Imported Single Engine Fighter Jet Contest

[Sancho]

Unrealistic expectations? First define what is realistic? Expecting Tejas MK2 to be equivalent of Gripen E is now unrealistic?

Yes it is, because it ignores the different aims of the MK2 and Gripen E developments.
Gripen E was aimed at increasing load capabilities into the medium class, from the light class Gripen C/D base.
If Saab only wanted to add upgraded radar and flight performance, they could had done that with the C/D airframe as well, since Volvo offered an upgraded engine and the AESA could be added too.

LCA MK2 on the other hand, was aimed on fixing LCA MK1s performance problems and getting it to the level to comply to the ASR. That's why the higher thrust engine is the key upgrade, next to aerodynamic improvements.

So the expectation for LCA MK2 should not be to compete with medium class Gripen E, but be on par with upgraded Gripen C/Ds in the light class market.

What is a more capable fighter?

One that can counter J10 and J11 in high numbers, that is able to do SEAD and heavy cross border strikes, to not make India dependent on MKIs alone.
Tejas is meant to support MMRCAs, just as Mig 21s supported Mirage 2000 or Mig 29s in the past.

According to your definition of realism- Tejas MK2 is a light fighter that does nothing but interceptor role and small time bombing mission.

Check the LCA improvement thread, I showed simple ways to make it more useful, even without big changes, or raising the expectations too high. But no doubt, I would be more than happy with Tejas being a good light class fighter, rather than an overhyped MMRCA.

 

[Sancho]

And as far as baked news are concerned, the motivate our forum folks to think over those over ambitious claims including decorated member.

Here, we can share whatever is technically possible but how can we defend those so called media hype believers.

Everybody should be free to have his/her own opinion of course, so you can only try to inform other people, to get them to base their opinions on facts and not only believes.

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"The Tejas is a light aircraft that has limitations of carrying capacity and endurance. But it has achieved its role as the best aircraft in its class. It has also successfully fired the latest beyond visual range (BVR) missiles. The IAF wants more variety. All the aircraft in its inventory can't be light. The IAF requires all kinds and that doesn't mean it isn't satisfied with the performance of Tejas," said ADA director Girish S Deodhare.

http://www.defencenews.in/article/IAF-not-unhappy-with-Tejas-Scientists-454782

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On the efficacy of light combat aircraft (LCA) “Tejas”, the Air Chief Marshal said: “We have stood behind Tejas. We signed a contract in March 2006 for the delivery of 20 aircraft in April 2009 and December 2011. It is 2017 and so far we have received only five. Another contract for 20 aircraft was signed in 2010 for delivery between June 2014 and December 2016. We had committed to 40.

“In addition, we are getting 83 aircraft of Mk1-A configuration. The Mk2 will be flying in 2023 with induction into the squadron by 2027,” he said.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/mobi/ne...al-no-overpricing-air-force-chief/498904.html

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When the planned inductions of the Single Engine Fighter under the strategic partner fructify, IAF will attain its authorised strength of 42 squadrons, which is expected by the end of the 15th Plan Period and which we feel is the minimum strength necessary to “dominate” a two-front conflict. The plan is to have an optimum mix of single/twin-engine aircraft and light/ medium and heavy aircraft to cover all terrains and operational areas in India. The IAF is likely to induct two squadrons of Rafale aircraft. In addition, four squadrons of Tejas are also planned to be inducted. Eventually the structure would be four types of fighter aircraft - Air Chief Marshal B S Dhanoa

http://indianexpress.com/article/in...ed-says-air-chief-marshal-b-s-dhanoa-4712413/

It was never Tejas or SE MMRCAs, but both next to each other!

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Understand the basis difference between opinions and facts ..

I don`t know NG or lite, But its going for Tejas which matters ..

How and what need not to be in public unless its Gov want people to know ..

Wait and see before getting to quick conclusions ..

@Kunal Biswas This is why I said BrahMos-NG is neither operationally nor technically feasible.. If somebody force Developers to carry it than they can strengthen the mk1 & mk1a pylon but it will not help LCA to make it operationally feasible.

 

[Kshithij]

Yes it is, because it ignores the different aims of the MK2 and Gripen E developments.
Gripen E was aimed at increasing load capabilities into the medium class, from the light class Gripen C/D base.
If Saab only wanted to add upgraded radar and flight performance, they could had done that with the C/D airframe as well, since Volvo offered an upgraded engine and the AESA could be added too.

LCA MK2 on the other hand, was aimed on fixing LCA MK1s performance problems and getting it to the level to comply to the ASR. That's why the higher thrust engine is the key upgrade, next to aerodynamic improvements.

So the expectation for LCA MK2 should not be to compete with medium class Gripen E, but be on par with upgraded Gripen C/Ds in the light class market.




One that can counter J10 and J11 in high numbers, that is able to do SEAD and heavy cross border strikes, to not make India dependent on MKIs alone.
Tejas is meant to support MMRCAs, just as Mig 21s supported Mirage 2000 or Mig 29s in the past.



Check the LCA improvement thread, I showed simple ways to make it more useful, even without big changes, or raising the expectations too high. But no doubt, I would be more than happy with Tejas being a good light class fighter, rather than an overhyped MMRCA.

Why do you have to assume that MK2 will be made only to undo shortcomings without being more pragmatic and include as much as possible? Why do you think people are so strictly fanatical?

You can call anything as hyped to just soothe your mind. I can't help that.

Everything is possible. All I am saying is that purposefully botching up in the pretense of making it 'upgraded MK1' when there is every opportunity to redesign things since the MK2 anyways has different airframe, is criminal negligence from ADA. I am not sure whether the ADA people are of such types. According to you they are, according to me, not.

Let us see how things turn out instead of using pretentious technicalities as excuses to make comments.

 

[TPFscopes]

Understand the basis difference between opinions and facts ..

I don`t know NG or lite, But its going for Tejas which matters ..

How and what need not to be in public unless its Gov want people to know ..

Wait and see before getting to quick conclusions ..

Let me give an example which may be related to your core interest.
Have you ever expect to Arjun mk3 to be a amphibious tank which can float on water?
Or
To install heavy turret over bmp-2 with 120mm smoothbore cannon?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I don`t have any expectation to start with, When the design will come and specs will be there then only one can make out its adaptability, without knowing the root one cannot get to conclusions ..

 

[TPFscopes]

I don`t have any expectation to start with, When the design will come and specs will be there then only one can make out its adaptability, without knowing the root one cannot get to conclusions ..

If it will be in media by some journos...
Like they are bashing out LCA on behalf of IAF with their own words, many guys are still took those articles as a backup data.
But we all know that it was nothing more than a paid campaign..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

IAF not completely clean or any branch of armed forces is ..

That article was indeed from a lobby within IAF to paid media ..

 

[TPFscopes]

================ Deleted at Request ==================

 

[Sancho]

Why do you have to assume that MK2 will be made only to undo shortcomings without being more pragmatic and include as much as possible?

The assumption is that it will be more and so far there are no indications from ADA, HAL or IAF for it. While we know for a fact why the MK2 development was started and how ADA is planing the design changes.

So let's not make unfounded assumptions, only because we want Tejas to be something special.

 

[Sancho]

IAF not completely clean or any branch of armed forces is ..

That article was indeed from a lobby within IAF to paid media ..

You mean parts of IAF paid for am article to discredit IAF?

 

[mayfair]

Tejas IS something special. It is a highly capable plane that perfectly fits with our needs and moreover it is ours, which means we can do whatever we want with it, without running to the OEM.

The importance and significance of Tejas goes beyond it being a simple machine and no imported fighter SEF or TEF or MEF will ever give us that.

 

[TPFscopes]

You mean parts of IAF paid for am article to discredit IAF?

Folks have no idea what is going on...
It was a great conspiracy but IAF intelligently settled the dust..

Tejas IS something special. It is a highly capable plane that perfectly fits with our needs and moreover it is ours, which means we can do whatever we want with it, without running to the OEM.

The importance and significance of Tejas goes beyond it being a simple machine and no imported fighter SEF or TEF or MEF will ever give us that.

Really?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Yes ..

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You mean parts of IAF brass paid for an article to discredit part of IAF?

 

[mayfair]

Really?

Yes................................

 

[Sancho]

Tejas IS something special. It is a highly capable plane that perfectly fits with our needs and moreover it is ours, which means we can do whatever we want with it, without running to the OEM.

The importance and significance of Tejas goes beyond it being a simple machine and no imported fighter SEF or TEF or MEF will ever give us that.

The common misconception that is based on pride, rather than the reality of the programme or the operational needs of the IAF to defend the country.

Yes, Tejas the fighter is ours, but we had to go to foreign OEMs to get a working nose, the refuelling probe, the radar, the engine, fixing Kaveri, fixing DRDOs radar, support in test and certification of the fighter, just as fixing NLCA. We can't simply ignore the huge foreign involvement the programme has, more importantly we can't ignore that most of it came only after we messed things up and needed foreign help. If we teamed up with foreign partners from the start, like we did it with the Dhruv, we might have seen more Tejas operational by now.

Apart of that, there is the operational requirement of IAF and the only reason the SE MMRCA tender came up, was that we are at least 90 medium class fighters short after the PM bought only 36 Rafales. So Tejas is not a solution here, once because it still suffers from it's own problems and by the simple fact that it's not a medium class fighter.

We don't help Tejas by ignoring it's problems, or operational limitations. Nor do we help the forces, by blaming them for not buying products that doesn't fit to their operational needs.

 

[Sancho]

Yes ..

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Can you explain the possible reasons behind that?

 

[LordOfTheUnderworlds]

The common misconception that is based on pride, rather than the reality of the programme or the operational needs of the IAF to defend the country.

Yes, Tejas the fighter is ours, but we had to go to foreign OEMs to get a working nose, the refuelling probe, the radar, the engine, fixing Kaveri, fixing DRDOs radar, support in test and certification of the fighter, just as fixing NLCA. We can't simply ignore the huge foreign involvement the programme has, more importantly we can't ignore that most of it came only after we messed things up and needed foreign help. If we teamed up with foreign partners from the start, like we did it with the Dhruv, we might have seen more Tejas operational by now.

Apart of that, there is the operational requirement of IAF and the only reason the SE MMRCA tender came up, was that we are at least 90 medium class fighters short after the PM bought only 36 Rafales. So Tejas is not a solution here, once because it still suffers from it's own problems and by the simple fact that it's not a medium class fighter.

We don't help Tejas by ignoring it's problems, or operational limitations. Nor do we help the forces, by blaming them for not buying products that doesn't fit to their operational needs.

@Sancho sir, can you please explain what exactly is this 'medium heavy and lightweight' class fighters? As per old posts, people on this forum claimed these are meaningless phrases invented out of thin air to justify foreign import. Can you please briefly explain significance of these concepts and which other nations use it in their doctrines.
Regards.

 

[mayfair]

We don't help Tejas by ignoring it's problems, or operational limitations. Nor do we help the forces, by blaming them for not buying products that doesn't fit to their operational needs.

No, we help Tejas by inducting in large numbers and ironing the shortcomings and ploughing the feedback back to the developers and iteratively improving the platform. The mythical "operational limitations" will be dealt with the same way.

Tejas is already in a far better shape that we inducted Mig 21, Jaguar and even Mirage 2000s in.

The ahead is going indigenous as much as possible, because the foreign OEMs will never share their key tech with you, all the consultancy notwithstanding. Doing things ourselves and making mistakes is how we learn and that includes taking help from wherever necessary.

 

[Sancho]

@Sancho sir, can you please explain what exactly is this 'medium heavy and lightweight' class fighters? As per old posts, people on this thread claimed these are meaningless phrases invented out of thin air to justify foreign import. Can you please briefly explain significance of these concepts and which other nations use it in their doctrines.
Regards.

The IAF differs on light, medium and heavy class fighters based on the MTOW. The MMRCA tender for example had an upper limit at 30000Kg, to keep heavy class MKIs or F15s out, while LCA with a MTOW of around 13000Kg is considered to the light class.

Medium class fighters, usually are also larger in size, to add more hardpoints, larger radars, more internal systems (EW, IRST, avionics) and so on, which makes them more capable as a base line. If you look at all major Air Forces in the world, you usually will find a medium class low end fighter, combined with a high end heavy class fighter (F16/F15, Mig 29/Flankers, J10/Flankers). Because the medium class gives you a good mix out of cost and capability, that can be deployed in numbers.

Light class fighters are mainly used by smaller Air Forces, that aim on air policing, basic air defence and CAS roles, because of load and performance limitations.
Tejas, if fully capable to it's own requirements, will be perfectly fine for these basic roles, but to be prepared for the worst case scenario, we need a more capable medium class segment.

Btw, Sancho is enough