India to grow faster than China by 2012: Standard Chartered Bank

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It's the US-China Business trade council for god's sake....

First of all, you exaggerate. % change in Chinese exports and imports is -11% and -16% respectively. Secondly, the NET growth is positive, very positive. In a year of global economic hardship, those aren't that bad.
this is table 4 for exports to the world

Table 4: China's Trade with the World ($ billion)
Note: PRC exports reported on an free-on-board basis; imports on a cost, insurance, and freight basis
Sources: PRC National Bureau of Statistics and PRC General Administration of Customs, China's Customs Statistics
2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009
Exports 249.2 266.1 325.6 438.2 593.3 762.0 969.0 1,220.5 1,430.7 1,201.7
% change 27.8 6.8 22.4 34.6 35.4 28.4 27.2 26.0 17.3 -16.0
Imports 225.1 243.6 295.2 412.8 561.2 660.0 791.5 956.1 1,132.6 1,005.6
% change 35.8 8.2 21.2 39.8 36.0 17.6 19.9 20.8 18.5 -11.2
Total 474.3 509.7 620.8 851.0 1,154.6 1,421.9 1,760.4 2,176.6 2,563.3 2,207.2
% change 31.5 7.5 21.8 37.1 35.7 23.2 23.8 23.6 17.8 -13.9
Balance 24.1 22.5 30.4 25.5 32.1 102.0 177.5 264.3 298.1 196.1
 

Necrosis Factor

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this is table 4 for exports to the world

Table 4: China's Trade with the World ($ billion)
Note: PRC exports reported on an free-on-board basis; imports on a cost, insurance, and freight basis
Sources: PRC National Bureau of Statistics and PRC General Administration of Customs, China's Customs Statistics
2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009
Exports 249.2 266.1 325.6 438.2 593.3 762.0 969.0 1,220.5 1,430.7 1,201.7
% change 27.8 6.8 22.4 34.6 35.4 28.4 27.2 26.0 17.3 -16.0
Imports 225.1 243.6 295.2 412.8 561.2 660.0 791.5 956.1 1,132.6 1,005.6
% change 35.8 8.2 21.2 39.8 36.0 17.6 19.9 20.8 18.5 -11.2
Total 474.3 509.7 620.8 851.0 1,154.6 1,421.9 1,760.4 2,176.6 2,563.3 2,207.2
% change 31.5 7.5 21.8 37.1 35.7 23.2 23.8 23.6 17.8 -13.9
Balance 24.1 22.5 30.4 25.5 32.1 102.0 177.5 264.3 298.1 196.1
Yes, i don't see -20%. It's 16% and 11%
 

badguy2000

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You're missing the fact that everything has a saturation point, bud. Industries notwithstanding, people will still need food. You gotta have a balanced economy.
well,CHina's urbanizaiton rate is still 50%. the urbanizaiton rate of developed economy usually is 70-90%. CHina's urbanizaiton is far away from ""saturation point".
As long as urbanizaiton in CHina is not finished, China's economy can still keep high growth.

However, when urbanizition in China is finished, China will have already become a full developed economy and needn't high growth any more.
 

SHASH2K2

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well,CHina's urbanizaiton rate is still 50%. the urbanizaiton rate of developed economy usually is 70-90%. CHina's urbanizaiton is far away from ""saturation point".
As long as urbanizaiton in CHina is not finished, China's economy can still keep high growth.

However, when urbanizition in China is finished, China will have already become a full developed economy and needn't high growth any more.
BG when china is fighting with such a high inflation and housing is so costly and unaffordable there how can your plans of urbanization reach upto level of 90 - 100 % ?

check this . Chinese Housing Bubble: Are We Waiting for the Next Big Burst?


While the global economy suffers, China's housing juggernaut shows no signs of slowing. After the briefest of blips, residential transactions are back at a record level, up 80 percent this year alone. Prices, already having risen every year for more than a decade, are exploding in tandem, and speculators are shopping properties with the expectation that the market will continue to flourish.
Many observers, including those in the government, have voiced concerns that the boom could indicate a growing bubble that, if it were to burst, would seriously damage China's economy. Especially after the recent collapse of the U.S. housing market, which contributed to the worldwide economic recession, international concerns about China's housing market are not groundless.
However, the significant differences between the Chinese and American situations should relieve American apprehension of a Chinese housing bubble. A growing economy, continued urbanization, and a different banking system mean a housing bubble followed by a burst is less likely to occur in China. Furthermore, the Chinese government is already taking steps to prevent the collapse of its housing market.
One report that led to fear of a Chinese housing bubble showed that housing price hikes have outpaced increases in income. According to this report, the cost of one square meter is equal to an average resident's salary of seven months. But this report is not entirely accurate; in reality, the report underestimates people's actual incomes, which are grossly underreported in China. China's tax report system explains why. While U.S. citizens report their income individually to the Internal Revenue Service, Chinese companies report and pay income taxes for individual employees. As a result, Chinese companies illegally report lower salaries in order to decrease the amount of taxes they must pay. Because of this trend, the difference between the rise in housing prices and income is not nearly as significant as reported.
The Chinese financial market is also fundamentally different from the U.S. market. To qualify for a residential loan in China, consumers are required to put down a large down payment: 30 percent for the buyers' first home and 50 percent for additional properties. Therefore, Chinese buyers don't exhibit the reckless behavior that was rampant, even encouraged, in the United States prior to the collapse of the financial system. Furthermore, the Chinese banking system does not suffer from extreme securitization of mortgages by financial institutions. Original lenders generally hold mortgages in China. Considering it was also excessive leverage, not high prices, that caused the real estate meltdown in the U.S., there is still room for optimism on this front.
Another difference between the current situation in China and the conditions leading to the U.S. bubble is demand. Urbanization in China is growing, suggesting that even if speculative buying slows, demand for housing will remain high. According to the State Council, as many as 400 million people will move to cities by 2035. The Chinese government has expressed its intent to ensure these migrants access to affordable housing. Thus, a collapse is not likely in a housing market experiencing steady demand and matching supply.
Nevertheless, given that traditional savings accounts yield less than 1 percent interest annually and playing the stock market is perceived as high-risk gambling in China, real estate remains very enticing for speculators and investors, signaling the need to be vigilant about a possible housing bubble. With a clear understanding of this behavior, the Chinese government has demonstrated a willingness to intervene early to prevent a collapse.
Last November, Beijing introduced a new real estate sales tax aimed at cooling the property market fever. Designed to discourage the "flipping" of houses by speculators, this nationwide tax policy instituted a sales tax of 5.5 percent to anyone selling a second apartment within five years of its purchase. Further policies are on the way. The State Council issued a statement on April 15th laying out specific measures to further curb exorbitant housing prices. The details included raising mortgage rates and down payment requirements, and allowing banks to refuse credit to buyers who the banks believe to be speculating.
Although the Chinese government was right to take preliminary steps to control housing prices, immediately after it outlined its intervention plan, worries over the measures dampened the stock market. The announcement led to a drop in Hong Kong's property index, and the Hang Seng Property Index dropped to a three-week low. Critics worry that the tightening of credit would not only cool down the overheated market, but could cause it to freeze. These fears are unfounded for now; the HSNP soon bounced back, albeit to a lower level, and credit remained available, exactly what the government wanted. Drastic policies, however, could create a damaging credit crunch.
Beyond these changes, China has even more tools in reserve to prevent the boom from becoming a bubble. The introduction of property tax and the revaluation of its currency could help make China's housing market sustainable. In the absence of property taxes, the costs of holding empty homes is very low, which provides a great incentive to speculators in buying real estate for investment purposes. Beijing's hesitation to levy the property tax largely stems from local governments' reliance on property sales as their major source of revenue. It makes little sense to the government officials to reduce their income by keeping down the property prices in normal times. If things get out of hand, however, a property tax could keep them in control. Also, in order to keep its currency artificially devalued, China's central bank has to spend billions of dollars buying U.S. Treasury bills, which significantly hinders its ability to use monetary policy to quell rising prices. Revaluation would put strains on China's export industries, by raising the prices of Chinese goods, but would more than compensate by stabilizing the overall economy.
Given the grave dangers posed by a collapsed housing market, the signs of China's growing bubble certainly call for vigilance and international attention. However, the evidence suggests that panic is not yet in order; China's unique housing dynamics and its government's quick policy responses are happily keeping the boom under wraps.
 

badguy2000

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BG when china is fighting with such a high inflation and housing is so costly and unaffordable there how can your plans of urbanization reach upto level of 90 - 100 % ?

check this . Chinese Housing Bubble: Are We Waiting for the Next Big Burst?


While the global economy suffers, China's housing juggernaut shows no signs of slowing. After the briefest of blips, residential transactions are back at a record level, up 80 percent this year alone. Prices, already having risen every year for more than a decade, are exploding in tandem, and speculators are shopping properties with the expectation that the market will continue to flourish.
Many observers, including those in the government, have voiced concerns that the boom could indicate a growing bubble that, if it were to burst, would seriously damage China's economy. Especially after the recent collapse of the U.S. housing market, which contributed to the worldwide economic recession, international concerns about China's housing market are not groundless.
However, the significant differences between the Chinese and American situations should relieve American apprehension of a Chinese housing bubble. A growing economy, continued urbanization, and a different banking system mean a housing bubble followed by a burst is less likely to occur in China. Furthermore, the Chinese government is already taking steps to prevent the collapse of its housing market.
One report that led to fear of a Chinese housing bubble showed that housing price hikes have outpaced increases in income. According to this report, the cost of one square meter is equal to an average resident's salary of seven months. But this report is not entirely accurate; in reality, the report underestimates people's actual incomes, which are grossly underreported in China. China's tax report system explains why. While U.S. citizens report their income individually to the Internal Revenue Service, Chinese companies report and pay income taxes for individual employees. As a result, Chinese companies illegally report lower salaries in order to decrease the amount of taxes they must pay. Because of this trend, the difference between the rise in housing prices and income is not nearly as significant as reported.
The Chinese financial market is also fundamentally different from the U.S. market. To qualify for a residential loan in China, consumers are required to put down a large down payment: 30 percent for the buyers' first home and 50 percent for additional properties. Therefore, Chinese buyers don't exhibit the reckless behavior that was rampant, even encouraged, in the United States prior to the collapse of the financial system. Furthermore, the Chinese banking system does not suffer from extreme securitization of mortgages by financial institutions. Original lenders generally hold mortgages in China. Considering it was also excessive leverage, not high prices, that caused the real estate meltdown in the U.S., there is still room for optimism on this front.
Another difference between the current situation in China and the conditions leading to the U.S. bubble is demand. Urbanization in China is growing, suggesting that even if speculative buying slows, demand for housing will remain high. According to the State Council, as many as 400 million people will move to cities by 2035. The Chinese government has expressed its intent to ensure these migrants access to affordable housing. Thus, a collapse is not likely in a housing market experiencing steady demand and matching supply.
Nevertheless, given that traditional savings accounts yield less than 1 percent interest annually and playing the stock market is perceived as high-risk gambling in China, real estate remains very enticing for speculators and investors, signaling the need to be vigilant about a possible housing bubble. With a clear understanding of this behavior, the Chinese government has demonstrated a willingness to intervene early to prevent a collapse.
Last November, Beijing introduced a new real estate sales tax aimed at cooling the property market fever. Designed to discourage the "flipping" of houses by speculators, this nationwide tax policy instituted a sales tax of 5.5 percent to anyone selling a second apartment within five years of its purchase. Further policies are on the way. The State Council issued a statement on April 15th laying out specific measures to further curb exorbitant housing prices. The details included raising mortgage rates and down payment requirements, and allowing banks to refuse credit to buyers who the banks believe to be speculating.
Although the Chinese government was right to take preliminary steps to control housing prices, immediately after it outlined its intervention plan, worries over the measures dampened the stock market. The announcement led to a drop in Hong Kong's property index, and the Hang Seng Property Index dropped to a three-week low. Critics worry that the tightening of credit would not only cool down the overheated market, but could cause it to freeze. These fears are unfounded for now; the HSNP soon bounced back, albeit to a lower level, and credit remained available, exactly what the government wanted. Drastic policies, however, could create a damaging credit crunch.
Beyond these changes, China has even more tools in reserve to prevent the boom from becoming a bubble. The introduction of property tax and the revaluation of its currency could help make China's housing market sustainable. In the absence of property taxes, the costs of holding empty homes is very low, which provides a great incentive to speculators in buying real estate for investment purposes. Beijing's hesitation to levy the property tax largely stems from local governments' reliance on property sales as their major source of revenue. It makes little sense to the government officials to reduce their income by keeping down the property prices in normal times. If things get out of hand, however, a property tax could keep them in control. Also, in order to keep its currency artificially devalued, China's central bank has to spend billions of dollars buying U.S. Treasury bills, which significantly hinders its ability to use monetary policy to quell rising prices. Revaluation would put strains on China's export industries, by raising the prices of Chinese goods, but would more than compensate by stabilizing the overall economy.
Given the grave dangers posed by a collapsed housing market, the signs of China's growing bubble certainly call for vigilance and international attention. However, the evidence suggests that panic is not yet in order; China's unique housing dynamics and its government's quick policy responses are happily keeping the boom under wraps.
you underesitimate the capacity of CCP.
 

badguy2000

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I am not undermining anyone . I just want you to give me an explanation about how china will over come this real estate bubble and hyper inflation ?
anyhow, CHina's GDP 2010 must be about 38-40 trillion RMB. If Exchange rate is about 6.5, Chinese nominal GDP would be about 6 trillion USD. So, India's GDP 2010 will be only 1/5 of CHina's.
 

SHASH2K2

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anyhow, CHina's GDP 2010 must be about 38-40 trillion RMB. If Exchange rate is about 6.5, Chinese nominal GDP would be about 6 trillion USD. So, India's GDP 2010 will be only 1/5 of CHina's.
Madam you are justifying my last statement . you just type garbage for sake of replying. 2010 is almost over as per my knowledge.
 

badguy2000

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Madam you are justifying my last statement . you just type garbage for sake of replying. 2010 is almost over as per my knowledge.
"house duties" would be the most effective way to cure "real estimate bubble" . Now, there is not "house duties" in china. so the cost of speculation of real estimate is quite low.

However, Once real estimate market were into deep depression, local governmental revenue would decrease much,because local finacial depends of revenue from real esitmate market tooo much.

So, CHinese government, espeically Chinese local government find it very hard to impose "house duties" now.
And, before "house duties" were imposed,, real estimate bubble is hard to cure in forseeable future in China. As a bank risk-superviser, I know it quite well.


as for inflation in CHina, I don't think inflation in CHina is bad. In fact, it is one of many options to correct the unbanlance of CHinese trade. that is ,"the devaluing of RMB's PPP " is as effective as "apprecation of RMB exchange rate".
 

SHASH2K2

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HONG KONG — China took steps Wednesday to control rising prices at the most basic consumer level. But Beijing faces a severe challenge in preventing higher global commodity prices from igniting broader inflation that could threaten China's streak of powerful economic growth.
With prices rising this autumn for many commodities like sugar and cotton, the country's cabinet announced on Wednesday evening that it would impose price controls on food, introduce subsidies for the needy and increase the availability of fuel supplies.

So far, the inflation in consumer goods in China has been largely confined to food and energy, and government policy makers want to keep it that way. But avoiding more general inflation could prove difficult.

And in terms of economic diplomacy, the measures announced Wednesday were almost precisely the opposite of the steps the Obama administration and many Western economists have been urging Beijing to take.

China's broadly measured money supply has surged in the last two years, soaring 54 percent as its central bank has supported the export economy by intervening in currency markets to keep the renminbi artificially low. Considerable cash is also sloshing around the Chinese economy because of two years of extremely heavy lending by state-owned banks to finance a highly successful economic stimulus program that has returned the country to double-digit growth.

But China's leaders are now clearly worried about the inflationary side effects of those financial policies. The premier, Wen Jiabao, has toured southern China over the last week and was shown on national television late Tuesday night expressing concern about rising food prices and promising that the government would take action.

Zhou Xiaochuan, the governor of the central bank, had said earlier on Tuesday that the amount of money racing through the global economy was putting pressure on emerging economies that want to control inflation. And Yao Jian, a commerce ministry spokesman, said at a press conference on Tuesday that the government would tighten scrutiny of foreign investment so as to prevent too much money from pouring into China as foreign investors seek higher returns than are currently available in the West.

Imposing price controls and other administrative controls on the Chinese economy runs counter to the steps recommended by many Western experts. They have suggested that China should further deregulate its economy, let the renminbi appreciate and otherwise rely on market forces to tame inflation.

The standard policy prescription from Washington has been that China should raise interest rates, as a way to slow investment and prevent the economy from overheating. And American policy makers from President Obama down have argued that if China would let the renminbi rise against the dollar, oil and other commodities would be less expensive in China, helping to tame inflation. But Beijing has resisted, in large part because Washington's prescribed medicine would reduce the price competitiveness of Chinese exports to the United States and elsewhere.

Still, even as China is zigging when Washington would rather it zag, some corporate economists are cautiously optimistic that China may be able to tame inflation with its approach — for now, at least.

"Given that food prices are spearheading immediate inflationary pressures, supply-side measures should be more effective than rate hikes," Qu Hongbin, the co-head of Asian economics research at the international bank HSBC, wrote in a research note on Wednesday night. "There's no need to panic, as Beijing has more than enough effective policy options to combat inflation."

And yet, while there may be limits to China's ability to keep a lid on inflation, it is better prepared than many countries to cope with rising world commodity prices. That is because China is self-sufficient in most foods, has an enormous trade surplus and has accumulated copious foreign reserves that reached $2.65 trillion at the end of September.

In contrast, the United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization warned on Wednesday that food import bills were up 10 percent this year for the world's poorest countries.

But many economists were surprised by the accelerated inflation in China that the National Bureau of Statistics disclosed in Beijing last week. Overall consumer prices were 4.4 percent higher last month than a year earlier.

Chinese leaders have repeatedly made clear over the years that fighting inflation is a top priority, because it could fuel social unrest. And they have publicly set a target of not allowing the annual increase in consumer prices to reach 5 percent again. It peaked at 8.5 percent in the spring of 2008.

If food and energy prices are removed from the consumer price index, the prices for everything else are up only 1.3 percent from a year earlier, according to the government. But that is not necessarily a reassuring measure, some economists suggest.

Chinese and Western economists worry that the Chinese price index may underestimate inflation separate from food and energy. The Chinese index has longstanding methodological problems — like measuring apartment rents but not the cost of buying and living in an apartment, which has soared in recent years.
While climbing food and energy prices are a global problem, they particularly affect lower-income countries like China, where such necessities claim a far larger share of household incomes than in more affluent nations. China's consumer price index, which is based mainly on urban spending patterns, assumes that groceries represent a third of a family's spending.
That is extremely high by Western standards. And it shows how far China must still go to create the kind of broad-based consumer society that American officials recommend and that Chinese leaders say they want to adopt in the long term in place of their current export-led model. In the United States, groceries represent only 8 percent of the Consumer Price Index.

The State Council, China's cabinet of ministers, decided on Wednesday that it would stabilize prices for grain, oil, sugar and cotton in particular, according to a statement on a government Web site. The State Council also said that the government would make sure that more diesel reached filling stations, to fuel trucks, and that utility power stations had ample supplies of coal.

The high prices and relative scarcity of diesel fuel have resulted in part from its use by factories, which have been burning it in backyard generators as power companies have cut back electricity generation to meet national targets for limiting energy consumption.

Meanwhile, utilities have struggled to buy enough coal because the government requires coal mines to sell it to power companies at low, regulated prices. The mines, of course, prefer to sell their coal at higher prices on the open market.

Last week, in another move against inflation, Beijing ordered commercial banks to put more of their assets in low-yield accounts at the central bank. The measure, an increase in the so-called reserve requirement, was meant to cool a frenzy of lending over the last two years that has priced urban real estate beyond the reach of most working-class families.

Liang Huoqiao, a 22-year-old plastics worker, said in an interview earlier this year in Guangzhou in southern China that his pay was rising 10 percent a year, to around $300 a month. But his entire annual pay would be enough to buy only about two square meters of an apartment, or 21.5 square feet.

So he planned to buy a car as soon as possible, and worry about a home later.
 

SHASH2K2

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One more sign of how bad situation in China is .


BEIJING (Reuters) – China ordered lenders on Friday to lock up more of their money with the central bank for the second time in two weeks, stepping up its battle to pull excess cash out of the economy before inflation has a chance to take off.

The People's Bank of China said that it would increase banks' required reserves by 50 basis points, its fifth such announcement this year. Including a temporary increase, the move takes required reserve ratios (RRR) to 18.5 percent for big banks, a record high.

The increase was intended "to strengthen liquidity management and appropriately control money and credit issuance," the central bank said in a statement on its website (www.pbc.gov.cn).

The move was not a surprise and, in fact, could be something of a relief for investors who had expected worse.

"It suggests China is intent to manage price pressures through withdrawing liquidity from the system," said Dongming Xie, China economist at OCBC Bank in Singapore. "However, it also suggests that China is being cautious about aggressive monetary tightening."

The central bank made the announcement after domestic markets had closed for the weekend.

The Australian dollar, which is sensitive to the strength of Chinese demand, fell briefly against the U.S. dollar.

European stocks extended losses on the China news as commodities stocks were pressured lower. Big miners Rio Tinto (RIO.L) and BHP Billiton (BLT.L) both fell more than 2 percent. Oil prices dipped below $82 a barrel.

Chinese stock markets have tumbled nearly 10 percent over the past six trading days on concerns that the government would ratchet up its monetary policy tightening after inflation sped to a 25-month high in October.

Such concerns were crystallized when China's cabinet vowed on Wednesday to take "forceful" measures, including price controls if necessary, to rein in inflation.

"This RRR hike will not reduce the chance of raising interest rates, and I expect the central bank will raise benchmark rates one more time within the year," said Lu Zhengwei, chief economist at Industrial Bank in Shanghai.

LOCKING UP CASH

China raised interest rates on Oct 19 -- the first time in nearly three years -- and most analysts still expect 2-4 more increases by the end of next year.

Increasing reserve requirements is a more direct approach to absorbing the excess liquidity that has been spurring Chinese inflation.

The 50 basis point RRR increase, which takes effect on November 29, should lock up about 350 billion yuan that banks could otherwise lend.

Along with playing a key role in the fight against inflation, policy tightening also signals the government's confidence that the world's second-largest economy is on solid ground, even as the United States and European recoveries remain fragile.

In addition to increasing required reserves and interest rates, China has also issued strict orders to banks to curtail their lending.

"China tightening reserve requirements is just part of the arsenal that they will use and we would expect to see more of these measures coming through," said Michael Lewis, global head of commodities research at Deutsche Bank in London.

"Our sense is that energy and industrial metals are most exposed to this sort of Chinese action because obviously it is going to raise people's concerns about the growth outlook," he added.

Chinese policy makers have blamed monetary easing in the United States for propelling cash toward emerging markets, fuelling commodity price rises and inflation risks.

But most of the excess cash that lies at the root of inflation in China has domestic origins. To power the economy through the global financial crisis, Beijing called on banks to lend more aggressively.

Banks responded by unleashing an unprecedented credit surge and the government has been slow to mop up the money still cascading over the economy.

Food prices have driven Chinese inflation. Accounting for about a third of the consumer price index, food costs rose 10.1 percent in the year to October, while non-food inflation crept up just 1.6 percent.

Overall consumer price inflation reached 4.4 percent in October from a year earlier and many analysts expect that the November figure could breach 5 percent. The government's target was to keep inflation at a full-year average of 3 percent, but that is increasingly looking in doubt.
 

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