is no good crying over spilt milk!

Next, If the invaders had been successful with their unwanted, not required, illegal invasion of India, then where were our forefathers to ensure that such unwanted and illegal invasions were not perpetuated upon?

If India could by place them behind railings where criminals stand in a court room not placing themselves at the same place, they why has India not done so? Maybe, we have not yet developed the international stature to demand so.

Heck! We cannot even get the Dow Chemicals to own up to the recent history of the mass murder Union Carbide, whose legatee they are, so what are we talking about?

We cannot even force UK to drop Dow Chemicals from sponsoring the London Olympics.

So, why this hollow rage?

India and Indians must put their money where their mouth is!

I am not for one moment not sharing your rage. It is just that, I know what is reality.
 
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Ray

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One should always remember this sagacious advice even if one is seething with anger at the injustices that been done and are now being done!

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.
 
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Ray

The Chairman
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Even when we look at history, including the injustices, perceived or real, that has been done, we must do so with a calm and emotionless analytical mind.

Bring in emotions and biases, the complete good work aimed to be projected gets lost as a motivated rant!
 
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