IDN Archives: Why India Should Dump The FGFA Project?

[WolfPack86]

Like most other Russian projects the FGFA or the PAK-FA is one which was high on promise but low on delivery. The specs for this aircraft promises a lot in terms of technology where the Russians are known to be lacking in capability and even they are unsure about their capacity to deliver. Lets look at specs of the T-50 aircraft which is available in Wikipedia.
The FGFA is a derivative from the PAK-FA wherein the India specific customization are sought to be done on the T-50 platform as per IAF’s requirement. So there is no joint development as such.
Length: 19.8 m (65.0 ft)
Wingspan: 13.95 m (45.8 ft)
Height: 4.74 m (15.6 ft)
Wing area: 78.8 m2 (848.1 ft2)
Empty weight: 18,000 kg (39,680 lb)
Loaded weight: 25,000 kg (55,115 lb) typical mission weight, 29,270 kg (64,530 lb) at full load
Max. takeoff weight: 35,000 kg (77,160 lb)
Powerplant: 2 × NPO Saturn izdeliye 117 (AL-41F1) or initial production, izdeliye 30 for later production thrust vectoring turbofan
Dry thrust: 93.1 kN / 110 kN (21,000 lbf / 24,300 lbf) each
Thrust with afterburner: 147 kN / 176 kN (33,067 lbf / 39,600 lbf) each
Fuel capacity: 10,300 kg (22,700 lb)

Engine

The T-50 uses the NPO Saturn AL-41F1 engine with a dry thrust of 93kN.This is quite inadequate. Typically a 5th Generation aircraft with Supercruise as one of the main features should have a engine with a dry thrust of 110 – 120 kN.Such aircraft should not use afterburners because use of afterburners would give away the stealth. The Russians do not possess any proven design for such an engine and even if they come out with one, the result could be similar to that of Su – 30 MKI which has a track record of frequent burn-outs.

Stealth Badly Engineered

Startling similarities between Su-35 and PAK-FA
There is no clear vision as to how stealth will be achieved, neither does it make heavy use of sloped angles as in F-22 Raptor nor does it make use of composites. The air frame contains a lot of joins which is symbolic of poor construction techniques. Out of 12 weapon hard points 6 are internal and 6 are on the wings. The hard points on the wings give away the stealthiness of an aircraft, thus it leaves no in doubt about the fact that stealth is poorly engineered.
India will get a badly engineered base model which cannot be called a 5th Generation fighter with or without India specific features. This will not satisfy the IAF’s requirement.
Avionics
The avionics suite as known in public domain is:
Sh121 multi-functional integrated radio electronic system (MIRES)
N079 AESA radar
L402 Himalayas ECM suite built by KNIRTI institute
101KS Atoll electro-optical suite
101KS-O: Laser-based counter-measures against infrared missiles
101KS-V: IRST for airborne targets
101KS-U: Ultraviolet warning sensors
101KS-N: Targeting pod
This looks pretty ordinary and there is nothing which stands out as being uncommon or not available in aircraft of similar nature.

AESA Radar

N079 AESA Radar
The N079 is based on the N036 Byelka model, different versions of which were displayed at the MAKS airshow in 2009 and 2013.The radar system developed by Tikhomirov NIIP Institute consists of both X-band and L-band arrays but its performance against leading US models, especially the APG-77(V)2 of F-22A Raptor is unknown and kept secret for obvious reasons.
Russian Trial & Error at India’s Cost
The T-50 is the prototype developed for the Russian Air Force under the PAK-FA project. The FGFA is a derivative from the PAK-FA wherein the India specific customizations are sought to be done on the T-50 platform as per IAF’s requirement. So there is no joint development as such.
On 25 January 2016, it was reported that Russia and India have agreed to develop FGFA and lower investment cost to $4 billion for each nation, down from $5.5 billion earlier.
Russia has been very hesitant in transferring technology to India. It took about 8 years to transfer the barrel technology of T-90 tanks…
Should it cost $4 billion to make some customization? Informed sources say that it is the cost of development of the entire model and Russia will not invest a single rubble.
In other words Russia is fooling India to fund the development of its 5th Generation fighter aircraft base model i.e.T-50 which will be further developed by them as per their needs.
What will India get?
India will get a badly engineered base model which cannot be called a 5th Generation fighter with or without India specific features. This will not satisfy the IAF’s requirement.

Transfer of Technology Problems

If we were to assume that Russia would develop a new powerful engine for this aircraft, re-engineer stealth and do every other thing to make it a world-class 5th Generation fighter jet one question still remains. Would it transfer technology to India?

Russia has been very hesitant in transferring technology to India. It took about 8 years to transfer the barrel technology of T-90 tanks even though India purchased those in large numbers. In the case of Su -30 India placed the first order in 1996 for 50 Russian made Su-30′s.Thereafter several upgrades happened till 2012. On 24 December 2012, India ordered assembly kits for 42 Su-30MKIs by signing a deal during President Putin’s visit to India. This increases India’s order total to 272 Su-30MKIs. Russia didn’t transfer the Engine technology and HAL is dependent on Russia for components to assemble the engine and some spare parts. All this after India paid a whopping $15 Billion to Russia for design, development, CKD’s and SKD’s.

At a time when various indigenous fighter jet programs like LCA Mark 2, AMCA are struggling to get fund allocated from the Finance ministry, spending a huge amount of this magnitude on some junk fighter jet of foreign design is pure wastage of money.

So it is likely that Russia won’t transfer crucial technology of the new fighter jet making India ever dependent on it for components, spares etc even after spending a hefty $4 Billion on so called” design and development”.

In short the Russians plan is to milk India for the next 30 years, knowing fully well that she needs a 5th Generation fighter jet. The offer of “joint design and development” is just the entry point in their diabolical game plan.

Conclusion
Recent news suggest that the talks between India and Russia failed to decide on the S-400 surface-to-air missile system. India has stated that it wants to buy the next-generation air and missiles defense system but Russia wants to link the potential purchase to the PAK-FA deal.

This suggests that Russia is aware that its bear hug with respect to the PAK-FA deal may not work, so it is trying to coerce India into it using another deal.

According to India Today, New Delhi has lost confidence in the Russian T-50 PAK-FA effort after Moscow truncated its buy to about a squadron’s worth of jets. The prevailing view within the Indian air force is that if Russia—which is the senior partner—is backing out of the program, then it will be left as the sole operator of an aircraft that largely fails to meet its requirements. Instead of buying PAK-FA, Russia is planning to continue production of advanced Su-30 and Su-35 Flanker variants.

India’s own Fifth Generation Fighter project – AMCA has far better design and specifications compared to PAK-FA. In other words, the above is a Russian no-confidence vote against their own product.
If the Russians are not confident about their own product should we repose confidence in it. The answer is a simple no.

At a time when various indigenous fighter jet programs like LCA Mark 2, AMCA are struggling to get fund allocated from the Finance ministry, spending a huge amount of this magnitude on some junk fighter jet of foreign design is pure wastage of money. India’s own Fifth Generation Fighter project – AMCA has far better design and specifications compared to PAK-FA.

Its always better that we spend billions of dollars in training our own scientists and engineers in developing 5th Generation stealth fighter jet technology as it will not only strengthen our defense but also provide jobs to millions of our countrymen.

Quite rightly the Indian MoD, IAF has expressed reservations over this deal and they should now go one step further to dump it.

Note: This piece is from IDN archives, found it relevant even now as so much of noise is being made of this project but no clear headway is visible on the ground
http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2017/02/idn-archives-why-india-should-dump-fgfa.html

 

[Prayash]

Like most other Russian projects the FGFA or the PAK-FA is one which was high on promise but low on delivery. The specs for this aircraft promises a lot in terms of technology where the Russians are known to be lacking in capability and even they are unsure about their capacity to deliver. Lets look at specs of the T-50 aircraft which is available in Wikipedia.
The FGFA is a derivative from the PAK-FA wherein the India specific customization are sought to be done on the T-50 platform as per IAF’s requirement. So there is no joint development as such.
Length: 19.8 m (65.0 ft)
Wingspan: 13.95 m (45.8 ft)
Height: 4.74 m (15.6 ft)
Wing area: 78.8 m2 (848.1 ft2)
Empty weight: 18,000 kg (39,680 lb)
Loaded weight: 25,000 kg (55,115 lb) typical mission weight, 29,270 kg (64,530 lb) at full load
Max. takeoff weight: 35,000 kg (77,160 lb)
Powerplant: 2 × NPO Saturn izdeliye 117 (AL-41F1) or initial production, izdeliye 30 for later production thrust vectoring turbofan
Dry thrust: 93.1 kN / 110 kN (21,000 lbf / 24,300 lbf) each
Thrust with afterburner: 147 kN / 176 kN (33,067 lbf / 39,600 lbf) each
Fuel capacity: 10,300 kg (22,700 lb)

Engine

The T-50 uses the NPO Saturn AL-41F1 engine with a dry thrust of 93kN.This is quite inadequate. Typically a 5th Generation aircraft with Supercruise as one of the main features should have a engine with a dry thrust of 110 – 120 kN.Such aircraft should not use afterburners because use of afterburners would give away the stealth. The Russians do not possess any proven design for such an engine and even if they come out with one, the result could be similar to that of Su – 30 MKI which has a track record of frequent burn-outs.

Stealth Badly Engineered

Startling similarities between Su-35 and PAK-FA
There is no clear vision as to how stealth will be achieved, neither does it make heavy use of sloped angles as in F-22 Raptor nor does it make use of composites. The air frame contains a lot of joins which is symbolic of poor construction techniques. Out of 12 weapon hard points 6 are internal and 6 are on the wings. The hard points on the wings give away the stealthiness of an aircraft, thus it leaves no in doubt about the fact that stealth is poorly engineered.
India will get a badly engineered base model which cannot be called a 5th Generation fighter with or without India specific features. This will not satisfy the IAF’s requirement.
Avionics
The avionics suite as known in public domain is:
Sh121 multi-functional integrated radio electronic system (MIRES)
N079 AESA radar
L402 Himalayas ECM suite built by KNIRTI institute
101KS Atoll electro-optical suite
101KS-O: Laser-based counter-measures against infrared missiles
101KS-V: IRST for airborne targets
101KS-U: Ultraviolet warning sensors
101KS-N: Targeting pod
This looks pretty ordinary and there is nothing which stands out as being uncommon or not available in aircraft of similar nature.

AESA Radar

N079 AESA Radar
The N079 is based on the N036 Byelka model, different versions of which were displayed at the MAKS airshow in 2009 and 2013.The radar system developed by Tikhomirov NIIP Institute consists of both X-band and L-band arrays but its performance against leading US models, especially the APG-77(V)2 of F-22A Raptor is unknown and kept secret for obvious reasons.
Russian Trial & Error at India’s Cost
The T-50 is the prototype developed for the Russian Air Force under the PAK-FA project. The FGFA is a derivative from the PAK-FA wherein the India specific customizations are sought to be done on the T-50 platform as per IAF’s requirement. So there is no joint development as such.
On 25 January 2016, it was reported that Russia and India have agreed to develop FGFA and lower investment cost to $4 billion for each nation, down from $5.5 billion earlier.
Russia has been very hesitant in transferring technology to India. It took about 8 years to transfer the barrel technology of T-90 tanks…
Should it cost $4 billion to make some customization? Informed sources say that it is the cost of development of the entire model and Russia will not invest a single rubble.
In other words Russia is fooling India to fund the development of its 5th Generation fighter aircraft base model i.e.T-50 which will be further developed by them as per their needs.
What will India get?
India will get a badly engineered base model which cannot be called a 5th Generation fighter with or without India specific features. This will not satisfy the IAF’s requirement.

Transfer of Technology Problems

If we were to assume that Russia would develop a new powerful engine for this aircraft, re-engineer stealth and do every other thing to make it a world-class 5th Generation fighter jet one question still remains. Would it transfer technology to India?

Russia has been very hesitant in transferring technology to India. It took about 8 years to transfer the barrel technology of T-90 tanks even though India purchased those in large numbers. In the case of Su -30 India placed the first order in 1996 for 50 Russian made Su-30′s.Thereafter several upgrades happened till 2012. On 24 December 2012, India ordered assembly kits for 42 Su-30MKIs by signing a deal during President Putin’s visit to India. This increases India’s order total to 272 Su-30MKIs. Russia didn’t transfer the Engine technology and HAL is dependent on Russia for components to assemble the engine and some spare parts. All this after India paid a whopping $15 Billion to Russia for design, development, CKD’s and SKD’s.

At a time when various indigenous fighter jet programs like LCA Mark 2, AMCA are struggling to get fund allocated from the Finance ministry, spending a huge amount of this magnitude on some junk fighter jet of foreign design is pure wastage of money.

So it is likely that Russia won’t transfer crucial technology of the new fighter jet making India ever dependent on it for components, spares etc even after spending a hefty $4 Billion on so called” design and development”.

In short the Russians plan is to milk India for the next 30 years, knowing fully well that she needs a 5th Generation fighter jet. The offer of “joint design and development” is just the entry point in their diabolical game plan.

Conclusion
Recent news suggest that the talks between India and Russia failed to decide on the S-400 surface-to-air missile system. India has stated that it wants to buy the next-generation air and missiles defense system but Russia wants to link the potential purchase to the PAK-FA deal.

This suggests that Russia is aware that its bear hug with respect to the PAK-FA deal may not work, so it is trying to coerce India into it using another deal.

According to India Today, New Delhi has lost confidence in the Russian T-50 PAK-FA effort after Moscow truncated its buy to about a squadron’s worth of jets. The prevailing view within the Indian air force is that if Russia—which is the senior partner—is backing out of the program, then it will be left as the sole operator of an aircraft that largely fails to meet its requirements. Instead of buying PAK-FA, Russia is planning to continue production of advanced Su-30 and Su-35 Flanker variants.

India’s own Fifth Generation Fighter project – AMCA has far better design and specifications compared to PAK-FA. In other words, the above is a Russian no-confidence vote against their own product.
If the Russians are not confident about their own product should we repose confidence in it. The answer is a simple no.

At a time when various indigenous fighter jet programs like LCA Mark 2, AMCA are struggling to get fund allocated from the Finance ministry, spending a huge amount of this magnitude on some junk fighter jet of foreign design is pure wastage of money. India’s own Fifth Generation Fighter project – AMCA has far better design and specifications compared to PAK-FA.

Its always better that we spend billions of dollars in training our own scientists and engineers in developing 5th Generation stealth fighter jet technology as it will not only strengthen our defense but also provide jobs to millions of our countrymen.

Quite rightly the Indian MoD, IAF has expressed reservations over this deal and they should now go one step further to dump it.

Note: This piece is from IDN archives, found it relevant even now as so much of noise is being made of this project but no clear headway is visible on the ground
http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2017/02/idn-archives-why-india-should-dump-fgfa.html

The Russians are patnering with UAE for joint 5gen fighter based on Mig 29, patnering with china for AHL heli, they are simply a businessman country. We should not rely on them for 5g tech but instead make it like we're doing for AMCA

 

[Shashank Sharma]

What if we partner with USA on our fifth generation aircraft AMCA?

 

[Alok Arya]

What India need from faga and what it will get is big question.
India need
1. Frequency selective radom .
2. Special RAM for canopy and and radom .
3. RAM for other external surface .
4. External shaping of air frame for stealth of .0001 msq.
5. Blending of wing .
6. Engine bay cooling for decrease ir signature .
7. Hiding of engine blade from radar by s shape or serpentine intake .
8. DSI or partition of air intake for supercruise .
9. Bubble canopy .

 

[Alok Arya]

10. On engine front
5 g scb
Blisk
High strength low temperature disc
TVC
MTBO 2000 hr
Total life of 6000 hr
11. Radar front
GaN tr module .
Steerable antenna of aesa
Range in excess of 300 km .
Widely flushed tr module for 360 coverage
Active cancellation of aircraft signature .
Integration of all sensors

 

[Alok Arya]

12. IRTS integrated with other passive and active sensors.
13. 5 gen ew suit including rwr , etos, lwr, ld , etc
These are few things India looking for , and Russia at present in developmental phase of most of these things .

 

[Alok Arya]

Even AMCA has more stealthy airframe shape than pak fa .

 

[sthf]

So in short yet another moron who is using his Mk1 eyeball to calculate RCS and I thought IDRW was horrible.

 

[Alok Arya]

So in short yet another moron who is using his Mk1 eyeball to calculate RCS and I thought IDRW was horrible.

Can you please elaborate what you want convey ?

 

[IndianHawk]

Russia and China both won't have any stealth fighter anytime soon. Even if both of them sort out all other things lack of stealth engine will make these planes pretty much any other 4.5 g plane.

No body is going to transfer significant tech to India neither Russia nor USA .

We should stop fooling ourselves with this tot thingy. Must purchase some f35 off the shelf to maintain stealth edge and sincerely invest into r&d for AMCA. That is the only logical approach.

Even for Amca we must source American engine with adequate thrust without afterburners.

Let's not live in pretense our own r&d is going to be our true asset in the long run .

 

[Srinivas_K]

There is no need to criticise Russians, but we can help the pak-fa project with the expertise gained by our partnership with Israelis and French.

Russia is strategic partner and Russia India partnership will continue in defence as well.

People should have some strategic sense before writing this kind of garbage articles.

I agree some technical aspects written in the article but I absolutely condemn this kind of attitude towards Russians.

Long live Russia India friendship!

 

[raja696]

I dont think we can dump Russians as well as usa in these matters. Russians are our leverage to demand world access we should never forget that. If we ignore either of one, hegemony will start and as a democracy we cant stand have no option but to bend our strategies in favour.

We are good to encourage both parties and its a healthy competition and our responsibility. It will fetch world to recognise our high table.

Never do such mistake to corner one. We are new united states in R&D for the world.

 

[Bornubus]

Good. Dump then new tenders and then Dump and new Tenders, testing, negotiations, advance stage negotiations and Final Negotiations.


Having said that this must be add into the long list of Russian Junk.

 

[Brood Father]

FGFA is nothing short of the fairy tale which is told to every defence enthusiast
First they said it will be twin engine PAK FA
Then they said we are buying close to 200
Then they said we are buying 144 , then 128
Then AKAntony said all the problems and concern is resolved and we will see FGFA by 2017
Now parikar said FGFA is in trouble
And behold now they say that FGFA will be entirely different from PAK FA

Are Russians really at fault in this , it's our beaurocracy and babu culture which is to be blamed and not to forget the Russian lobby
Atleast now start fresh , junk FGFA , buy PAKFA as a face saviour (Atleast we will have some fifth generation fighter which is not on paper) and invest on AMCA

Just a curiosity , is there any progress in FGFA or everything is only on design board

 

[sthf]

Can you please elaborate what you want convey ?

I was talking about the author of the article. On what basis was he calculating RCS, on which band, at what range?

Pffffff PAK FA is not stealthy.

I have been hearing this bullshit since the first flight in 2010.

 

[Alok Arya]

I was talking about the author of the article. On what basis was he calculating RCS, on which band, at what range?

Pffffff PAK FA is not stealthy.

I have been hearing this bullshit since the first flight in 2010.

I totally agree with you , article written in very bad manner . Russia was , is and will our window to world . PAK FA according to patent filled by Russia has rcs of .1 to 1 m sq in different angle . But this is also fact that Russia not taken shaping of angles and air frame which is desired for a true stealth airframe of .01 to .0001 m sq in every angle of radar exposure . Actually what India want Russia agreed but problem is at ipr and production rights . What will be the profit of investing 4 billion usd without ipr and production right . And all these media propogonda is for to convince Russia for ipr and production right . Till year end we will see both faga and s400 . And I wish s400 also come with localise production of all three type missile and high output power radar tot .

 

[no smoking]

Even AMCA has more stealthy airframe shape than pak fa .

It is really funny to compare a fighter jet MODEL to a flying fighter.

 

[Bornubus]

It is really funny to compare a fighter jet MODEL to a flying fighter.

As much funny as to equate inferior J series Chinese Junks with operational 5th Gen fighters.

 

[Tarun Kumar]

Both FGFA and J20 are fraud stealth fighters . No electronic stealth features, poor radar coverage, weak sensors let alone sensor fusion. F35 is the real deal but Americans will demand blood money for it.Best is to buy more rafales, Grippen and develop AMCA with Kaveri Snecma and rafale sensor suit. AMCA can become a stealthy rafale which would be at least 80-90% as capable as F35 and double as capable as J20/FGFA. This could well be a joint Indo-French-israeli project.

 

[Bornubus]

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