Hindustan Trainer HTT-40

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by Coalmine, Feb 7, 2013.

  1. Coalmine

    Coalmine Regular Member

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    Will induct indigenous HTT 40 planes in large numbers: IAF chief

    [​IMG]

    Indian Air Force will induct indigenous HTT 40 basic trainers in “large numbers”, which will boost the domestic capability although it was earlier keen for a Swiss aircraft.

    The country was looking at having a fighter aircraft under ‘Make in India’ initiative which will be a “big ticket project”, IAF chief Air Chief Marshal Raha said at a seminar on Thursday.

    Talking about the opportunities in the aviation sector, especially for domestic companies, he said, “IAF will induct HTT 40 basic trainers in large numbers soon”.

    Defence sources said the IAF has committed to purchasing at least 70 of these aircraft.

    The Hindustan Turbo Trainer-40 (HTT-40) had on May 31 made its maiden flight after much delay.

    The aircraft, the prototype of which was rolled out in January, is aimed at being used for the first stage training of all flying cadets of the three services.

    While the HTT-40 programme was almost junked during UPA rule, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar pursued both IAF and HAL to ensure development of the trainer.

    IAF had blocked funding for the HTT-40 by telling the Defence Ministry that the aircraft would be “too expensive, heavy and that it will not meet their need”.

    IAF had backed a Swiss trainer, the Pilatus PC-7 Mark II.

    The Air Force had purchased 75 of Pilatus in 2012 under a controversial deal but the requirement was for over 106 more planes.

    Parrikar had cut this down and cleared a plan to purchase another 38 of Pilatus aircraft. However, the contract is still stuck on pricing issues.

    Raha also said maintenance and rehaul facilities of aircraft and its engines is still in infancy in India and it needs to grow. He said the private sector should get into it.

    The IAF chief reminded those present at the seminar that there is a lot of opportunities because of the legacy of aircraft that the force operates.

    http://indianexpress.com/article/in...40-planes-in-large-numbers-iaf-chief-3007990/
     
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  3. LTE-TDD

    LTE-TDD Regular Member

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    Haha, great HAL!

    Please enter a message with at least 30 characters.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 14, 2017
  4. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    doo doo doo, another HAL bites the dust.
     
  5. Coalmine

    Coalmine Regular Member

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    Guys is there any response from Hal. Hal may develop on there own for H&D

    Trishul blog reporting that HAL intends to use Pratt and Whitney PT6 engines.
     
  6. mikhail

    mikhail Senior Member Senior Member

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    at least they are trying their level best in developing state of the art arms and weaponry for the Indian Armed Forces!thats what really matters!
     
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  7. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    It is time to tell the DRDO that they have to wake up and smell the coffee and quit acting like public sector lumbering white elephants ordered to be humoured!
     
  8. Blackwater

    Blackwater Veteran Member Veteran Member

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    Both HAL and DRDO should be fully or partially privatise
     
  9. Rahul Singh

    Rahul Singh Senior Member Senior Member

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    Not undertaking HTT-40 project forward will mean repeating same HTT-35---> HPT-32--->Pilatus-7MKII story all over again.

    We all know that trainers are not like fighters and they wear far quickly than frontline fighters, especially the BPT kind. And in organization like IAF (which trains around 500 pilots yearly with each recording over 60 hours on BPT) it is like 30000 hours divided by 100 (maximum possible operational BPTs in IAF at any time) equals to 300 hours on each BPT per year. Now add to it routine test flights (flown for the purpose of system validation after routine maintenance and occasional breakdowns) in addition to number of hours flown by instructors for training new instructor trainees.

    For what i can estimate, BPT's life expectancy is not much more than 20-25 years in general. And even if PC-7 MKII is advance, it will surely require life extension upgrade (possibly including engine replacement) after 20 years. Since they are SWIS made, HAL is out of equation. So who will IAF go for upgrade? Surely Pilatus? Considering high labor cost as one of many cost escalating reasons, one can easily estimate how much MILKING ( you heard it twice, don't you) IAF will do then of tax payer's sack?

    In contrast, if HTT-40 is given go ahead even as a slow 10 year project then by that time (20-22 years from now) IAF would at least have an option of buying a new BPT in place of old PC-7 MKIIs -- requiring heavy up-gradation-- which might just turn out be costlier (in terms of money spent for gaining X hours of air frame life).
     
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  10. Rahul Singh

    Rahul Singh Senior Member Senior Member

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    Not undertaking HTT-40 project forward will mean repeating same HTT-35---> HPT-32--->Pilatus-7MKII story all over again.

    We all know that trainers are not like fighters and they wear far quickly than frontline fighters, especially the BPT kind. And in organization like IAF (which trains around 500 pilots yearly with each recording over 60 hours on BPT) it is like 30000 hours divided by 100 (maximum possible operational BPTs in IAF at any time) equals to 300 hours on each BPT per year. Now add to it routine test flights (flown for the purpose of system validation after routine maintenance and occasional breakdowns) in addition to number of hours flown by instructors for training new instructor trainees.

    For what i can estimate, BPT's life expectancy is not much more than 20-25 years in general. And even if PC-7 MKII is advance, it will surely require life extension upgrade (possibly including engine replacement) after 20 years. Since they are SWIS made, HAL is out of equation. So who will IAF go for upgrade? Surely Pilatus? Considering high labor cost as one of many cost escalating reasons, one can easily estimate how much MILKING ( you heard it twice, don't you) IAF will do then of tax payer's sack?

    In contrast, if HTT-40 is given go ahead even as a slow 10 year project then by that time (20-22 years from now) IAF would at least have an option of buying a new BPT in place of old PC-7 MKIIs -- requiring heavy up-gradation-- which might just turn out be costlier (in terms of money spent for gaining X hours of air frame life).
     
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  11. Twinblade

    Twinblade Senior Member Senior Member

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    http://www.business-standard.com/article/economy-policy/iaf-diluted-al-least-12-benchmarks-for-trainer-aircraft-113072901068_1.html

    Different standards for domestic and imported products. Haven't we heard this before.
     
  12. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    What I have noticed with arms procurement:
    • Requirements remain unheard of for years, and they suddenly pop-up the moment a foreign made item is available.
    • Quite surprisingly, the capabilities of that foreign made item closely matches the requirements.
    • A cavalcade of "experts" throng defense sites, and scratch each others' backs while promoting these foreign items.
     
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  13. Twinblade

    Twinblade Senior Member Senior Member

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    What particularly irks me is the audacity and impunity with which these differential standards are maintained. Agreed that product lifecycle support is something that domestic suppliers are not particularly known for, but there has to be a level playing field to compete on.
     
  14. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    I would be a bit more radical. The moment a new requirement pops up out of nowhere, the persons involved are shown the door or demoted. My message to these "experts" would be: "If you do not have foresight, get back to the level of a sepoy."
     
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  15. rvjpheonix

    rvjpheonix Regular Member

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    @Twinblade can the HTT 40 complete all the requirements of the new ASQR?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 10, 2015
  16. Decklander

    Decklander New Member

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    This is the standard procedure of IAF. They make unrealistic PSQRs for HAL which are difficult to comply with and then go to MOD to ask for imports. That is what they did in the case of LCA and that is what they have done for AMCA and this trainer. It is all a game of bribes and nothing else. You might recall when this deal was signed, this deal was a thanks giving to swiss authorities to help Italian waitress hide her swiss money and to deny providing details of the people who held accounts in the swiss banks before 2010.
     
  17. Twinblade

    Twinblade Senior Member Senior Member

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    Its a product under development. Maybe it can, maybe it can't, maybe its a piece of crap, maybe it can do 20G negative loops while blasting Auld Lang Syne from megaphones, but that's not the issue at hand. If you maintain stiff procurement guidelines for one set of suppliers while diluting the guidelines for another set beyond what can be considered in good faith, its a case of straightforward malevolent behaviour.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 10, 2015
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  18. sob

    sob Moderator Moderator

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    Basically there are two important questions that come to my mind immediately on reading this article

    1.What I would like to know, was HAL given the same set of revised ASQR and what was their reaction to it??

    2. What is the time frame from HAL to deliver the trainer to IAF??

    The second point is very important and probably has a bearing on the decision.
     
  19. TrueSpirit

    TrueSpirit Senior Member Senior Member

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    Forget It....Trace my IP if you can
    But Sir, the MMRCA requirement & evaluation was a genuine one, right ? HAL could not have offered the platform with capabilities that IAF needs, in a reasonable timeframe...
     
  20. Decklander

    Decklander New Member

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    If only IAF had not made unrealistic PSQRs for LCA way back in 1983, we wud not have had the need to import MMRCA. We cud have the LCA and than modified/evolved it to suit whichever role we needed it to perform.
     
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  21. navkapu

    navkapu Regular Member

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    This is so correct I support you completely, Would like to add "Tanks are destroyed by RPG & IED" we need to induct arms and keep developing and evolving..... awesomely put there are so many incidences where imported arms have not worked ...... we should think......... let the soldiers evolve these arms not babus .... thats what Israel has Done....
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2013

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