India, Abbottabad, and Osama bin Laden: Did New Delhi Assist the U.S.

Discussion in 'Pakistan' started by arunpat, Jan 26, 2013.

  1. arunpat

    arunpat Regular Member

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    By: Jeff Emanuel (Diary) | September 10th, 2012 at 07:15 PM


    The most-discussed “revelation” in No Easy Day: The Firsthand Account of the Mission that Killed Osama bin Laden, by former Navy SEAL “Mark Owen,” is certainly Osama bin Laden’s status as unarmed when he was shot twice in the head by an American operator in his Abbottabad house. Not only was the al Qaeda leader and terror mastermind not holding a weapon when he was killed, but his guns weren’t even loaded, despite more than ten minutes’ warning – after a hard landing by a Black Hawk helicopter and a firefight at the guest house – that his compound was under attack. After bin Laden was killed, Owen writes, the SEAL “took each weapon down and pulled out the magazine and checked the chambers. They were both empty. He hadn’t even prepared a defense. He had no intention of fighting.”

    While interesting (and while a significant challenge to aspects of the Obama administration’s initial narrative, including that bin Laden used one of his wives as a human shield), there is another detail in No Easy Day that is interesting enough to warrant some additional questions and discussion: the infiltration route taken by the two MH-60s that carried the assault teams from Jalalabad, Afghanistan to Abbottabad, Pakistan.**

    The fourteenth page of images in No Easy Day contains a map showing the routes taken by the two flights of helicopters: the Black Hawks taking the assaulters to Abbottabad, and the MH-47 Chinooks carrying a quick reaction force (QRF) and forward area refueling point (FARP) team. While the latter flew due east to a staging area northwest of Abbottabad, the former flight is shown on Owen’s map as crossing over Pakistan’s eastern border with India before looping around and approaching Abbottabad from the southeast, rather than approaching directly from the west (or west-northwest).

    This apparent use of Indian airspace on the infiltration route raises some obvious questions, including:

    What foreknowledge (if any) did the Indian government have about the mission into Pakistan?
    If clearance to use Indian airspace was requested (and granted), what was the Indian government told, either about the real objective of Operation Neptune Spear or as a cover story?
    What other assistance did India provide, either in terms of aerial diversion or supplying the U.S. with guidance on the best route back into Pakistan? (It seems clear that the latter would involve providing the U.S. some insight into India’s intelligence and route planning for a possible strike on Pakistan should hostilities resume between the two states.)
    It’s important to note at this point that this discussion is based on a single low-detail graphic (which you can see above, or in its entirety at this link) from an account that was neither vetted nor confirmed by the U.S. government. At no point in the text of No Easy Day is the route to Abbottabad discussed (as opposed to the return trip, which is dealt with in some detail); in fact, Owen writes, most of the team slept on the way in.

    Owen’s map appears to define Pakistan’s eastern border as the western boundary of Kashmir, the disputed territory that is bisected into Pakistani- and Indian-administered territories by the Line of Control, established in 1972, and it is difficult to tell whether the image was intended to show that the helicopters’ route crossed the LOC. However, the route appears to take the Americans in the vicinity of Uri, in Indian territory.

    It goes without saying that crossing over the LOC would have been an exceedingly dangerous undertaking, and one which, while crossing eastward, would almost certainly have required providing prior notice to the Indian government. Likewise, passing back across the LOC into Pakistan would have been a dangerous undertaking, as that is the direction in which Pakistan’s air defenses are largely oriented. This goes back to point 3 above: if the assaulters’ route to Abbottabad included crossing over the Indian border and back again, it seems likely that weaknesses in Pakistan’s eastward-oriented air defenses known to India were communicated to the U.S. and exploited on this mission.

    It certainly isn’t beyond the realm of possibility that India, which has been called a “key ally in the fight against global terrorism,” would have provided such information and assistance to the US. India would seem to have a vested interest in helping America succeed at a mission like Neptune Spear, at very least due to the opportunity to embarrass the Pakistani military-intelligence complex while adding to the strain in the US-Pakistani relationship. Additionally, India has an interest in Afghanistan, having reached an agreement to provide training and equipment to Afghan security forces, assist in infrastructure development, and access the nation’s mineral and natural gas resources. Add to that reports that bin Laden was involved in the planning of the 2008 Mumbai massacre, and there is plenty

    A May 2012 report on U.S.–Pakistani relations by the Congressional Research Service noted the following about Operation Neptune Spear’s effect on the Pakistani–Indian relationship:

    The circumstances of OBL’s death were relevant to the course of relations between Pakistan and India. Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh called the killing “a significant step forward” and expressed hope that it would represent a decisive blow to AQ and other terrorist groups.

    At the same time, however, New Delhi is concerned that the development is hastening a U.S. withdrawal from Afghanistan in ways that could be harmful to India’s foreign policy interests. New Delhi also saw the discovery of OBL in Pakistan as an opportunity to more energetically press its demands that Islamabad extradite the alleged perpetrators of the 2008 Mumbai terrorist attack, Lashkar-e-Taiba figures believed to be in Pakistan, as well as other most-wanted anti-India terrorists such as organized crime figure Dawood Ibrahim.

    Did India see enough opportunity in Operation Neptune Spear that it provided access both to airspace and to sensitive intelligence on Pakistani air defenses and infiltration routes? One simple map in No Easy Day certainly raises some interesting questions about Indian involvement in the most famous raid of the war on terror, and while we may never know the answers for certain, they are certainly worth asking. After all, who knows whether the next unauthorized disclosure about the bin Laden raid might provide some answers about that very subject.

    [​IMG]

    India, Abbottabad, and Osama bin Laden: Did New Delhi Assist the U.S. on Operation Neptune Spear? | RedState
     
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  3. W.G.Ewald

    W.G.Ewald Defence Professionals/ DFI member of 2 Defence Professionals

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  4. binayak95

    binayak95 Regular Member

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    Re: India, Abbottabad, and Osama bin Laden: Did New Delhi Assist the U

    If the map is correct, then the IAF must have known about the op.
     
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  5. binayak95

    binayak95 Regular Member

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    Re: India, Abbottabad, and Osama bin Laden: Did New Delhi Assist the U

    After 26/11 it is known that our special forces planned to raid training camps in PoK. they were confident that our helicopters would evade Pakistani radars. Were the details of ingress routes shared with the Americans???? The answers will be known only when the US declassifies documents about the raids in the future
     
  6. The Messiah

    The Messiah Bow Before Me! Elite Member

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    Re: India, Abbottabad, and Osama bin Laden: Did New Delhi Assist the U

    this is cow shit.
     
  7. noob101

    noob101 Regular Member

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    Re: India, Abbottabad, and Osama bin Laden: Did New Delhi Assist the U

    Nice story, but Im not buying it.... here is why

    a. Why would anyone want to penetrate Paki air defenses when they are already in Paki airspace? what is the advantage to it?
    b. I don't doubt that GoI was willing to help in this operation, but I doubt that Unkil would risk us knowing it and for good reason... Don't get me wrong..... No one in GoI or IM would have leaked the information on purpose but something like this would have involved :
    PM, National Security Advisor, MoD, Sonia Gandhi, ACM, Commanders and Deputy Commanders in charge of western air defenses, RAW, Army Chief and probably more than 1 Army core commanders and all their offices making it at least a 100 people that would need to know about it along with all the air force personnel manning the western air defenses
    Also, it would be politically hard not to involve the head of the navy, jr MoDs, Ambassador, other senior Congress party officials, President .... and now you have a situation where more people in GoI and IM know about the operation than in the US government or military and it just not something that I see Unkil risking... one mole or spy is enough to ruin the whole deal
     
  8. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

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    Re: India, Abbottabad, and Osama bin Laden: Did New Delhi Assist the U

    IF ITS TRUE, that they did use Indian airspace and that India did provide the route map, it means India has complete knowledge of Paki air defence and he gaps in it. Provided the US with the route and validated its own intel on the lack of Paki AD in the area.
     
  9. sayareakd

    sayareakd Moderator Moderator

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    Re: India, Abbottabad, and Osama bin Laden: Did New Delhi Assist the U

    another attempt to mislead world.

    [​IMG]

    in the red area, it is almost impossible to enter without getting detected, LOC has not only our guys patrolling and keeping watch but also Pakistanis.
    Assuming that GOI was informed even then it is difficult to get in and out of Pak airspace and then again enter the same. It would have caused alert right up to PAF and PA Chief level.

    For US, Pak is paid whore, plus all the radars are supplied by them, they had plenty of time to inspect the same and make it useless as they had months of time in their hand and they routinely check their equipment, as per their agreement with Pak. So their radar system on Afgani side was useless.

    If i was Uncle i would think more of OBL then to start India Pak war, yeah they must have through of escape route through India, if things get bad.
     
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  10. SPIEZ

    SPIEZ Senior Member Senior Member

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    Re: India, Abbottabad, and Osama bin Laden: Did New Delhi Assist the U

    We have had enough of all this crap.

    We can help a third party, but we can't do squat lying around?

    Why shouldn't we take the same approach with terrorists in Pakistan?

    Why wasn't Iliyas Kashmiri targeted the same way, instead he was finally killed by the Americans.
     
  11. Decklander

    Decklander New Member

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    Re: India, Abbottabad, and Osama bin Laden: Did New Delhi Assist the U

    I do not buy the story that US wud enter PaK airspace than exit it and reenter from Indian Side. That wud have exposed them to a large number of radars on Pak side from Afgan border to Indian Border. And why wud an attacking force take double the risk when they had already entered without detection into Pak from Afgan side without being detected? However there is another story to it.
    An Indian delegation was to go to Pak around that time and was cancelled at the last moment citing some vague reasons. Did India have an advance warning of it? The shortest route to Abbotabad is from Indian side and not from Afgan side. Did US special forces actually get airborne from Indian soil and this publicised airroute is actually a way to keep lids on the truth? US & Indian special forces have been known to operate together for many years. All these choppers cud have been easily flown inside the belly of C-17s with men and than take off from Indian side, attack and rush to Afgan side without the need to refuel. All members must realise that in such a mission where the engines are kept running and refueling is not available, it is very important to have a large amount of fuel in the tanks to be able to escape with enough fuel to zig-zag to avaoid enemy forces. If US helos had indeed taken the route as being talked of, they wud have arrived at Abbotabad with barely enough fuel to make a straight dash across to afgan border with no ability to weave or take circuitous route to avoid enemy radars which wud have come up the moment this attack was noticed.
    I do not buy the story that two CH-47s were used to set up a refuelling base inside pakistan. Pakistan is not africa, it has a very high population density in that area and has very net savvy people. Those people infact even heard and reported the helos when they arrived even before they had landed in that area. Also one of the most important point which has still not been explained by anyone is that who carried the troops which arrived in the helo which went down? They had additional people and dead body of OBL also with them? The QRT had stayed away and did not have much space in their own CH-47s.
    The most plausible story for me is that these choppers took off from Indian territory with an additional back up CH-47. there was NO refueling point inside Pakistan as claimed. Also pak wud have mistaken it to be an attack by Indian forces, which they infact did, and wud have activated their radar network towards India while the raiding party wud have exited from the western border of Pak where they wud not have even thought in their dreams that raid will come from or escape to.

    Regarding the point made by @Yusuf, I wish to inform you that not more than 12 people in the entire indian establishment wud have known about this mission if it had actually been done from Indian territory. Remember that we dug holes for two weeks in Rajasthan for Pokharan-2 and no one came to know about it. All officers involved in it kept their mouth shut. And the best snooping tech of US and the world went blind.
     
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  12. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Re: India, Abbottabad, and Osama bin Laden: Did New Delhi Assist the U

    The -60s can carry around 1300 litres of fuel while the -47s can carry 3400 litres internally.

    There is a ERFS (Extended range fuel system) version of Chinook which carries an extra 7700 litres of fuel (according to fas.org). Theoretically that's more than enough fuel for the mission.

    Chinooks help Army copters refuel in perilous conditions - News - Stripes

    At least they are trained to set up re-fueling points within enemy territory.
     
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  13. aragorn

    aragorn Senior Member Senior Member

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    Re: India, Abbottabad, and Osama bin Laden: Did New Delhi Assist the U


    If that is the case Best Air Force in the world must be shitting bricks by now..Someone not only found their holes but also inserted big attack helicopters in it... :D
     
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  14. nrj

    nrj Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Re: India, Abbottabad, and Osama bin Laden: Did New Delhi Assist the U

    Lets consider that India helped US for Abbottabad Operation. Then what favor did GOI bought in return ?? :hmm:
     
  15. Mad Indian

    Mad Indian Proud Bigot Veteran Member Senior Member

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    Re: India, Abbottabad, and Osama bin Laden: Did New Delhi Assist the U

    $$$$$$$$$$$:truestory:
     
  16. W.G.Ewald

    W.G.Ewald Defence Professionals/ DFI member of 2 Defence Professionals

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    Re: India, Abbottabad, and Osama bin Laden: Did New Delhi Assist the U

    What I think is that a SEAL/operator would not need to know accurate flight routes. The pilot/navigators would know them and GPS coordinates. "Mark Owens" alleged map is a book illustration, not a map. Unless there are coordinates provided in his book, the controversy is almost meaningless speculation..
     
  17. W.G.Ewald

    W.G.Ewald Defence Professionals/ DFI member of 2 Defence Professionals

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    Re: India, Abbottabad, and Osama bin Laden: Did New Delhi Assist the U

    Compare this map with illustration from Owen's book.
     
  18. Daredevil

    Daredevil On Vacation! Administrator

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    Re: India, Abbottabad, and Osama bin Laden: Did New Delhi Assist the U

    Its all bunkum.
     
  19. Bhadra

    Bhadra Defence Professionals Defence Professionals Senior Member

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    Re: India, Abbottabad, and Osama bin Laden: Did New Delhi Assist the U

    Najam Sethi has revealed that such operation was not possible without the help of Pakistani Army and Air Force.

    This is only a diversionary move.
     
  20. W.G.Ewald

    W.G.Ewald Defence Professionals/ DFI member of 2 Defence Professionals

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    Re: India, Abbottabad, and Osama bin Laden: Did New Delhi Assist the U

    It's a fabricated controversy based on an assumption which has not been analyzed.

     
  21. Daredevil

    Daredevil On Vacation! Administrator

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    Re: India, Abbottabad, and Osama bin Laden: Did New Delhi Assist the U

    That's unadulterated :bs:

    They were caught with their pants down. If they knew they wouldn't let it happen.
     
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