India not our enemy

Discussion in 'Pakistan' started by qsaark, Sep 15, 2009.

  1. qsaark

    qsaark Regular Member

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    Monday, September 14, 2009

    Lt-Col Mukhtar Ahmed Butt in his letter of Sept 10 titled “Is India really our enemy?” seems to have distorted history and reproduced the official version. Such an approach only ends up satisfying our egos and achieves little else. Notwithstanding the logic of the division of India, in my view India was more prudent and realistic in accepting the new state of Pakistan. The hostilities commenced when we attacked Kashmir and it was divided, and even this hostile act of Pakistan was not responded militarily. After that we should have adopted a diplomatic approach to this issue and with certain political bargains could have settled it.

    In this timeframe General Ayub Khan imposed our first martial law and we started viewing policies through the barrel of a gun and this was the time Pakistan conceived and launched the 1965 hostilities. I will request the respected writer to study this episode within with special reference to military strategy. To date the nation is not aware of the logic and assumptions on which we infiltrated our special services troops into Kashmir. We then opened up hostilities in Kashmir and again I am at a loss to understand how we assumed that India would not cross the international border. The truth is that in 1965 Pakistan initiated war.

    We are also forgetting that as a state we actively supported jihad in Kashmir for almost ten years and in 1998 launched an ill-conceived operation in Kargil — something on which there has not been even an iota of introspection or analysis. The dismemberment of Pakistan too is our own doing because we never gave political or economic rights to East Pakistan and instead relied more on our military power and our perceived genetic inferiority of Bengalis. India did what it had to do — how could we have expected anything different given that we had attacked it twice?

    We need to learn that each country has its national interests and those are to be guarded and it is unfortunate that India has grown large economically, diplomatically and militarily. We are in her neighbourhood and we need to be more realistic when approaching India and in future only common interests can build bridges. I do not know why we surrender our sovereignty to the US and go running to Saudi Arabia — and when it comes to India we take refuge in our false pride.

    In inter-state relations there is no permanent enmity or friendship, nations follow their national objectives. The actual fact is that Pakistan and India are dependent on each other for economics, security and politics. We need to reconcile with Partition, find some honourable solution for Kashmir and move forward. Poverty, lack of good governance, violation of the constitution and inadequate national integration are our real enemies and any future harm to the state will come from these rather than India.

    Brig (r) Asif Alvi

    Karachi

    *****

    This is with reference to Lt-Col (r) M A Butt’s letter titled “Is India really our enemy?” (Sept 10) which was in response to a letter, of the same title, by Malik Mohsin Nisar (Sept 8). The young generation is quite aware of the sacrifices given for the creation of Pakistan. It is also aware of ‘the failed generation’ that our elders have been. They were unable to make Pakistan what it should have been and dragged the country into unwanted wars, to the point that we are on the brink of becoming a failed state. Despite this, those from the older generation have the audacity to tell us young Pakistanis that since we — the younger generation — watch Indian dramas and movies it makes us less Pakistani.

    The young generation does not want to live in a ‘closed society’ based on failed ideas. India and Pakistan have in common a history, a past and they share a culture. At the people’s level, both countries want to live in peace — though that may not be a sentiment shared by our decision-makers. With no disrespect to our elders, those in the young generation do not think in extremes. There is a huge middle ground and that can be used to build a relationship between the two countries. Calling each other the enemy does not help anyone.

    Watching each other’s movies and dramas, interacting at least at the people’s level, and playing cricket helps us in avoiding these extremes and staying in the middle ground where we accept each other as good neighbours.

    Muhammad Ali Ehsan

    Karachi

    Source: India not our enemy
     
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  3. Daredevil

    Daredevil On Vacation! Administrator

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    At least some people see the truth. Good to know.
     
  4. qsaark

    qsaark Regular Member

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    You are saying this as an Indian; ask me, what I feel when I come across such write-ups. Military has ruled our unfortunate nation for more than 30 or so years. From the day first, the military is systematically brain-washing the Pakistanis and presenting itlsef as the only force standing between the poor Pakistani Muslims and the evil Hindus. Military and its supporter know that the day Pakistani nation stopped buying the imaginary Hindu-dominance fear, that would be the last day of Military establishment. Kashmir is a dead issue and a majority of learnerd PAkistanis knows this, yet the Military want to keep it alive. It is only a matter of time when they will go for yet another misadventure in Kashmir to prove they are the sole saviors.
     
  5. ahmedsid

    ahmedsid Top Gun Senior Member

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    I know many Pakistanis who know that the real fault lies in Pakistan and not In India. The Army will never let Kashmir issue be solved, because if it does, then their relevance is gone. Right now they demonize the Civilian Leadership and act like they are the best! But has any Military leader in Pakistan Left gracefully?? I dont think so, they ruined Pakistan to be frank, and its time they keep to the barracks and let democracy do the twist.
     
  6. Sabir

    Sabir DFI TEAM Senior Member

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    Anyway some polititians in our country has the same habit too.....they know what captures common poor people....zingoism in the name of patriotism..........We all know that....still....No wonders we are ruled by them. Just wait for the day when we will open the glasses of hatred for each other and India-Pakistan will be most prosperous part of the world.
     
  7. Daredevil

    Daredevil On Vacation! Administrator

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    I completely agree with you. In all my posts regarding India-Pakistan issues, I always said, as long as Pakistani Army is powerful, there will be no Indo-Pakistan peace. Actually, if Kashmir problem is solved, then Pakistan would not need such a strong military. So they keep the Kashmir problem on the boil to keep their military institute intact. Many Pakistanis don't realize (unlike you) that Pakistani military is growing at the cost of other institutes like democratic parliament, economy, education, infrastructure etc. I don't see much change in this situation in the near future. Sad but true.
     
  8. thakur_ritesh

    thakur_ritesh Administrator Administrator

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    it is good to see a section of former pakistan army chaps are talking the way they are now, just today i read what pakistan's former NSA mr mahmud ali durrani had to say on the 65 war ( Pak did not achieve anything from wars with India: Durrani ), and it is heartening to see all this talk in not just coming from a section of civil society of pakistan, something that is hopefully reserved only for the past now. hopefully these sensible lot do not get termed as traitors as has happened so may times in the past.

    if one is to look at the bigger brighter picture developing, then there surely are some signs of change, may be slowly and steadily things do change for a better tomorrow between both our countries. right from zardari's positive stand on issues, to the freight transit for the two countries through the two countries, to now this talk, an atmosphere for a all issues to be discussed is being created, which is good.

    the skeptic in me is still waiting for the hawks to take center stage on both sides as has happened so many times in the past, will they be given that space in the print and electronic media through which they prosper and vent venom, is yet another thing to be seen. well if anything, now is also the time for responsible journalism, where these media groups play a mature role rather than some useless sensationalism and try and be a part of this peace process.
     
  9. mattster

    mattster Respected Member Senior Member

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    Qsaark......I appreciate your posting the article and its good to see that there are realistic rational people in Pakistan.

    But I have to pose this question: I really wonder where this fear of being dominated or invaded by a Hindu India comes from ??

    First of all : who the heck would ever want to take control of Pakistan ?? Even if India had the means to overrun Pakistan(which it does not): Why would India do it ??

    Pakistan is such a screwed up mess(has always been one) that even if the Pakistanis came to India and said lets merge to form one country again....the Indians would run for their lives.

    I am not saying that India is not screwed up too. It certainly is, and has many of the same problems as Pakistan, but Pakistan is disfunctional in ways that make it stand out in a league of its own.

    Why would anybody, or any foreign power want to inherit the mess that is Pakistan today ?? I am not trying to insult Pakistanis here.....but I am just wondering why Pakistanis would even think that "evil Hindu India" wants to control Pakistan. Its a ludicurous assumption. Its not like India does not have enough problems of its own.

    Other than Kashmir problem, India couldnt care less about Pakistan.
     
  10. qsaark

    qsaark Regular Member

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    This fear comes when the minority rules the majority and time changes and the majority rightfully gets its right to rule.

    Muslims minority had ruled the Hindu majority for well over 800 years. They never though that a time would come when Hindus would become the rulers and rule the minority Muslims. Why you think Pakistan was made? It was the same fear of the Muslim elites that brought them on one platform and they struggled for a separate homeland. Were they doing it for the Indian Muslims? No, they were doing it for themselves. They wanted the continuation of their rule, and if its was not possible in the United India, why not butcher a piece of land in the name of Muslim majority?

    And let me also tell you that...Jinnah was aware of their (Muslim elite's) plan. Jinnah never wanted a separate 'Country' for the Indian Muslims, rather he always talked about a Muslim majority 'State'. Too bad he and others like him were in hopeless minority in the All India Muslim League. He was outmaneuvered by the 'hawks' such as Liaquat Ali Khan who did their best to annoy Sardar Patel and Nehru which eventually resulted in the failure of the Cabinet Plan.
     
  11. 1.44

    1.44 Member of The Month SEPTEMBER 2009 Senior Member

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    Always a nice change when hearing about people in Pakistan who recognize the facts a they are.Indo-Pak relations have been on a emotion backed roller coaster for decades.
    Many in both countries believe that our neighboring country can never be our friends.
    This might be true as long as the hawks have their way for some of the older generations the memories carnage of partition and the following conflicts are still fresh but perhaps we can pin our hopes on the young people when they take up the reigns in both countries.
    Zardari has made some promising overtures since taking office,let's hope they are examples of what can be possible between the two countries.
     
  12. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

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    Appreciate the views of the authors there. I hope there are more over there in Pakistan who think the same.

    I have always maintained in my posts on indo-pak relations that the problem between the two countries remains the PA/ISI power structure and it's use of terror as a state policy towards India to offset it's weaker than Indias military. Through the years they have brainwashed and spread false propaganda about a Hindu India trying to dominate Muslims. Even the Jihadis are shown alleged attrocities on Muslims in India.
    Muslims lived very peacefully in India and continue to do so. Yes once in a while you have vested interests playing foul, but overall Muslims in India are very happy to be Indians.

    I will bet my bottom paisa that as long as PA/ISI power structure remains, there will be no peace between the two countries even if Kashmir is resolved by India giving away the whole of Kashmir itself to Pakistan, just to buy peace.
    It will only further embolden them to come up with a new problem so as to keep whipping up passion and sustain their power.

    What Pakistan needs is a new independence movement. Independence from the rule of the military intel combine and have the kind of democracy as enjoyed by India. That day would bring peace between the two nations and open a new chapter in south Asia.
     
  13. qsaark

    qsaark Regular Member

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    Let me add some more..... It is not only ISI/Army that is responsible but the entire ruling elite class that includes:

    Army + Politicians + Religious Extremists + Industrialists + Feudals

    It is not un-common an observation that these five class and their interests are inter-wined very tightly. Not only that, they also inter-marry hence over a period of several decades, they have formed a web, an impenetrable network. As long as this web is intact, there will be no peace between India and Pakistan. There will never come prosperity to the common Pakistanis. Now is there a peaceful way of tearing apart this web? I am extremely skeptical. In my opinion, the only solution is a bloody revolution. The poor of Pakistan have to stand up, and destroy this web and its bloody inhabitants who have been sucking their blood for past 62 long years. Who some times make them fool in the name of religion, sometimes in the name of India, and sometimes in the name of rest of the anti-Muslim world.
     
  14. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    qsaark does it have to be such a violent change?? also religion used as a propaganda tool and India fear may prevent such a revolution??
     
  15. qsaark

    qsaark Regular Member

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    You may be right here, but the question is for how long? Were Bengalis not fed with the same propaganda? Were they not scared with the Hindu dominance? But Bengalis were smart, it took them only 22 years to realize that they were made fool by the Military and Civil establishment of Pakistan.

    And about the bloody revolution…No one wants that but there is no option. Do I need to tell you that what I can write on this forum is not allowed to jot down on the major Pakistani fora? People of Pakistan have no place to express their concerns… The establishment has closed all the doors for them… They have no representative in the assemblies, all those who are sitting there are feudals, members of the ruling elite class… If they go on the street, they are beaten up by the Police… If they talk about their rights, Army is used against them… They are labeled traitors, and un-thankful, and Indian-sympathizers. You tell me, what they do?
     
  16. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    qsaark there are no simple answers, but i like to be optimistic, and always hope for good relations for both countries. It may take time but it will happen, expanded trade could be a possible catalyst.
     
  17. qsaark

    qsaark Regular Member

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    I know there is no simple answer, and there can not be. We are not living under ‘normal’ circumstances; we are living in a state of ‘stress’. It is not that one part of the body has got the cancer, it the whole body that is suffering with it. In order to fix this body, Aspirin wont do, this body needs some really punishing therapies, no matter how painful they may be. If the body has to recover, it has to bite this bullet one or other way.

    But before any therapy could start, the body has to realize that it has problem. Until and unless this body does not realize it has a problem, it will never put itself on the course of recovery. We need more people like Hasan Nisar. He does not talk, he vomits fire. His tongue is not tongue, but a scalpel. Listen to this clip….

    YouTube - Hasan Nisar: Myth of Islamic Civilization

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xL5tbU9_Kgc
     
  18. mattster

    mattster Respected Member Senior Member

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    The good intentions of Zardari or Nawaz Sharif or any of the civilian Pak leaders nothwithstanding, how can anyone dealing with Pakistan know if the civilian leaders are really in charge ??

    The biggest problem for any Foreign leader with dealing with Pakistan's civilian leaders is that you are not really sure if the civilian leadership has real control of the Army. Who is really in charge - Zardari or Kiyani ??
    How much power does Zardari carry with the army & ISI ??

    So any country having to negiotiate peace with Pakistan has to deal with 2 parties. Also, they always have to have a Plan-B, in case their Plan-A deal with the Civilian government of Pakistan get ditched by the military guys.

    This is why its just about impossible to resolve anything with Pakistan !!
     
  19. qsaark

    qsaark Regular Member

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    I beg to differ here. Our civilian leadership is not any better than the Military leadership. As I have mentioned above, their interests are same as both of them belong to the same class. Please listen to this clip:

    YouTube - Hasan Nisar Exposes The Elite Class of His Country
     
  20. mattster

    mattster Respected Member Senior Member

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    Qsaark.....if the tie-up between all the elite factions in Pakistan is as tight as you suggest(and i dont doubt your hard-nosed analysis)....then, there is no doubt that the common man is simply screwed !!

    Its almost impossible to dislogde such a structure unless you have a highly educated mobile population, or the other alternative is a full-blown violent revolution.

    Another country that is facing an equally wicked evil elite nexus between - Politician + Military + Industrialists is Indonesia.

    These 3 groups have literally turned a nation with a population of over a 100 million into virtual beggars of South-East Asia. Indonesian women and men work in the most terrible conditions in other countries like Malaysia & Singapore & Gulf to send home money to their families.
     
  21. thakur_ritesh

    thakur_ritesh Administrator Administrator

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    interesting discussion this thread is generating.

    Qsaark,

    i have always wanted to ask these question but assuming i would not get a honest answer so never bothered to ask this to a pakistani before, but after having followed your discussions, which come across as candid, so here i go with them.

    1). you said you have been labeled a gaddar on certain online forums, i will like to understand why do people get into such name calling, is it a part of a bigger propaganda that who ever speaks against a set agenda gets that label and the same gets followed by every one in pakistan. lets take the extreme of the case of indian politicians in india, the mayawati's or the mulayam's, no matter how bad they might be still we never call them gaddar. lets take the case of arundhati roy, who said it was time for kashmir to be independent from india, a thought supported by vir sanghvi of hindustantimes, but again these two indians were never labeled as traitors.

    2). are there people in pakistan who feel partition was wrong, and that pakistan should never have been an independent country. (mind you, i do not feel pakistan and india need to merge.)

    3). is the prc truly a all weather friend of pakistan for we believe the only reason that binds this relationship is the common animosity towards india.

    4). there is a section in pakistan which feels mush should be hanged to death, is this the right way of dealing with problems. violence is only going to get you more violence so where will be the peace come from that some of the pakistanis say they can get only by way of democracy, and so as to sustain that democracy they need to hang mush.
     

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