How USSR prevented a joint US-UK attack on India in 1971

[Varahamihira]

I cannot make up my mind if anybody can be a natural ally. Being a conservative man I just pick my own self as my best ally.

But you are perhaps forgetting that Bangabandu was killed with his family on August 15, 1975. And the fact that the Americans were meddling in south-east asia (right flank of Akand Bharat) till well into the 90s. So you know who sent that message and who controlled the things around these parts. The Naxals came in supported by the Chinese, who had in 69 had their own coming out party, thanks to Nixon. Bhai sahab, you probably need to re-assess what difficulties the unknown soldiers really have faced.

It is somewhat sad to see that you don't actually think much of India. I seriously doubt if we ever acted like Vassals. Even when India was contributing foot soldiers for the wars that the Raj fought around the world, we had enough people within the armed forces who knew which side their loyalty lay. But I guess its par for the course since sadder still is, how again that same situation of contributing foot soldiers is seen as advanced thing to do.

Good thing is you remember PVNR. But how can you forget that the same PVNR tried his level best to keep the west out of Indian economy. IMF those days used to prescribe a hundred solutions to India. All of which were simply allowed to rot by that wily man. OTOH the Russians ended up following that very 'shock therapy' prescriptions and ended up nearly dead. Chinese too have done their level best to keep the west out of their local economies. They probably understood PVNR better.

When good number of decision making parliamentarians were under the rolls of Soviets what would you call it?The saying goes even the PM was bribed heavily.
PVNR might be many a things before economic reforms,it can't be denied that we are following the policies and creating new ones based on then Govt's initiatives.

It doesn't matter who the person is,whether Bangabandhu or Homi Bhaba,if allies or non allies think they are in their way their story ends.

If Americans were "natural allies" instead of Soviets what do you think Russians would've done with Bangabandhu?
I don't see any difference between Russia or America.We just have to use them both.

There are no permanent friends or enemies.There are only permanent interests.

 

[Yumdoot]

When good number of decision making parliamentarians were under the rolls of Soviets what would you call it?The saying goes even the PM was bribed heavily.
<>
There are no permanent friends or enemies.There are only permanent interests.

Interesting that you mention Bhabha. Why did you shy away from making the mention in its proper context?

You are so casual about our history that you probably never ever lined up the events in a chronology to see what the hell was happening. And you seem to have no open questions in your books. Don't these unresolved questions force you to look for answers? Or do you just tend to seek vote on queries - truth is what most people say it is and what is written in the books. At least my hint of August 15, 1975 fell flat on its face and so did my attempt at hinting at LBS's death.

Anyhow. Look at it like this, probably it would help you.

Soviets wanted Indira to succeed. I won't deny that they may have funded her. She was after all convicted for having won her own seat by using "government civil servants and equipment during the campaign for the 1971". An election she & her party actually won by a landslide. Actually I suspect they may have and I personally don't mind it. I would actually have asked the Soviets to fund her considering she was the only real nationalist back then. Off course that funding would be bribing. But hell I am an Indian bribing is corruption for me only if the context is corrupt .

August 15, 1975 was the date of the reckoning for Bangladesh not for India. For India it was just a message. That message had a context. That context actually started in 59-60 period, with the geopolitical changes.

The Americans knew that Chinese wanted both the Tibet and the Nukes.

Chinese knew Indians ('Hindoos' actually) were thick in Tibet.

And that they could get the nukes in only 3 ways - Soviets, US, Self-effort. Soviets admit that they had supplied the parts for gaseous diffusion plant but they admit they did not help start it. US declassified documents admit that the Chinese did not have enough resources for tests. Still the Chinese went on to successfully test a series of nukes.

Till 62 the US needed Nehru to verify what was happening in Lop Nur (Trust But Verify). Around the time of their initial nuke tests the Chinese actually take up arms against the Soviets in a major standoff.

After 64 Nehru was a definite liability for them. Nehru too sensed that and died a bitter man. After all he was betrayed by the people who had installed him and even his imagined improvement in

LBS saw all this. LBS knew India had to do something for itself. Those days a crazy little party with a seemingly anachronistic saffron agenda just presented a 'silly' resolution in parliament, for India to go nuclear. This party was as odd as Kejri would be in any sane society, only in the reverse direction. The resolution fell through but despite that LBS went ahead and instructed Bhabha to start on the nuke project. LBS was in the thick of Defence 5 Year Plans too. "Jai Jawan and Jai Kisan" had this serious effort as its context. The defence budget had been increased post 62 but systems take time to spool up and the serious 5 year planning for defence preparedness started only in 1964. The Americans knew with the Soviet and Chinese experience that with these 5 year plannings the poorer countries could actually go about setting things right for themselves esp. in the matters of armament.

Both these guys (LBS & Bhabha) went ahead and tested the US system, by asking for some material help. They got some got refused a lot more - that is to say the Americans effectively said they were not interested and India was a munna who could not be relied upon with such things. There was a big debate started right after Chic-1 in the American establishment and as is ususally the case with debates, this debate too was already fixed. NPT was to be rolled out to halt Germany, Japan and India. Everybody knew Germany and Japan were pointed out only as a deflection. Real target was India. Because by now Chinese had both 'their' Tibet and 'their' Nukes and Americans had seen how crazy things could be made for Soviets. (Nixon when he was abusing Indira was merely 'feeling entitled'. Indira had robbed him of his comfort zone). Unfortunately LBS and Bhabha 'died' within a month of each other. Just before dying, LBS had inaugurated a Plutonium Reprocessing Plant at Trombay. That confirmed it LBS was now an out-casta. He must go and somebody needed to 'teach a lesson' to India.

That somebody was Ayub Khan. 1965 war happened. Pakis were supplied with weapons - with half the weapons supplied by US and half of the weapons supplied by China. US imagined that old western stuff in Indian hands was not good enough for the latest goldplated stuff they would be supplying to Pakis. China supplied the bulk. Ummah was turned against India - Saudis, Indonesia everybody. LBS killed off this attempt against India - by mere tack of enlarging the fight but not allowing others to enlarge the war. If you care enough you will find the name of the cook who gave LBS the jar of water before LBS retired for sleep. Ok let us just presume you are too lazy for that - the cook was an Uzbek Muslim who wanted to help the Islami takat of Pakistan. After LBS it did not matter what the Russians did with that cook. That cook was allowed to go free. India had lost at the negotiating table what India had won in a justified war. Russians had no interest in India at that time.

But the nuke establishment was well on its way to be the real guarantor of Indian security by now. Congress chose Indira as its leader. Somebody thought that was not a good idea and opposed Indira. Somebody else thought that was a good idea and supported Indira. Indira decided to do away with friendship/alignment with the west, that the west had already long discarded. So in came in Russian help but only marginally as was thought fit by the leadership of India at that time. The leadership of India of those times decided collectively to support Indira. Indira had seen the fate of her own father with whom she was close. She off course knew the fate of LBS. She knew the real history of India, between 47 & 67, like nobody else. Anybody claiming to be better informed is just lying. India after 64 was not needed by the west. They had China a much more vigorous chamcha. But nobody can deny the privileges that a pliant leadership in India brings for the interventionist. So the west was very much there. West had never gone away. 1947 was just a jhunjhuna for the masses. The west ruled India through the Bombay Plan. Bombay Plan was floated by industrialists who had benefited from the WW-2 war production. And you know that is how West propped up Nehru all through his years. But now Indira was a bothersome case for the Bombay Planners and their masters. She could not be relied upon. India effectively became a case of Indira vs. West. The poor economic situation had tied Indira's hands. But an angry woman is a force few people understand much less withstand. Indira could not be frightened. Quite to the contrary she upped the ante by successfully challenging the opposition within India. Actually Chinese and Pakis too had not gone away at any time. Pu Laldenga was visiting the East Pakistan like it was his sasural. Pakis were very successful in north east. India had to do the unthinkable of bombing its own people using its airforce. This was in 1966 after the Pakis had lost the war. The Naxal movement was started by the Chinese in 1967. This too was beaten back by Congressis of that time. This too was witnessed by Indira. She knew she had to rise to the challenge of Chi-Pakis in India's East and North-East too.

This Indira decided to do by supporting the Bengali language movement. In those parts the language is an integral part of culture unlike in north India where people have moved from Sanskritized Hindi to Urudufied Filmy Hindi to English in a short span of 3 generations. She understood the culture of India like nobody. Coincidently the Pakis had not taken their lessons of 65 seriously. They thought they could just get away with support from the West and Chinese. They too upped the ante by starting a very Secular Genocide. Secular because initially they killed both HIndus and Muslims, basically whoever stood for Bengali asmita. Then they got into the ghazi act when they could not control Mujeeb. They began focusing on Hindus. Refugees started pouring in. Pakis had lost it. Indira again decided to meet the challenge and we all know how she did it. After her win in the battlefield she again threw the peace gauntlet. Pakis again refused. Thank god for these Pakis. They have enabled the Hindus of India to consolidate like never before.

West was still there. The opposition had united by 1971 and it was Garibi Hatao vs. Indira Hatao. Much like it is today with Modi Vikaas vs. Anti-Modi.

However the western investment in the 1965 war was beginning to pay off too. Famines, non-cooperation by Industrialists and the Oil Crisis of 73 had caused major problems for Indira. By 1973 the very country that had given Indira a landslide victory in 1971 had major dharnas against her just like the Patel Reservation movement today by another nobody. Gujarat which was intimately linked with the Bombay State faced student's movement in 1974 and Congress leadership there had to resign and President's Rule had to be imposed. Indira knew the West had made its move. She went for the nuke test. She knew after this neither the West nor the Chinese nor the Pakis, would ever try to go against India even if the West were to succeed against her personally. So she was now not bound by the fate of India. She could look after her own political interests just like everybody else around the world.

Coincidently one Morarjee Desai was ousted by Indira in 69 from Finance ministry. Morarjee was also the Chief Minister of Bombay State at one point. This guy was not a bitter opposition to Indira. He was an insider too and supported by the west. The just after the student's movement in Gujarat a Magsaysay Awardee started a movement for Sampoorn Kranti (sounds like Sampoorn Vyavastha Parivartan of Anna Hazare). Anyhow this Magsaysay Awardee for Public Service (a Gandhian) gave rise to the Kejriwals of that time. And Morarjee of became the business end in Delhi-ki-gaddi, for all these Kejris. Much later this Morarjee was accused of being a CIA agent by an author and that author was challenged in a US Court. The court upheld the author's views and heirs of this Morarjee thought it fit not to appeal .

Ok now, this calls for emergency since there is now a foreign hand involved . That odd party of 1964 too had matured was hungry for electoral success. They too were in the thick of action but not as seriously since they had no real masters. They also wanted to get closer to the moneybags too since the moneybags had lost their patrons in Congress. These maskharas got some sound beating too. But these guys were practical people, they just took some beating and came back with more seats and all of these guys enjoyed the party in true Filmy style.

This Anna oops Magsaysay Awardee led movement ground to a halt in infighting. West did not care. Their interest was in helping the Chinese. Indians of the JP andolan, were used condom for them.

Anyhow the larger context was still India and India again returned Indira to power, again by thumping majority. So the Bombay Club was again fatherless. You cannot fool all the people all the time. Indira knew she had to make up with the Bombay club too. After all they were Indian and under too much undue pressure and were leaderless (aka maleable/negotiable). She tried to correct the past policies in 1980 about the time one Deng Xiaoping was also doing it for China. But there is one major difference between the position of Indira of 1980 and Deng Xiaoping of 1978. Deng had the western money with him. While the western money was ranged against Indira. Coincidently Deng Xiaoping had a major role in setting up the Pro-Western stance in China and was also involved intimately in the Lop Nur Tests. Deng was also the only factor in similarly invading and needling the Vietnam as the chinese prior to him had done to India. Vietnam too stood the test of time just like India. My respect for them arises from this similarity.

Russians who had supported Indira all through were also trying to make amends by trying some form of private ownership. So Indira had support of the Russians too in trying a policy change. Indira was not successful for much the same reasons as were faced by the Russians. Both countries were in weaker political positions and only had rudimentary entrepreneurial capabilities and were facing the might of the West. Russians were facing the west all over the world. India was facing the West in the form of Pakistan and China.

Hope that last para helps some here, in clearing up the cobwebs in their mind about Russians holding us back from our economic progress. Russians do not have any economic relevance to India. They were interested in the strategic relevance of India.

 

[Varahamihira]

Interesting that you mention Bhabha. Why did you shy away from making the mention in its proper context?

You are so casual about our history that you probably never ever lined up the events in a chronology to see what the hell was happening. And you seem to have no open questions in your books. Don't these unresolved questions force you to look for answers? Or do you just tend to seek vote on queries - truth is what most people say it is and what is written in the books. At least my hint of August 15, 1975 fell flat on its face and so did my attempt at hinting at LBS's death.

Anyhow. Look at it like this, probably it would help you.

Soviets wanted Indira to succeed. I won't deny that they may have funded her. She was after all convicted for having won her own seat by using "government civil servants and equipment during the campaign for the 1971". An election she & her party actually won by a landslide. Actually I suspect they may have and I personally don't mind it. I would actually have asked the Soviets to fund her considering she was the only real nationalist back then. Off course that funding would be bribing. But hell I am an Indian bribing is corruption for me only if the context is corrupt .

August 15, 1975 was the date of the reckoning for Bangladesh not for India. For India it was just a message. That message had a context. That context actually started in 59-60 period, with the geopolitical changes.

The Americans knew that Chinese wanted both the Tibet and the Nukes.

Chinese knew Indians ('Hindoos' actually) were thick in Tibet.

And that they could get the nukes in only 3 ways - Soviets, US, Self-effort. Soviets admit that they had supplied the parts for gaseous diffusion plant but they admit they did not help start it. US declassified documents admit that the Chinese did not have enough resources for tests. Still the Chinese went on to successfully test a series of nukes.

Till 62 the US needed Nehru to verify what was happening in Lop Nur (Trust But Verify). Around the time of their initial nuke tests the Chinese actually take up arms against the Soviets in a major standoff.

After 64 Nehru was a definite liability for them. Nehru too sensed that and died a bitter man. After all he was betrayed by the people who had installed him and even his imagined improvement in

LBS saw all this. LBS knew India had to do something for itself. Those days a crazy little party with a seemingly anachronistic saffron agenda just presented a 'silly' resolution in parliament, for India to go nuclear. This party was as odd as Kejri would be in any sane society, only in the reverse direction. The resolution fell through but despite that LBS went ahead and instructed Bhabha to start on the nuke project. LBS was in the thick of Defence 5 Year Plans too. "Jai Jawan and Jai Kisan" had this serious effort as its context. The defence budget had been increased post 62 but systems take time to spool up and the serious 5 year planning for defence preparedness started only in 1964. The Americans knew with the Soviet and Chinese experience that with these 5 year plannings the poorer countries could actually go about setting things right for themselves esp. in the matters of armament.

Both these guys (LBS & Bhabha) went ahead and tested the US system, by asking for some material help. They got some got refused a lot more - that is to say the Americans effectively said they were not interested and India was a munna who could not be relied upon with such things. There was a big debate started right after Chic-1 in the American establishment and as is ususally the case with debates, this debate too was already fixed. NPT was to be rolled out to halt Germany, Japan and India. Everybody knew Germany and Japan were pointed out only as a deflection. Real target was India. Because by now Chinese had both 'their' Tibet and 'their' Nukes and Americans had seen how crazy things could be made for Soviets. (Nixon when he was abusing Indira was merely 'feeling entitled'. Indira had robbed him of his comfort zone). Unfortunately LBS and Bhabha 'died' within a month of each other. Just before dying, LBS had inaugurated a Plutonium Reprocessing Plant at Trombay. That confirmed it LBS was now an out-casta. He must go and somebody needed to 'teach a lesson' to India.

That somebody was Ayub Khan. 1965 war happened. Pakis were supplied with weapons - with half the weapons supplied by US and half of the weapons supplied by China. US imagined that old western stuff in Indian hands was not good enough for the latest goldplated stuff they would be supplying to Pakis. China supplied the bulk. Ummah was turned against India - Saudis, Indonesia everybody. LBS killed off this attempt against India - by mere tack of enlarging the fight but not allowing others to enlarge the war. If you care enough you will find the name of the cook who gave LBS the jar of water before LBS retired for sleep. Ok let us just presume you are too lazy for that - the cook was an Uzbek Muslim who wanted to help the Islami takat of Pakistan. After LBS it did not matter what the Russians did with that cook. That cook was allowed to go free. India had lost at the negotiating table what India had won in a justified war. Russians had no interest in India at that time.

But the nuke establishment was well on its way to be the real guarantor of Indian security by now. Congress chose Indira as its leader. Somebody thought that was not a good idea and opposed Indira. Somebody else thought that was a good idea and supported Indira. Indira decided to do away with friendship/alignment with the west, that the west had already long discarded. So in came in Russian help but only marginally as was thought fit by the leadership of India at that time. The leadership of India of those times decided collectively to support Indira. Indira had seen the fate of her own father with whom she was close. She off course knew the fate of LBS. She knew the real history of India, between 47 & 67, like nobody else. Anybody claiming to be better informed is just lying. India after 64 was not needed by the west. They had China a much more vigorous chamcha. But nobody can deny the privileges that a pliant leadership in India brings for the interventionist. So the west was very much there. West had never gone away. 1947 was just a jhunjhuna for the masses. The west ruled India through the Bombay Plan. Bombay Plan was floated by industrialists who had benefited from the WW-2 war production. And you know that is how West propped up Nehru all through his years. But now Indira was a bothersome case for the Bombay Planners and their masters. She could not be relied upon. India effectively became a case of Indira vs. West. The poor economic situation had tied Indira's hands. But an angry woman is a force few people understand much less withstand. Indira could not be frightened. Quite to the contrary she upped the ante by successfully challenging the opposition within India. Actually Chinese and Pakis too had not gone away at any time. Pu Laldenga was visiting the East Pakistan like it was his sasural. Pakis were very successful in north east. India had to do the unthinkable of bombing its own people using its airforce. This was in 1966 after the Pakis had lost the war. The Naxal movement was started by the Chinese in 1967. This too was beaten back by Congressis of that time. This too was witnessed by Indira. She knew she had to rise to the challenge of Chi-Pakis in India's East and North-East too.

This Indira decided to do by supporting the Bengali language movement. In those parts the language is an integral part of culture unlike in north India where people have moved from Sanskritized Hindi to Urudufied Filmy Hindi to English in a short span of 3 generations. She understood the culture of India like nobody. Coincidently the Pakis had not taken their lessons of 65 seriously. They thought they could just get away with support from the West and Chinese. They too upped the ante by starting a very Secular Genocide. Secular because initially they killed both HIndus and Muslims, basically whoever stood for Bengali asmita. Then they got into the ghazi act when they could not control Mujeeb. They began focusing on Hindus. Refugees started pouring in. Pakis had lost it. Indira again decided to meet the challenge and we all know how she did it. After her win in the battlefield she again threw the peace gauntlet. Pakis again refused. Thank god for these Pakis. They have enabled the Hindus of India to consolidate like never before.

West was still there. The opposition had united by 1971 and it was Garibi Hatao vs. Indira Hatao. Much like it is today with Modi Vikaas vs. Anti-Modi.

However the western investment in the 1965 war was beginning to pay off too. Famines, non-cooperation by Industrialists and the Oil Crisis of 73 had caused major problems for Indira. By 1973 the very country that had given Indira a landslide victory in 1971 had major dharnas against her. Gujarat which was intimately linked with the Bombay State faced student's movement in 1974 and Congress leadership there had to resign and President's Rule had to be imposed. Indira knew the West had made its move. She went for the nuke test. She knew after this neither the West nor the Chinese nor the Pakis, would ever try to go against India even if the West were to succeed against her personally. So she was now not bound by the fate of India. She could look after her own political interests just like everybody else around the world.

Coincidently one Morarjee Desai was ousted by Indira in 69 from Finance ministry. Morarjee was also the Chief Minister of Bombay State at one point. This guy was not a bitter opposition to Indira. He was an insider too and supported by the west. The just after the student's movement in Gujarat a Magsaysay Awardee started a movement for Sampoorn Kranti (sounds like Sampoorn Vyavastha Parivartan of Anna Hazare). Anyhow this Magsaysay Awardee for Public Service (a Gandhian) gave rise to the Kejriwals of that time. And Morarjee of became the business end in Delhi-ki-gaddi, for all these Kejris. Much later this Morarjee was accused of being a CIA agent by an author and that author was challenged in a US Court. The court upheld the author's views and heirs of this Morarjee thought it fit not to appeal .

Ok now, this calls for emergency since there is now a foreign hand involved . That odd party of 64 too had matured was hungry for electoral success. They too were in the thick of action but not as seriously since they had no real masters. They also wanted to get closer to the moneybags too since the moneybags had lost their patrons in Congress. These maskharas got some sound beating too. But these guys were practical people, they just took some beating and came back with more seats and all of these guys enjoyed the party in true Filmy style.

This Anna oops Magsaysay Awardee led movement ground to a halt in infighting. West did not care. Their interest was in helping the Chinese. Indians of the JP andolan, were used condom for them.

Anyhow the larger context was still India and India again returned Indira to power, again by thumping majority. So the Bombay Club was again fatherless. You cannot fool all the people all the time. Indira knew she had to make up with the Bombay club too. After all they were Indian and under too much undue pressure and were leaderless (aka maleable/negotiable). She tried to correct the past policies in 1978 about the time one Deng Xiaoping was also doing it for China. But there is one major difference between the position of Indira of 1978 and Deng Xiaoping of 1978. Deng had the western money with him. While the western money was ranged against Indira. Coincidently Deng Xiaoping had a major role in setting up the Pro-Western stance in China and was also involved intimately in the Lop Nur Tests. Deng was also the only factor in similarly invading and needling the Vietnam as the chinese prior to him had done to India. Vietnam too stood the test of time just like India. My respect for them arises from this similarity.

Russians who had supported Indira all through were also trying to make amends by trying some form of private ownership. So Indira had support of the Russians too in trying a policy change. Indira was not successful for much the same reasons as were faced by the Russians. Both countries were in weaker political positions and only had rudimentary entrepreneurial capabilities and were facing the might of the West. Russians were facing the west all over the world. India was facing the West in the form of Pakistan and China.

Hope that last para helps some here, in clearing up the cobwebs in their mind about Russians holding us back from our economic progress. Russians do not have any economic relevance to India. They were interested in the strategic relevance of India.

You seem to be not getting my point.
in Geo-Politics there are no permanent friends or enemies,only permanent interests matter.
Just like many theaters India was/is a theater to these two super powers.For Russia it wants a permanent customer to sell it's arms and is not willing to give TOT on critical technologies like SU30 MKI.India is a Golden Goose to them.Same goes to US/Israel,everyone wants a permanent customer but won't part with critical technologies until they get something extremely valuable in return(which never happened and it seems will never happen).

In your last para you said about rudimentary entrepreneurial capabilities and weaker political positions.If your entrepreneurial capabilities are limited then instead of sticking with a country with same disabilities why not explore other options i.e. engage everyone that can meet your needs and demands(fortunately Modiji is on it ).

In short what I'm trying to say is neither America,Russia nor Israel have any brotherly love for India.They are looking out for their interests and we should do the same.

 

[Mad Indian]

Like who Rahul or Kejri.

Its sad that the only choices for the govt as of now are between half p***** and full p******

And frankly it reflects more on the loser mentality of Indians. I know many here might find this provactive but it is the truth

 

[Mad Indian]

Prior to 69 India was virtually an undeclared ally of the West. And was barely better treated than Pakis.

Nope. not true. India started the NAM precisely against the west, as west was trying to create an anti communist block

India during those times went to the west for everything. Like hell - Everything means everything. Got kicked in the ass for everything - Subs, nukes, planes, guns, food, oil, strategic security. And got kicked the door at its face nearly every time. And on top of that the Soviets really pulled all stops for nearly all of those things. Nehru was a western plant and he died a heart broken man.

What nonsense. Do you know how much aid US and other western countries like Canada provided during the first few years of our Independence. The wheat US provided for free during the famines?Seriously you might hate the west but give due respect where it is due.

Hell even in 1962, Kennedy offered US assistance which Chacha moron declined.

Also, have you forgotten the nuclear power plants set up by the west here?

Actually the Pakis were since Jinnah days very keen on having the benefits of lying at the crossroads in Asia. Jinnah imagined, every country would be willing to deal with the Pakis because of the strategic location of Pakistan between a west dominated India and Russians to the north. He probably thought that the Pakis would be a king maker in the region even if they would not be the king themselves. IOW even the Pakis realized that India was dominated by the west.

Come on dude. Dont write rubbish The "strategic value" you are talking about is mostly due to the POK. If Nehru moron had not been such a retard and had not lost the POK, the strategic value of Pak would have been meaningless as a simliar role could easily have been provided by India, and that too in a much better way. .ie access to Central Asia and Warm water port for USSR.

 

[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

Nope. not true. India started the NAM precisely against the west, as west was trying to create an anti communist block



What nonsense. Do you know how much aid US and other western countries like Canada provided during the first few years of our Independence. The wheat US provided for free during the famines?Seriously you might hate the west but give due respect where it is due.

Hell even in 1962, Kennedy offered US assistance which Chacha moron declined.

Also, have you forgotten the nuclear power plants set up by the west here?




Come on dude. Dont write rubbish The "strategic value" you are talking about is mostly due to the POK. If Nehru moron had not been such a retard and had not lost the POK, the strategic value of Pak would have been meaningless as a simliar role could easily have been provided by India, and that too in a much better way. .ie access to Central Asia and Warm water port for USSR.

Do you really think warm water port after passing through the hell hole of central asia and kashmir would make any economic sense?

 

[Mad Indian]

Do you really think warm water port after passing through the hell hole of central asia and kashmir would make any economic sense?

It would not, but it would make strategic sense. Besides, that is what the "strategic importance" of Pakistan is anyway as claimed by our excuse givers.

Seriously, no moron in their right mind would choose Porkis over India if given a choice wrt to alliance/ties.

West initially tried to get India under them but Nehru gave them a cold shoulder. Only after that did they ally with Pakis.

But to be fair, the Chacha moron was of the opinion that Socialism is the next best thing and that USSR was the next big thing in the world as Capitalist empires were crumbling at that time(British, French, Dutch, so on). Besides, if you remember, USSR also experienced some good temperory economic growth at that time. And US was seen as an extension of British imperialism. He was too clever by half when he chose USSR over USA. This is what happened.

Anyway, while I appreciate what USSR did for us, we should be under no delusion that it was all 100% pure token of friendship or any such BS. USSR helped us for its own national interests and USA helped Pakis for the same. There is absolutely nothing we owe any of them anything now . We should do the exact same thing- act in our pure self interests

 

[Mad Indian]

Chinese too have done their level best to keep the west out of their local economies. They probably understood PVNR better.

China is a much more open economy than India ever was. I dont know what you mean here

 

[Rowdy]

Can we please stop with this nostalgia.... I mean ... really ... russia is not soviet union.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

It is shameful that a nation India's size needs help from a nation five times smaller in population. And then we debate about it . How two little bullies came and threatened us and another little bully protected us.

 

[pmaitra]

Forgot Tashkent in the context of 1965. We lost our PM and Hajipir.

Is this your response to this question below?

Kya kissed Soviet Ass. What did Soviets get out of us?

@Sakal Gharelu Ustad, There is not an iota of logic in your statement. Remember this?

Replaced logic with rhetoric now!!

___________________________________________________________

Hajipir should have been retained like strategic heights in Siachen glacier. But thanks to USSR, we now take a 200km detour to connect Poonch and Uri!!

Again, not an iota of logic, just unadulterated rhetoric.

What would USSR gain by having Haji Pir pass under Pakistani control? I know you cannot answer this question. Some more non-sequitur or conspiracy theories would not surprise me.
___________________________________________________________

Putting the Haji Pir loss solely on the doorsteps of Soviets. Well I can speak only for myself and I don't find that convincing enough.

Blaming the USSR for Haji Pir pass is just another randomly concocted narrative. No evidence, no motive, no argument offered.
___________________________________________________________

Prior to 69 India was virtually an undeclared ally of the West.

Pakistan has been a member of SEATO since 1954, so there is no reason to believe India was an undeclared ally of the West prior to 1969. Again, this is another logic defying claim.

India was truly neutral. Even Yugoslavia, despite being a communist nation, refused to be a member of the Warsaw Pact. Rather, it chose to be with NAM. NAM had a stated aim to not be part of either of the two blocs.
___________________________________________________________

Hell even in 1962, Kennedy offered US assistance which Chacha moron declined.

Utter drivel.

Nehru asked Kennedy for help, but Kennedy was unable to give aid without Congressional approval. The US Defence Secretary raised objection as they did not want to lose Pakistan as an ally. The aid that Nehru asked for never came.

 

[Yumdoot]

You seem to be not getting my point.
in Geo-Politics there are no permanent friends or enemies,only permanent interests matter.
Just like many theaters India was/is a theater to these two super powers.For Russia it wants a permanent customer to sell it's arms and is not willing to give TOT on critical technologies like SU30 MKI.India is a Golden Goose to them.Same goes to US/Israel,everyone wants a permanent customer but won't part with critical technologies until they get something extremely valuable in return(which never happened and it seems will never happen).

Actually this point is not yours. This has been on the 5 odd forums on the net and twitter and Facebook for nearly 10 years now. You are merely repeating it. And its wrong.

It is mostly repeated ad nauseam by people who draw their salaries from the US dependent businesses or are seeking H-1B for their wards. They are merely being faithful to their employers. Unfortunately for them about 125 Crore people don't share their lives. They have a different future.

Regards Su30MKI tech you probably have not been following up on the news. As much of the tech as India had agreed for was supplied a long long time back. IIRC then by parts we are aiming to make 87% of Su-30MKI in India. Ultimately you have to learn to be a good negotiator and also to live with what you have negotiated for.

India negotiated well for the Nuke sub and we got it.

In your last para you said about rudimentary entrepreneurial capabilities and weaker political positions.If your entrepreneurial capabilities are limited then instead of sticking with a country with same disabilities why not explore other options i.e. engage everyone that can meet your needs and demands(fortunately Modiji is on it ).

The rudimentary entrepreneurial capabilities referred to the position in the 50s/60s/70s. Not today.

Beside US saps all entrepreneurial capabilities. Check out the statuses of their allies who have worked on the paradigm of pragmatic-national-interest.

In short what I'm trying to say is neither America,Russia nor Israel have any brotherly love for India.They are looking out for their interests and we should do the same.

That again is a mere repetition.

Even the champions of Trust but Verify have lost their followers like anything. Though I admit they have gained some more Salaried dependents. But that changes nothing in the over all context. Because all the salaried dependents can only occupy one 14 inch screen in SM or 29 inch if in MSM. That 14/29 inch screen is the limitation designed by god into this system. And truth just has to flash every once in a while in these dark spots.

..................................................

Nope. not true. India started the NAM precisely against the west, as west was trying to create an anti communist block

And India knew that we had already been sucked dry in two World Wars, in just this sort of bloc creation exercises. Do you contest that?

The wheat US provided for free during the famines?Seriously you might hate the west but give due respect where it is due.

Sir ji, is that where this angst comes from. .
Sorry but they deserve nothing. If you believe that to be true then perhaps you first need to re-read your history. We were in those famines precisely because of the West.

As we had made ourselves independent form the West we actually ended up with food surpluses.

Even prior to the famines that were the creation of the West and its incessant warring, we had food surpluses in nearly all the princely states. 700+ years of Aurangzeb-panthi also could not run us dry. Something the West was able to do in 150 years flat.

Your feeling of gratitude may be completely misplaced.

Hell even in 1962, Kennedy offered US assistance which Chacha moron declined.

Americans were two timing Nehru. And Nehru, being a Not-Sardar (in the same vein as our Not-India neighbour) could never guess what bit him when he lost both Tibet then 62 and finally the race for the Nukes. Not just the aid did not come, as pointed out by @pmaitra it was never meant to be coming. Quite to the contrary the support for the Tibetan cause was to be stabbed in the back, as a deal to ultimately get the Chinese to stab the Russians, in the back.

IIRC, Nehru too wanted nukes but being an unsure intrepid guy he ended up with nothing. Unfortunately for the west, Indira was a first hand witness to her father's failings and failures. Like a good daughter she merely tried to provide a keel to her near defunct family. We Indians benefited from her Durga Act, ultimately.

One priceless advice - TIFWyouthinkIW - Be careful, while dealing with womanfolk .

Also, have you forgotten the nuclear power plants set up by the west here?

Even the smallish Iranians have more sense of self-respect than you.

Iranians have just forced 5 past+current+future super-powers to pass them a nuke deal.

You probably did not understand what is happening. We don't need Nuke plants. We can make ours just as easily. We needed a Liability clause and we needed ENR - in the first we again compromised and the second is not coming. I may as well add 'ever'. Jor ka jhataka dheere se - just preparing you for next round of fact check.

Come on dude. Dont write rubbish The "strategic value" you are talking about is mostly due to the POK. If Nehru moron had not been such a retard and had not lost the POK, the strategic value of Pak would have been meaningless as a simliar role could easily have been provided by India, and that too in a much better way. .ie access to Central Asia and Warm water port for USSR.

Well only Pakis can be the best witness to what Jinnah used to say. Bolo yaaron. Didn't your leadership believe that Pakis have a much better Strategic location on the geopolitical map.

China is a much more open economy than India ever was. I dont know what you mean here

China even today cannot be cracked by nearly any entrepreneur from almost anywhere.

If the big brands - Apple, Car manufacturers is your idea of entrepreneurship , then and only then, I concede, yes China is open to entrepreneurs. And even these are copied within China like anything.

But to bring you upto the speed. Entrepreneurship starts, not from the Gurgaon styled malls/cafe/boutiques, Medanta and CLU-Licencing games. And India has been doing a lot to dismantle that very school of thought lately.

.......................................................


@pmaitra My cut-off period, for the post independence Congress leadership, abandoning its umblical cord to the west was the last request for nuke umbrella and the blow back to the Bombay Plan businessmen.

IIRC and I remember this very clearly the last request was sent in by Indira through her emissaries, Mr. L. K. Jha and Sarabhai, in 1967. There were several prior to this last one. My guess is Indira too wanted to test out the Americans just one last time and do that first hand, instead of relying on the LBS/JLN experience. I respect her choice. Today if we have a nuke deal in our hands it is mostly due to Indira.

 

[pmaitra]

@pmaitra My cut-off period, for the post independence Congress leadership, abandoning its umblical cord to the west was the last request for nuke umbrella and the blow back to the Bombay Plan businessmen.

IIRC and I remember this very clearly the last request was sent in by Indira through her emissaries, Mr. L. K. Jha and Sarabhai, in 1967. There were several prior to this last one. My guess is Indira too wanted to test out the Americans just one last time and do that first hand, instead of relying on the LBS/JLN experience. I respect her choice. Today if we have a nuke deal in our hands it is mostly due to Indira.

You might as well be right, so I will not contest what you wrote.

Now, coming to these claims about US wheat being free, when was it?

There was one case in the 50s, when India was facing the prospect of a famine, Nehru asked for wheat from the US, and was refused. Then Nehru asked for wheat on a loan, following which the US dragged it feet. Then, Nikita Khrushchyov told Nehru that he will deliver wheat to India for free.

Added screenshots from book: India After Gandhi: The History of the World's Largest Democracy

There is a very detailed description of all that happened prior to this wheat from the USSR. It has been posted already, but a certain member prefers not to read anything and continues to replicate his conjured up fiction repeatedly.

 

[rock127]

It is shameful that a nation India's size needs help from a nation five times smaller in population. And then we debate about it . How two little bullies came and threatened us and another little bully protected us.

This is what I was going to say in a nutshell.

Why a country of 1.25 Billion needs some other country much smaller for it's so much support.We should be stand alone Pole in this world which supports others.

First that crappy Mogul Rule and then British sucked our blood.We can learn lot of things from our own huge mistakes and history and the first is not singing "peace" songs all the time or else some Momahad Gauri would breach in exploiting our quest for Peace.

Let's keep the Anti-national/Sickular/Commies TURDS out and give our country a chance to breath in.

 

[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

Is this your response to this question below?

@Sakal Gharelu Ustad, There is not an iota of logic in your statement. Remember this?

___________________________________________________________


Again, not an iota of logic, just unadulterated rhetoric.

What would USSR gain by having Haji Pir pass under Pakistani control? I know you cannot answer this question. Some more non-sequitur or conspiracy theories would not surprise me.
___________________________________________________________

Blaming the USSR for Haji Pir pass is just another randomly concocted narrative. No evidence, no motive, no argument offered.
___________________________________________________________

So LBS died without any reason and no further inquiries were held to find out. USSR was trying to play neutral rather than an ally in all post-war negotiations. Everyone else on this thread got the idea except you.

Yes, it is part of conspiracy theory, but since GoI does not make the old documents public, there is no way to put such theories to rest. Given that India went with strong position to the negotiating table, the end result was almost frustrating. And hence the conspiracies.

 

[Yumdoot]

No it is not a part of Conspiracy Theory else GoI would have said its a conspiracy theory.

PMO has instead said - "could lead to harming of foreign relations, cause disruption in the country and cause breach of parliamentary privileges".

Sir this is the truth after the GoI has already considered the facts. And having considered the facts come to the conclusion that the fcuking mess is too much for India to handle. Please note both UPAs and NDAs have arrived at similar conclusions. But you keep using the one hammer you have on the million nails you see.

USSR was not the ally of India in 65. But US was the butt-attached ally of Pakistan in 65. Search around for Ahmet Sattarov and you will get your answers as to what could "cause disruption in the country". Presuming you want to reach answers. Ahmet Sattarov and his staff was arrested by KGB but allowed to go just before the enquiry commission was formed. After all that happened on the night of signing of the Tashkent Declaration, where the signatures of Indian PM were needed by somebody, the next day the Indian PM conveniently died. You have to read how useless the declaration was for India and how important the declaration was for Ayub's survival.

Then you have to guess why Indira choose the framework of the Shimla Declaration which is in stark contrast to the Tashkant declaration. Then also you will get why Indira stopped short before trifurcating/multifurcating West Pakistan too. She did not want to lose at the negotiating table what she had gained on the battlefield. Something that lasted till Sharm-al-shiekh.

 

[Varahamihira]

Actually this point is not yours. This has been on the 5 odd forums on the net and twitter and Facebook for nearly 10 years now. You are merely repeating it. And its wrong.

It is mostly repeated ad nauseam by people who draw their salaries from the US dependent businesses or are seeking H-1B for their wards. They are merely being faithful to their employers. Unfortunately for them about 125 Crore people don't share their lives. They have a different future.

Regards Su30MKI tech you probably have not been following up on the news. As much of the tech as India had agreed for was supplied a long long time back. IIRC then by parts we are aiming to make 87% of Su-30MKI in India. Ultimately you have to learn to be a good negotiator and also to live with what you have negotiated for.

India negotiated well for the Nuke sub and we got it.

I don't know what's been said in other 5 forums(I don't know them).
It's simple business logic.You don't burn your business relationships(It includes strategic relationship too).You lean where you make profits.You have to be aligned and non-aligned depending on your interests.

If Russia has passed that much technology on Su30MKI we wouldn't be making them under license.If Russia passed that much technology we wouldn't be upgrading it to Super Sukhoi.We would have upgraded to our own Super Duper Sukhoi.Has that happened? No.I'm not discounting whatever tech they parted with but they need a Golden Goose.And any sane country don't kill their Golden Goose.

Let me tell you no country will part with their critical technology.Russia won't give you technology that surpasses them.Every country follows this dictum.

The rudimentary entrepreneurial capabilities referred to the position in the 50s/60s/70s. Not today.

Beside US saps all entrepreneurial capabilities. Check out the statuses of their allies who have worked on the paradigm of pragmatic-national-interest.

As I said we should have engaged with everyone including US.You don't sit on their laps that includes Russia,Israel,etc.but get things done that meets your needs and demands.You followed Soviets socialism what happened,you were almost bankrupt.

That again is a mere repetition.

Even the champions of Trust but Verify have lost their followers like anything. Though I admit they have gained some more Salaried dependents. But that changes nothing in the over all context. Because all the salaried dependents can only occupy one 14 inch screen in SM or 29 inch if in MSM. That 14/29 inch screen is the limitation designed by god into this system. And truth just has to flash every once in a while in these dark spots.

It's simple business logic.
I forgot who said this,Russian deputy PM or their Ambassador.He said if Russia sold weapons to India's enemies you spit on me.They were already selling weapons to China since decades and he made that statement.Now news is they are discussing on selling Su35 and military helos with Pakistan.SO what is Russia doing here? Simple business logic.Profits.

 

[Yumdoot]

@Varahamihira thanks for taking time off to write all that. Helps me to consolidate my own thought process.

Lets first just agree that "Russia won't give you technology that surpasses them" because they don't yet have it. Being essentially impossible to do. Having said that yes you are right the Russians had held back on what they considered critical IPR in esp. the engine. Which considering your business world analogy would be prudent on their part. Even we Indians should do that whenever we get our chances, because that is how the world works.

But you really cannot take the business derived wisdom in too deep, into the strategic world. You see Russians are richer than us Indians, much more secure than us and they can afford to spend like 83 billion USD on their defence. Our defence budget is about half of that. All of their budget is financed by their oil earnings of which they have like 100 years worth of supply. So bringing in Profits as a motive does not sound convincing.

Typically even allied nations hold back cutting edge tech. US too does that to UK of all countries. Even if all of NRIs start to crawl in US and all of Indians start to crawl in Chanakyapuri (US mission), in support of alignment with US, we all will still fall short of the relationship that US has with UK. Still there is more tech that US holds back from UK than it gives to UK. Same for Chinese and Pakis. Same for US and Israel.

I personally do not mind somebody holding back. For me that is just the cost of transaction, something I am willing to pay. My concern is about what I am getting in return. The contours of Indian support to Russians was - PVNR sponsored bailout package for Russians in lieu of (with benefit of hindsight) Su-30MKI and Nuke Subs and perhaps the intel on the US satellites overflying Pokhran. That was definitely costly but still not as costly as we were about to commit again for Rafale alone. You can rest assured and perhaps you already know, the American supplies will not be coming at any lesser a price. They are masters of gold-plating. On top of that Americans agree to supply only the items that we ourselves are on the verge of completing on our own strength.

Off course you go ahead and negotiate. But first prepare your negotiating strength. The negotiating strength comes from options esp. of the indigenous kind. Not from salivating over what we do not have.

Anyways my effort is not even about the negotiations. My effort was to put sequence of events within their context. There were simply too many 'Sab mile hue hain' posts in the thread. Somebody had to reply.

 

[Mad Indian]

Even the smallish Iranians have more sense of self-respect than you.

Iranians have just forced 5 past+current+future super-powers to pass them a nuke deal.

You probably did not understand what is happening. We don't need Nuke plants. We can make ours just as easily. We needed a Liability clause and we needed ENR - in the first we again compromised and the second is not coming. I may as well add 'ever'. Jor ka jhataka dheere se - just preparing you for next round of fact check.

You are sounding like a child with special needs.

I said west helped India too initially till India started to get close to the USSR . You claimed India didn't get anything front he west. That's what I questioned and you were wrong.

Instead you have changed the subject to nuclear deal and other bull shit.

China even today cannot be cracked by nearly any entrepreneur from almost anywhere.

If the big brands - Apple, Car manufacturers is your idea of entrepreneurship , then and only then, I concede, yes China is open to entrepreneurs. And even these are copied within China like anything.

But to bring you upto the speed. Entrepreneurship starts, not from the Gurgaon styled malls/cafe/boutiques, Medanta and CLU-Licencing games. And India has been doing a lot to dismantle that very school of thought lately.

Again stop writing BS. You said China is not open to west. I just pointed out it is more open to west than india. You can justify your bull shit all you want but your statement is just ridiculous

There is a very detailed description of all that happened prior to this wheat from the USSR. It has been posted already, but a certain member prefers not to read anything and continues to replicate his conjured up fiction repeatedly.

Normally, I would just ignore your stupid posts but I will make it an exception this time since you seem to be writing more bs than can be tolerated.

Yumdoot claimed India got nothing from west. That's what I countered. Whether USSR gave wheat or not is irrelevant as the point I was addressing was only if India got anything from west or not. Are you going to deny the food aid USA gave or the intital power plants and other stuff which the west helped us out with? If not stop writing bs.

 

[Mad Indian]

Sir ji, is that where this angst comes from. .
Sorry but they deserve nothing. If you believe that to be true then perhaps you first need to re-read your history. We were in those famines precisely because of the West.

As we had made ourselves independent form the West we actually ended up with food surpluses.

Even prior to the famines that were the creation of the West and its incessant warring, we had food surpluses in nearly all the princely states. 700+ years of Aurangzeb-panthi also could not run us dry. Something the West was able to do in 150 years flat.

Your feeling of gratitude may be completely misplaced.

Oh for fucks sake USA had nothing to do with Indian poverty. I didn't think I was wasting time with children

You made a stupid claim that west (meaning USA ) don't help India. It did help India. Being more Russians than Russians themselves, you are unable to see this issue objectively as an Indian in an Indian POV. For gods sake get some self respect.

And India knew that we had already been sucked dry in two World Wars, in just this sort of bloc creation exercises. Do you contest that?

Do you contest my point that NAM was primarily anti west?

Well only Pakis can be the best witness to what Jinnah used to say. Bolo yaaron. Didn't your leadership believe that Pakis have a much better Strategic location on the geopolitical map.

Its painful to even read this stupid statement. Of course Pakistan is "NOW" more strategically located than India. Pakistan offers access to central Asia. Does India? This is thanks to the retard Nehru . that's what I was saying too. Seriously? Understand what others are saying before typing bs