IAF to keep MiG-21 until 2019

[rock127]

The MiG 21s were to be decommissioned by 2000 and now the IAF plans to keep them till 2025? Superb! Thanks to the further delay in the finalisation of the Dassault Rafale deal, consider the expiry date to not be sooner than 2035.

It can be 3025.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

IAF >> Will allow to get pilots killed but not ever support Tejas ..

 

[fulcrum]

The first target date was 2017, which was pushed back to 2019, which again is now pushed back to 2025.. WOW.

The last MiG-21{and hence the newest} was made in 1988. Even that is now more than 25 years old.

The problem is as long as pakistan continues to operate Mirage-3, Mirage-5 and F-7, IAF will never bring itself to retire the MiG-21. Mirage-3 and F-7 junks flying across the border are neither BVR capable nor do they have HMS. They are outgunned both in BVR and WVR combat by the Bisons. Mirage-5 is an even shittier plane which doesnt even have a radar. its a ground attack plane. Only a dozen of these jets have a GROUND ATTACK RADAR, drafted into maritime STRIKE purposes. Even the JF-17's BVR capability is not fully confirmed, and it is confirmed that it doesnt have any HMS. The moment pakistan retires these 3 junks, and upgrades the JunkFighter-17, IAF will have no option but to go for the LCA.

 

[TrueSpirit]

Lets talk about the spec's of bison's , so here are the upgrade specifications of the MiG-21 Bison of IAF :

The upgrade consists of Super Kopyo X-band pulse Doppler radar and RVV-AE (AA-12 Adder) beyond visual range missiles and PGMs., new nosecone, new canopy, single-piece windshield and new canopy made of stressed acrylic composites, Sextant's TOTEM RLG-INS with NSS-100P GPS embedded GPS receivers, El-Op HUD, infrared search and track system (IRST) from Russia's URALs optical-mechanical plant, two Sextant MFD-55 LCD displays, autopilot, radar warning receivers (RWR), digital flight data recorder, new liquid air cooling system, HOTAS controls, stores management system, digital air data computer system, short range radio navigation system, new HF/VHF/UHF radios, twin conformal Vympel flare dispensers (26mm, 120 rounds) and a new electric power supply system. Reportedly the new RWR to be fitted, is an indigenous system developed by DRDO and goes by the name Tarang. A modified version of this RWR will be used aboard the Su-30MKI.

That is not all, apart from carrying the deadly AA-11 "Archer" that arms the MiG-29 and longer range AA-10 Alamo BVR AAMs, Bison pilots will have the SURA helmet mounted sight, used by Flanker pilots. Now with this combination, it would mean that the MiG-21, flying faster than all F-16 variants would "schlemm" an F-16's on the western border.

as a Mach 2 platform for launching BVR AAMs with Active Radar is what makes the MiG-21 a serious threat to almost any modern fighter.

In retrospect, it still is the good old 'Sabre era MiG' with modern fire controls, BVR missile with active-radar seeker upgrades that lived on to dogfight F -16s and Mirages. Even during Cope India 2004 in DACT many F -15 pilots did confess and say it were the dozen odd BVR capable IAF MiG-21s buzzing around at Mach 2 that gave them a real hard time. These were the modernized 'Bison' versions the IAF flies whose weapons and avionics suits coupled with their Mach 2 speed pose a serious threat to any 4th or 4.5th generation fighter

BUT I DO AGREE ITS NOT THE MACHINE BUT THE MAN BEHIND IT WHICH MAKES ALL THE DIFFERENCE

Any words on airframe strengthening ? That's the biggest concern- how many flying hours it has left ?

 

[fulcrum]

MIG-23 was a CAS aircraft and with its single engine that was structurally deficient.

The reason why MiG-23 was retired was because there were less than a 50 left overall by the time they were retired. As the numbers are less, the cost of maintenance per aircraft was more. Plus the swing wing aircraft always require significantly more maintenance than fixed wing fighters. Since we didnt get ToT on these fighters and mass produce, we had to get every spare part imported. So it was decided to retire these fighters. However after retirement, the aircrafts which were the most troublesome were stripped apart and frequently needed spares were cannibalised from it. Then its outer shell was put on display across the country. The spares were recovered to keep the MiG-23 trainer aircraft flying. So it is wront to suggest that all the MiG-23 were retired. The MiG-23 trainer is flying in the IAF, TODAY, to compliment the MiG-27 aircraft, which are just different versions of the same fighter. Thios is the story is the aircraft which were the most troublesome and the MiG-23 trainers. However for the aircrafts which were still in relatively pristine condition, IAF mothballed them for emergency use. So dont be surprised if you find the MiG-23 flying again during war times.

IAF bought 2 types of MiG-23. MiG-23BN which is a ground attack version and doesnt have a radar like the Mirage-5 and the Jaguar. And the MiG-23MF which was a fighter-interceptor, and the first fighter which gave the IAF BVR capability.

 

[AVERAGE INDIAN]

Any words on airframe strengthening ? That's the biggest concern- how many flying hours it has left ?

Indian Air Force :: The MiG-21 Bison Upgrade Programme

more info in the above link exact no of flying hours left conflicting will find and post

 

[fulcrum]

Any words on airframe strengthening ? That's the biggest concern- how many flying hours it has left ?

10-yr breather: MiG-21 can fly 1,000 hrs extra

BANGALORE: IAF can heave a sigh of relief - the life of the MiG-21 Bis has been enhanced. The entire fleet of the MiG-21 Bis, tests by National Aerospace Laboratories (NAL) have revealed, can now fly an additional 1,000 hours or effectively for another 10 years.

The results come after NAL's successful completion of full-scale fatigue testing (FSFT) on the MiG-21 Bis airframe C-2090. With this a major IAF project on the total technical life enhancement (TTLE) of the MiG-21 Bis fleet has come to an end.

With the entire MiG-21 Bis fleet of 150 aircraft approaching its maximum life-span of 2,400 hours as per original certification by Russia, IAF went for the life-enhancement test at NAL.

It flew in a MiG-21 that had completed 2,400 hours and had no fatigue cracks. The question before IAF was - how much longer could the aircraft fly?

IAF requisitioned NAL to extend MiG-21 Bis life from 2,400 hours to 4,000 hours - an additional 1,600 hours. The aircraft, however, experienced cracks and break-up after around 1,000 hours of flying.

"There was no question of further testing as the aircraft had reached its limits. But it became evident that its life could be enhanced by 1,000 flying hours," said NAL official P K Dash.

Dash further said: "What loads the aircraft experiences in flight in a whole year, we simulate on the ground in one day, checking for fatigue.

When fatigue shows up, you know that is the point up to which the aircraft can fly."The key issue in preserving structural integrity against fatigue failure, Dash said, was to get precise answers to where and when fatigue cracks would appeared in the airframe, which, if undetected in time could lead to catastrophic structural failure.

10-yr breather: MiG-21 can fly 1,000 hrs extra - Times Of India

But hold your horses, this news came out in 2006.

If you closely see the article,
"With the entire MiG-21 Bis fleet of 150 aircraft approaching its maximum life-span of 2,400 hours as per original certification by Russia, IAF went for the life-enhancement test at NAL."

So even in 2006 not all of the aircraft have approached their maximum airframe life. So lets assume the last MiG-21Bis[and its upgraded cousin the Bison] will have approached its 2400 flying hours in 2010. That means 2020 is the date for the retirement of every last MiG-21. But IAF is going to fly them for another 5 years. They must be reducing their flying hours to extend their life[or doing a second structural life enhancement which was not reported in the media - unlikely if you ask me. Ofcourse this is an assumption and maybe the fleet will have approached 2400 hours in 2012 or 2013 or 2008 rather than 2010. who knows..].

 

[rugved]

The first target date was 2017, which was pushed back to 2019, which again is now pushed back to 2025.. WOW.

The last MiG-21{and hence the newest} was made in 1988. Even that is now more than 25 years old.

The problem is as long as pakistan continues to operate Mirage-3, Mirage-5 and F-7, IAF will never bring itself to retire the MiG-21. Mirage-3 and F-7 junks flying across the border are neither BVR capable nor do they have HMS. They are outgunned both in BVR and WVR combat by the Bisons. Mirage-5 is an even shittier plane which doesnt even have a radar. its a ground attack plane. Only a dozen of these jets have a GROUND ATTACK RADAR, drafted into maritime STRIKE purposes. Even the JF-17's BVR capability is not fully confirmed, and it is confirmed that it doesnt have any HMS. The moment pakistan retires these 3 junks, and upgrades the JunkFighter-17, IAF will have no option but to go for the LCA.

What about the PLAAF? china is not pakistan. Besides, it's high time that Tejas be commissioned into the IAF else by the time it gets inducted, it will be considered as obsolete technology as per international standards.

 

[fulcrum]

What about the PLAAF? china is not pakistan. Besides, it's high time that Tejas be commissioned into the IAF else by the time it gets inducted, it will be considered as obsolete technology as per international standards.

If Indian leaders wet their pants to even face pakistan when they are constantly provoking us and occupying our heights, do you really think we have the guts to take on China? When China comes and occupies our land, our leaders will say its just a "pimple" like before and concentrate on improving economy. Afterall, the more the economy improves, the more wealth there is which they can loot and stock overseas. Fighting a war means more work for our ****** leaders and less loot.

Instead of spending money on costly toys which will never be used[read rafale], like you said, IAF should be stomped on their ass repeatedly and be given just the LCA.

 

[Abhijeet Dey]

The MiG 21s were to be decommissioned by 2000 and now the IAF plans to keep them till 2025? Superb! Thanks to the further delay in the finalisation of the Dassault Rafale deal, consider the expiry date to not be sooner than 2035.

You forgot to mention LCA Tejas.

 

[EXPERT]

Guess , we are the best in the world . Means we could fly our coffins in the air until we want .

 

[roma]

i honestly feel the entire mig21 saga and accompanying issues eg
ten-year delay in mmrca tender and evaluation, loss of pilots, flying coffins,
mismanagement of the entire issue, inability in decision-making ,

such that a set of fighter-planes acquired in 1970 is still
employed as THE BACKBONE of the airforce in 2014

all of the above are first class material
for case study in the MBA or MPA programmes
at Harvard or IIM's

it seems we have super-high standards for inducting our already proven capable LCA
coupled with super-low standards in forcing the continuation of proven flying coffins
super outdated planes

 

[drkrn]

it seems we have super-high standards for inducting our already proven capable LCA
coupled with super-low standards in forcing the continuation of proven flying coffins
super outdated planes

you made the day roma

 

[rugved]

If Indian leaders wet their pants to even face pakistan when they are constantly provoking us and occupying our heights, do you really think we have the guts to take on China? When China comes and occupies our land, our leaders will say its just a "pimple" like before and concentrate on improving economy. Afterall, the more the economy improves, the more wealth there is which they can loot and stock overseas. Fighting a war means more work for our ****** leaders and less loot.

Instead of spending money on costly toys which will never be used[read rafale], like you said, IAF should be stomped on their ass repeatedly and be given just the LCA.

We can afford to go on a full-fledged war with pakistan, going as per our current economy and military might. So our defence forces don't wet their pants on the thought of going on a war with pakistan but the Parliament does.

 

[rugved]

i honestly feel the entire mig21 saga and accompanying issues eg
ten-year delay in mmrca tender and evaluation, loss of pilots, flying coffins,
mismanagement of the entire issue, inability in decision-making ,

such that a set of fighter-planes acquired in 1970 is still
employed as THE BACKBONE of the airforce in 2014

all of the above are first class material
for case study in the MBA or MPA programmes
at Harvard or IIM's

it seems we have super-high standards for inducting our already proven capable LCA
coupled with super-low standards in forcing the continuation of proven flying coffins
super outdated planes

It's not about the complicated government and defence processes a particular international deal has to go through but it's the pace at which work is done in India. Not to mention our netas who want to act as middlemen and make a commissions/profit out of something. The current middleman for this deal is that b*****d Praful Patel.

 

[fulcrum]

We can afford to go on a full-fledged war with pakistan, going as per our current economy and military might. So our defence forces don't wet their pants on the thought of going on a war with pakistan but the Parliament does.

Who cares if the military thinks otherwise, in the end the military is subservient to the govt and obeys its orders. History will judge us as weak country, which is scared of war. It wont say military was strong and govt was weak and all that crap.. it will just record that India was a weak country which got slowly eaten up, and time and again got b!tch slapped by its much smaller and weaker neighbor using just their irregulars.

In the end the weapons wont be used to protect what its intended for. A weapon which fails to perform what its intended for makes it an useless weapon!

 

[ersakthivel]

Any words on airframe strengthening ? That's the biggest concern- how many flying hours it has left ?

Most of the problems associated with mig-21 is due to engines not with air frame.

In fact if you look at the crash data for the past decade in IAF almost an equal percentage of Mig-29s( which have two engines and newer than the Mig-21s ) also crashed along the MIgs. there are strict regulation governing air frame in IAf which wont allow unfit airframe to take to the skies.

 

[ersakthivel]

So,MiG 21 will be in service 2019,but at cost of how many pilots?

What amazes me that is,MiG 23 is better than MiG 21,but Indian Air force phased out MiG 23 instead of MiG 21?!Why,any reply?

Equal numbers of pilots also die in newer Mig-29 crashes also. Media is making as if the Mig-21s are the only pilot killers. The ones that are in service are newer ones not vintage 1964 fighters and heavily upgraded to Bison standards starting from 1993. with newer engines.

So most of the the original 874 Mig types fighters are discarded and the ones flying have healthy airframe life still left.

It is the problems with the engine and the delay in purchase of the Hawk advanced jet trainer which led to rookie pilots being put inside this unforgiving high performance fighter which was one of the biggest contributors to it's problems.

TOI always reports defence matters with a standard equal to bollywood gossip. SO nothing to be alarmed at.

if young pilots are trained well in hawk and then put on Mig-21 they will do well.

If at all IAf accepted 60 or so LCA Tejas at the TD-1 level specs in 2004 most of the MIGs would have been retired by now.

But IAF thought MIG-21s which are supgraded with heavy airframe strengthening and BVR missiles starting from 1993 are good enough to last for a decade and asked ADA to upgrade the specs of Tejas LCA to Grippen C/D level which is the root cause of the presence of Mig-21s presence in large numbers today.

But people are cleverly tying it with delay in RAFALE procurement and making it as if the GOI is killing young pilots by not buying RAFALE.

If you have any doubt the last year or the year before the crash rate for IAF was equal to international standards after a detailed fleet maintenance review was carried out by IAf and HAL jointly.

The Mig-21 fleet flew safely in that year.

 

[ersakthivel]

It might last the first week of combat, but then they will all be grounded. How many flight hours are left on these frames, probably in the hundreds.

got any proof of the flight hours left in remaining in Mig-21s? Who told you they will all be grounded after first week of combat?

can you say the same about remaining Mirage fighters in french Airforce?

If IAf Mirage-2000s which are more than two decades old and being upgraded at a cost of 40 million a plane , and good enough to serve till 2030 , then why are you questioning the Bison upgrade program which did the same for Bisons?

 

[ersakthivel]

What about the PLAAF? china is not pakistan. Besides, it's high time that Tejas be commissioned into the IAF else by the time it gets inducted, it will be considered as obsolete technology as per international standards.

can you specify the international standards please?