IAF to buy 14 Tejas squadrons

ersakthivel

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Some people can never change,

First they kept repeatedly quoting the 8 per annum production figure as set in stone kind of gospel and kept on arguing that tejas is at most a tech demo production only,

then when HAL has said that it can produce close to twenty once FOC is achieved and need for higher production arises , they kept silent for a while,

Silence is golden when it comes to tejas,

,many people who kept on claiming that tejas has drag issue which makes it unable to cross sound barrier in sea level without the nose cone extension suggested by CEMILAC are quite after reading the super sonic at all altitude statement on release to service IOC-2 document,

People claimed that it's air inlet starves the engine and that is the reason it is stuck at 20 deg AOA for eons are now silent after reading the document which states AOA achieved 24 deg,

And even the altitude (50000 ft )and top speed (mach 1.6)figures are not final.

In the tarmak 007 live chat Suneet krishna clearly said ,"we have achieved mach 1.6 at 50000 ft altitude for IOC-2 ".people who claimed it can't go beyond mach 1.4 are silent now,

What ever production time table drawn by HAL is tailored to the IAf's 40 mk-1 and 80 odd mk-2 order,

now MOD is setting the ball rolling by announcing repeatedly there will be more than 200 plus tejas in IAF alone.

And reworking production targets is not a herculean task once the intent is made concrete. FOC will be the date to wach out for firm numbers,

because after that no one in IAf can say no to MOD'd request to change all old Migs with tejas mk-2 and mk-1.

Only statements that are true about tejas till now are from test pilots, all other so called pundit predictions have turned out to be false.

It was the naval test pilot Mao who explicitly told karthik the Br poster in aeroindia 2013 that mk-1 itself can meet all IAF requirement and mk-2 is for navy.

today it has become true. Tejas may go to 28 deg AOA in mk-1 FOC itself as per suneet krishna's statement.

So we will have to wait and till FOC to see most other so called pundit bogus predictions blown to dust as afar as tejas numbers are concerned.

With billion dollar indian private firms ready to join the tejas race at short notice, ramping up production depends upon the expression of intent from IAF.

ofcourse IAF will take all the sweet time. like they did in revising the AMCA specs three times wasting a decade in the process and pushing india down a decade behind the chinese in stealth race,(now they are crying hoarse that FGFA ia s dud as well, then how is the russian airforce inducting an even more of a dud called PAKFA?)

USAF has inducted more than 100 f-35s which are even less sure of the ASR performance than the tejas, But IAF is setting too much store in RAFALE deal , and will end up regretting it later.

Only a new non UPA govt can make IAf see the light of the day.

 
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Jagdish58

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To Upgrade Mirage-2000 Per plane it will cost 45 Million USD, Brand new tejas will cost 34 Million:frusty: . They could have gone with ADA-HAL upgrade on Mirage-2000 similar to Jaguar & later replaced the Aircraft with Tejas-Mk2 or FGFA

And single Rafale will cost 120Million - 140 Million USD . With Tejas Mk2 with all improvements will not cost more than 45 Million which will be in Par with Rafale in many parametre

Lack of commonsense , No country will become stronger with borrowed power

 

happy

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@ersakthivel your knowledge of Tejas is astounding. I have been following your comments in Shukla's blog as well and it is a vast depth of info. Hats Off to you bro !! Keep up the good work. I have learned many things just through your posts. Thank You !!
 
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ersakthivel

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@ersakthivel your knowledge of Tejas is astounding. I have been following your comments in Shukla's blog as well and it is a vast depth of info. Hats Off to you bro !! Keep up the good work. I have learned many things just through your posts. Thank You !!
But a few guys call me nationalistic tripe, and complement me with comments like this!!!!!!

. These IT walas only know cut-copy-paste because that is their preferred mode of production . They think "The IAF should order Tejas in large numbers", "why are we upgrading mirages instead of ordering 1400 Tejas" and "we should produce 50 Tejas annually" while unable to comprehend the critically low squadron strength levels circa 2018-2019 post retirement of Bahadurs and absolute lack of production capacity in Indian aeronautical industry at sub-vendor levels where considerable amount of hand holding and spoon feeding is required by HAL+DRDO/ADA to get them on their feet. Th

If we want to ramp up numbers in 2018 , time to act is now, Why is IAf twiddling its fingers with 40 + 80 order for tejas mk-1 and mk-2?

No RAFALE productionline is going to chug along before 2019 to add another line of production to compliment the decreasing numbers.

Even if RAFALE orders are confirmed now , A new production line should be set up to produce twelve an year.

So why can't a second line of production set up before 2019 for tejas to add another 20 to the existing 20 from HAL?

It is the IAF-MOD combine that needs to give early large order confirmation not ADA - HAL combo,

Only then HAL-ADA combo can spoon feed or bucket feed private sub vendors for tejas, If IAF keeps looking on rafale and shows no intention of backing 14 squadron tejas fleet then indian aviation industry will forever be polio stricken.

because RAFALE production is just going to be screw driver TOT , with an engine that is more than twenty years old in tech. It adds a big zero to our local production know how.

The french airforce chief boldly recommends RAFLE to US navy since F-35 is getting delayed, Will our IAF chief also do the same by recommending tejas mk-2 in place of RAFLAE , since it will give him a fleet thrice more in capcacity in the crucial air defence mode?

If people don't know how to scale up production , they can read up on production engineering books,

Once a confirmed order is received production is all about sheduling with in time inventories,There is no dearth of engineers or funds or experiences with regard to production of tejas.

People don't have to write arabian nights stories about production.

First people taunted the HAL 8 fighter per annum!!!! what the hell?, without even knowing IAF had given only a 40 tejas mk-1 commitment and even IOC-2 was not obtained when the 8 fighter per year figure was quoted,

Then after IOC-1 HAL has said it can scale up to 16-20 per year,At that time IAF has given only 120 plus numbers order for tejas mk-1 and mk-2.

Now MOD is firmly giving indications of 14 squadrons of tejas , SO what on earth stops HAL from doubling production?

All that is needed is another 1000 cr investment (private or HAL) on a new assembly line and advance engine order shedule along with orders for avionics vendors.

Why can't it be done? In these dull recessionary days who is complaining about extra orders and difficulty in meeting the orders?

people are just looking for avenues to increase production and save their production lines,

With RIL, mahindra and TATA showing extra ordinary willingness and commitment towards indian aerospace sector, Won't HAL be able to mentor them to set up a production line , once FOC for mk-1 is over .

these line can be stream lined to come in to production mode just on the FOC of tejas mk-2, So the moment tejas mk-2 gets FOC we can reach 40 plus tejas mk-2 production capacity,

All engine and avionics order can be sheduled according to that date,And a 40 plus a year production line can chug along for many years since tejas mk-2 will surely win a few hundred export orders after 2020 , and LIFT concept will also help the lines to move along in future.

By the time if initiatives are correctly taken tejas mk-3 with 5th gen stealth can also enter production.Just now MOD has given in writting an intention of 14 tejas squads.So no one can simply discount those numbers comparing it with old 8 per annum figure from HAL in a juvenile manner!!!!
 
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happy

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But a few guys call me nationalistic tripe, and complement me with comments like this!!!!!!
As far as Tejas is considered, I think DFI is indebted to you !! As the saying goes, "Dogs bark" !!
 

ersakthivel

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Will swiss airforce junk its grippen NG(tejas mk-2 equivalent ) and go for RAFALE instead? killing their own aviation industry for a few hundred Km extra range given by RAFALE? It is like seling your hand to buy bread.

Why are EU countries hell bent upon keeping their aviation industry alive and kicking with massive TYPHOON orders?

Strategic need. The same need which made chinese say NO to PAKFA Jv with russia and strike out on their own with J-20 and J-31, irrespective of the capability difference.The chinese could have got item-30 engine along with PAKFA , why did they say no to the prospect?

Why no one is advocating this line of argument?

Can't people see what 300 orders number for tejas will do indian aviation industry?

it will sow the seed for it to become a forex earner instead of forex bleeder,

And we can invest a massive amount of money and manpower in K-10 development ,

knowing we have 300 plus tejas and a few hundred plus AMCAs to feed, It will make a compelling proposition for any engine major to enter into JV with GTRE,thus accelerating the growth of indian aviation industry many fold.

IAf should understand that only a robust indian mil aviation sector will help it grow into a force,

that can counter the combined might of PAf-PLAF. not 6 squadrons of imported RAFALE.

So time to set priorities with long term aims , not short term few hundred Km extra range with a couple of tons of extra weapon loads.
 
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ersakthivel

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if squadron numbers are going to fall to critical levels in 2018-19, what should we do?

Trying to get another production line with 20 tejas mk-1 or mk-2 going within three years or waiting for the rafale deal to materialize for ever?

Even if we get the rafale deal , we need to set up another production line immediately. So why not it be a new tejas production line instead?

Strange logic to spend 45 million dollar a piece on upgrading decades old mirages which will have a much shorter life span than new tejas mk-1 ,

and technologically below the level of tejas mk-1 to keep them flying for another decade,

in place of getting another production line and ordering one or two more squadron of tejas mk-1 as an immediate stop gap measure
 
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rahulrds1

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Developmental cost of Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), Tejas is Rs.7965.56 Crore ($1.09 Billion)including building of 15 aircraft and creation of infrastructure for production . This compares with the developmental cost of JAS 39 NG Grippen is $1.80 Billion for developing 5 Proto Vehicles.

Production cost as well as life cycle cost of LCA Tejas will be comparatively lower to that of any other comparable class of aircraft.

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in a written reply to Shri S Thangavelu in Rajya Sabha today(12-Feb-2014).
source : -Press Information Bureau,Government of India,Ministry of Defense
Print Release
 
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RajeevKr

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Development Cost breakup

Increase in Operational Cost of Tejas LCA
Initial Operational Clearance (IOC-1) for Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), Tejas has already been obtained in January 2011. Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) are working towards meeting planned schedules for IOC-2 by end of 2013 and Final Operational Clearance (FOC) by end of 2014 to make Tejas fully combat worthy.

Project Definition Phase (PDP) for development of LCA was sanctioned in August 1983 at a cost of Rs. 560 Cr. After completion of PDP, Full Scale Engineering Development (FSED) Programme Phase-I was sanctioned in April 1993 at a cost of Rs. 2188 Cr (including PDP cost Rs. 560 Cr) with increased scope. FSED Programme Phase-I was successfully completed in March 2004 and technology was demonstrated. FSED Programme Phase-II was sanctioned in November 2001 at a cost of Rs. 3301.78 Cr to build 3 prototypes, 8 Limited Series Production (LSP) aircraft and establish infrastructure for producing 8 aircraft per year. Additional sanction of Rs. 2475.78 Cr was given to meet the financial requirements of FSED Programme Phase-II for induction into Indian Air Force by obtaining IOC and FOC. The total sanctioned cost for development of LCA, Tejas (PDP + FSED Phase-I + FSED Phase-II) is Rs. 7965.56 Cr.

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in a written reply to Shri S. Thangavelu in Rajya Sabha today.
 

brahmastra11

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Where is the figure of operational cost or increase of operational cost figures in this post ?

Did you compare equivalent fighter jet development cost and per unit cost ?

Development Cost breakup

Increase in Operational Cost of Tejas LCA
Initial Operational Clearance (IOC-1) for Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), Tejas has already been obtained in January 2011. Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) are working towards meeting planned schedules for IOC-2 by end of 2013 and Final Operational Clearance (FOC) by end of 2014 to make Tejas fully combat worthy.

Project Definition Phase (PDP) for development of LCA was sanctioned in August 1983 at a cost of Rs. 560 Cr. After completion of PDP, Full Scale Engineering Development (FSED) Programme Phase-I was sanctioned in April 1993 at a cost of Rs. 2188 Cr (including PDP cost Rs. 560 Cr) with increased scope. FSED Programme Phase-I was successfully completed in March 2004 and technology was demonstrated. FSED Programme Phase-II was sanctioned in November 2001 at a cost of Rs. 3301.78 Cr to build 3 prototypes, 8 Limited Series Production (LSP) aircraft and establish infrastructure for producing 8 aircraft per year. Additional sanction of Rs. 2475.78 Cr was given to meet the financial requirements of FSED Programme Phase-II for induction into Indian Air Force by obtaining IOC and FOC. The total sanctioned cost for development of LCA, Tejas (PDP + FSED Phase-I + FSED Phase-II) is Rs. 7965.56 Cr.

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in a written reply to Shri S. Thangavelu in Rajya Sabha today.
 

RajeevKr

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Where is the figure of operational cost or increase of operational cost figures in this post ?

Did you compare equivalent fighter jet development cost and per unit cost ?
I have just quoted the press release, was not able to post the link. Every word is from the press release only, I have not added anything from my side. "pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelease.aspx?relid=97831"
 
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RajeevKr

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Since motive has been assigned to author of article without any mention of the context under which this reply was given by Mr. AKA, I decided to dig deeper and came up with following info. The question which was put forward to DM is quoted hereunder
"Modernisation of IAF

3078. SHRI DHARMENDRA
YADAV:
SHRI ANANDRAO ADSUL:
Will the Minister of DEFENCE
be pleased to state:
(a) whether the projects to indigenously
develop fighter aircraft are much behind
the schedule;
(b) if so, the details thereof along with
the steps taken by the Government to
complete these projects expeditiously and
to provide adequate number of aircraft for
operational preparedness of the Indian Air
Force (IAF);
(c) whether most of the aircraft in the
inventory of IAF require immediate
upgradation or replacement; and
(d) if so, the details thereof and the action
taken thereon in this regard?"​

I am unable to find the exact reply to this question as it is not updated on the website of "Lok Sabha". However I was able to find the press release note which is quoted hereunder

" Press Information Bureau
Government of India
Ministry of Defence
10-February-2014 13:51 IST
Modernisation of IAF

There have been delays in the indigenous development of Light Combat Aircraft (LCA-Tejas) and the Project to co-develop Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA). The LCA has attained Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) on 20th December, 2013 paving its way to induction into IAF. In the FGFA project the PD phase has been completed in June, 2013.

The MiG-21 and MiG-27 aircrafts of the IAF have already been upgraded and currently equip 14 combat squadrons. These aircraft, however, are planned for being phased out over the next few years and will be replaced by the LCA. Steps have been initiated for upgradation of other fighter aircrafts like MiG-29, Jaguar, Mirage-2000; transport aircraft like AN-32 and Mi-17/Mi-17 IV helicopters.

This information was given by Minister of State for Defence Shri Jitendra Singh in a written reply to Shri Dharmendra Yadav and Shri Anandrao Adsul in Lok Sabha today. "​

A simple reading of this will make it clear that to maintain operational preparedness of the Indian Air Force at present, GOI is mainly banking upon LCA and FGFA. It furthers stresses the fact that 14 squadrons of Mig-21 and Mig-27 will be replaced by LCA over next few years.
 

Jagdish58

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Historical day :thumb:

LCA TD-1 First flight

LCA TD-2 First flight
 
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Jagdish58

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in actual life things are not always fair.
Yes you are right :thumb: but banking on home grown fighter rather than going for expensive toys abroad is foolish

No country will provide you 100% TOT be it Rafale , Su-30MKI or any they will hold something or the other to use as bargain tool:thumb:

If Kaveri was up and running LCA would have become different ball game altogether :hail:
 

sayareakd

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Yes you are right :thumb: but banking on home grown fighter rather than going for expensive toys abroad is foolish

No country will provide you 100% TOT be it Rafale , Su-30MKI or any they will hold something or the other to use as bargain tool:thumb:

If Kaveri was up and running LCA would have become different ball game altogether :hail:
if that happen they will come running offering their engine tech to us. Like what happen in case of supercomputers.
 

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