Govt set to clear 40,000-strong force along China border

[DivineHeretic]

Pray tell me what can three divisions do in mountains ?
Cold start ?

India would probably cold start with 6 divisions plus ?

China would do cold start when nine division plus sitting in defenses against them with three divisions ?

Then wait for thirty days for additional troops to build up ?

What cold start is that ?

Though it is fears but nuances are not clear

INDIA FEARS CHINA MAY COPYCAT ITS MILITARY DOCTRINE | idrw.org

I was talking about the number of divisions China might build up before launching a thrust. Please note that atleast 3 divisions ( and one Airborne division) exist which can be deployed to TAR within 24 hours of notice, and for all practical purposes may be stated to be in TAR itself. in addition, several units already based in Tibet. The 3 divisions I talked about are in addition to these units.
I'll post the divisions and army group that are within 24 hr notice deployment to China.

And why can't three divisions launch an assault? Three divisions are a huge number, especially when attacking with the element of surprise and impressive CAS.
A Chinese version of the CSD is very much possible ( though with much more limited speed and power)

And just think for a moment.....China will face 9 mountain divisions spread over a 4000km front, while the Indians will face 3 divisons in three (4/5?) thrusts along narrow fronts. Who has the advantage now?

This is similar to the CSD, building up a localised superiority in firepower and troops and launching hard thrusts while the other elements move to the borders . No reason why the Chinese cant.

If you think this is impossible, the CSD envisaged by the IA is even more suicidal. 8 IBGs (no bigger than a division each ) against 25-30 odd Pakistani divisons....its not the overall number that counts but the localised superiority in CSD.

Amd btw, the Chinese will be inducting as much as a division a day. They wont be waiting until day 30 for the whole army to mobilise. They will be reinforcing faster than the IA can btw.

 

[SinghSher1984]

panagarh is way too away from tar.how come they go on offensive if they are placed too away

Will give short answers from my POV to keep post shorter:
1. More than one obv. deterannce to naxal belt, controls illegal bengalis, scares NE, conterweight to Burma and SE. Also GHQ which is also further away and needs to be in safe area.

NEW DELHI: The Cabinet committee on security (CCS) could soon grant approval to the Army's proposal to raise a mountain strike corps along the China border.


The strike corps is expected to cost Rs 62,000 crore spread over the entire 12th Plan (2012-17).

The Army has proposed a mountain strike corps, two independent infantry brigades and two independent armoured brigades to plug its operational gaps along the entire line of actual control (LAC) with China, as well as to acquire offensive capabilities.


Even as India plays catch up, China has built aggressive military and infrastructure capabilities. It has at least five fully-operational airbases, an extensive rail network and over 58,000-km of roads along the Indian border. This would allow China to move over 30 divisions (each with over 15,000 soldiers) to the LAC, outnumbering Indian forces by at least 3:1 there.

Govt set to clear 40,000-strong force along China border - The Times of India

This is exactly why, Sardar Ji is in Japan. We are China's only front would they be so careless as to deploy 25-50% of their army along our front if they had other pins pricking them? Fact is, they have plains while we have to build roads up mountains. Very bad situation need to get MDA with Japan.

You are right about the acclamatisation factor. Currently, it takes from 2 weeks to as much as 4 to acclamatise the troops to the higher altitude. But DRDO has been saying that they are researching ways of bringing this down to 5 days.

The IA wouldn't place tanks there if the terrain was unfit fot armored thrusts.

Indian tanks move in Sikkim after Chinese activities : Headlines Today Top Stories, News - India Today
T-72 tanks moved to remote Sikkim area after China tests Indian defences

The concept of COBRA ops is very different to that of regular armies fighting assault/defence operations. These are high intensity operarions and consist of brigade or larger number of troops. Without sustained support or supplies, these formations will be decimated, regardless of how skilled they are. Mixing this with anti Naxal ops will not be prudent, given the size and capability of the enemy.

PLA is in unfamiliar territory, climate, and far from home fighting an aggressor's war they may not believe in. Problem is their industrial base is large enough to negate almost any homefield advantage we have, especially since large part of India is plain with un-armed population. Best policy atm, is to foster alliances, develop, and avoid conflict. Pushing early when it's 500km of road vs 50k is suicide.

Why cannot the army improve infra in NE in the first place for the better

Building roads under feet of snow, up mountains, and area which cannot be closed down as India has single link to seven sister states due to East Pakistan.

Strike Corps for Strategic riposte or Strike Corps for Strategic Defense or for preemptive strikes are terms not unheard of. What have Indian strike Corps done so far except that ??

How deep is deep for mountains? How hard is hard for mountains? Chinese achieved their aims in Arunachal by defeat of two brigades worth and in in Aksai chin by defeat of only one brigade?

The same applies to the Chinese. They can muster the forces over 30 days and India can also muster up the strike Corps anywhere in Arunachal in 30 days. Logistics and infrastructure for that has to be ensured.

The PLA will take 30 days to assemble troops to launch some viable force. Before that it can pin pricks at few places for which troops in defense would suffice. It is to cater for medium level conflict situations that NE requires extra reserves as lateral move of defensive formations are not possible so far.
Strike Corps for mountains is meant to restore an adverse situation rather than capture Tibet.

The himalayas are not just mountains, they're snowy roadless ones. No vehicles, and soliders have very hard time up there. It's hell to fight in, China will send divisions as they are mustered and straight down railroads, they can also stop civilian traffic on trans. infra to speed up process something that's harder in a democracy. One big thing is: PLA doesn't train in or use body armor. Not sure about IA but can be either or, can save your life but the weight can you in situation where you need saving.

I agree troop induction is not the biggest problem. Especially since the mountain divisions are devoid of armoured assets/BLT etc, and include only signals, artillery elements and other lighter assets, air deployment will not be a big headache.
The bigger problem will be logistics, especially when the shooting starts.
Even the 145 M777 guns firing 6 rounds a minute for 8 hours daily will require 144 tons of Artillery rounds a day. Thats 30 sorties a day by Mi-17 just for the guns for the strike corps. For a short intense war, we can conduct operations via air supply only. That I agree. But any prolonged one, as in case of a stalemate will have us in a very uneviable position.
Though op Checkerboard did show us our airlift capability, any field commander is far more comfortable when he has a road/naval supply line to his troops.

You cannot fight a war with only air supply routes. Skirmishes yes, but it is not the best situation. Without overland routes or industrial centres that can supply by sea, we are in a very un-enviable position. Aircraft use more fuel than the vehicle they are trying to supply. I hope you know that the US army is 2nd or 3rd biggest polluter just never measured. An abrams can use 100's of l like that.

And just think for a moment.....China will face 9 mountain divisions spread over a 4000km front, while the Indians will face 3 divisons in three (4/5?) thrusts along narrow fronts. Who has the advantage now?

This is similar to the CSD, building up a localised superiority in firepower and troops and launching hard thrusts while the other elements move to the borders . No reason why the Chinese cant.

If you think this is impossible, the CSD envisaged by the IA is even more suicidal. 8 IBGs (no bigger than a division each ) against 25-30 odd Pakistani divisons
Amd btw, the Chinese will be inducting as much as a division a day. They wont be waiting until day 30 for the whole army to mobilise. They will be reinforcing faster than the IA can btw.

And they also don't have a western front to defend. It's India that needs to bleed CH-Pak by thousand cuts, not ness. by terrorism many other methods.

 

[Bhadra]

I was talking about the number of divisions China might build up before launching a thrust. Please note that atleast 3 divisions ( and one Airborne division) exist which can be deployed to TAR within 24 hours of notice, and for all practical purposes may be stated to be in TAR itself. in addition, several units already based in Tibet. The 3 divisions I talked about are in addition to these units.
I'll post the divisions and army group that are within 24 hr notice deployment to China.

And why can't three divisions launch an assault? Three divisions are a huge number, especially when attacking with the element of surprise and impressive CAS.
A Chinese version of the CSD is very much possible ( though with much more limited speed and power)

And just think for a moment.....China will face 9 mountain divisions spread over a 4000km front, while the Indians will face 3 divisons in three (4/5?) thrusts along narrow fronts. Who has the advantage now?

This is similar to the CSD, building up a localised superiority in firepower and troops and launching hard thrusts while the other elements move to the borders . No reason why the Chinese cant.

If you think this is impossible, the CSD envisaged by the IA is even more suicidal. 8 IBGs (no bigger than a division each ) against 25-30 odd Pakistani divisons....its not the overall number that counts but the localised superiority in CSD.

Amd btw, the Chinese will be inducting as much as a division a day. They wont be waiting until day 30 for the whole army to mobilise. They will be reinforcing faster than the IA can btw.

I can make out the theoretician who has never seen mountains.....

Induct a division in Tibet and launch ??????? Ha Ha Ha....

What is your assessment for the time taken for a division to launch an attack in mountains in high altitude??

Even three divisions will fail to capture one formidable mountain post..

would it be worth it ???

 

[Ray]

illegal bengalis

Bengalis are legal.

Bangladeshis are illegal!

 

[DivineHeretic]

I can make out the theoretician who has never seen mountains.....

Induct a division in Tibet and launch ??????? Ha Ha Ha....

What is your assessment for the time taken for a division to launch an attack in mountains in high altitude??

Even three divisions will fail to capture one formidable mountain post..

would it be worth it ???

The first line is cute, especially when speaking to someone in the NE. You do realise that except for the Brahmaputra and the Barak valley, there are no large plains in the NE.

I can understand the amusement in the first line, but am not sure of the second.

And by Induct, you do understand thay I'm not talking about a new division being inducted but rather a division inducted into the TAR region from the nearby plains.
If you don't believe thay the PLA can deploy troops into TAR and conduct operations, then you'd better look at the war games/exercises they've conducted over the last few years....

Outside acclamatisation problems, the Chinese are not hindered in anyway from launching assaults into AP or any other region. Assuming they use the rail network for deployment, they could be at the border in less than 48 hours from the start of the journey on the plains, though personally I believe they will allow the troops a little acclamatisation before the war is commenced.

Exactly how much time they will take to launch an assault on the mountians is their perrogative, but logic dictates that operation be commenced as soon as minimum acclamatisation is complete to retain the element of surprise.

And whoever told you 3 divisions are insufficient to take a mountain? The Chief of staff of the IA? You might slow down or stall a larger formation with a fortified mountain, but you can't stop the invasion. And pray tell me why will they choose to invade a heavily defended sector? When they can just as easily penetrate into a soft spot.

 

[DivineHeretic]

@DivineHeretic, I would like to ask you something, and please don't misconstrue this as discouraging you to write what you wish to, what is the need for India to make a thrust into TAR? I believe that would mean attacking PRC from the eastern sector. We don't have a problem there. We have a problem with Aksai Chin, and that is part of East Turkestan or what the Chinese call "New Territory" i.e. Xinjiang, with just a little bit in TAR.

Our military objectives in the eastern sector are going to be defensive, and maybe a few minor offensive actions only if feasible and advantageous. Our main objective would be in the western sector, i.e. to evict the PLA from Aksai Chin.

In any future confict with PRC, we have to assume the possibility that Pak may intervene. In any such situation ( which is the basis for the two front war statements out of MoD), the forces under Northern Command will be facing two armies,while the Western,South western Commands will be too focused on Pak. The Southern command usually supports the operations against Pak.

That leaves the Eastern Command assets to deal with the Chinese threat. It will be the best command to undertake operations as it can focus solely on tne Chinese forces. The northern command may be too busy with the twin threats to attempt any major assaults, and certainly not the kind to recapture Aksai
This is why I'd prefer the thrust to be along the NE front, where the forces are not in danger of being attacked from the back.

 

[Iamanidiot]

@pmaitra @DivineHeretic Have you read the WZC threads in WAB by OOE and Xinhui

 

[p2prada]

Pray tell me what can three divisions do in mountains ?
Cold start ?

India would probably cold start with 6 divisions plus ?

China would do cold start when nine division plus sitting in defenses against them with three divisions ?

Then wait for thirty days for additional troops to build up ?

What cold start is that ?

Though it is fears but nuances are not clear

INDIA FEARS CHINA MAY COPYCAT ITS MILITARY DOCTRINE | idrw.org

China has its own doctrine called the Warzone Campaign.

Both Cold Start and Warzone Campaign were extracted from the American FM 3-XXX set of doctrines.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Its not the number what counts, Its the well equipped modern army counts..

20,000 solider can do given proper infrastructure, arms and support units, rest is IAF..

 

[rock127]

CHINA HAS AROUND 4 LAKH soldier along indian border


40,000 soldier will be enough if India thinking with Pakistani formula of 1 Indian =10 Chinese soldier

There are about 100k troops against Chinese who got 3-4 times ie. 300-400k.

Can someone confirm the following current situation of IA along Chinese border?

4th corps(3 divisions,Tejpur)
3 corps(2 divisions, Dimapur)
34 corps(3 divisions,sikkim)
14th corps(2 divisions,leh)

So add 40,000 to the above in future hopefully.

 

[DivineHeretic]

Its not the number what counts, Its the well equipped modern army counts..

20,000 solider can do given proper infrastructure, arms and support units, rest is IAF..

Also if I may add to that, success or failure will depend on choosing the timing and location of the assault.
We need the element of surprise and more importantly, the ability to isolate and detach the area of thrust from the Chinese supply lines until atleast the intruding forces neutralise the defenders of the location and secure a foothold.

The operation Overlord is a good example of isolating the area of operation from hostile reinforcement. The British and the American Airborne divisions conducted airdrops the night before the amphibious assault. They managed to stall the German Panzer divisions long enough until the ampibious assaults managed to secure the beachhead.
It is not the best comparison, but still does show how important this factor is in an assault. Its an expensive assault in terms of men, but then as a certain Captain Price asked the General: Are you willing to do everything necessary to win the war?

If we wish to win, we will have to be willing to bear the price that will be demanded. Its not valued in gold or dollars or diamonds, but the lives of the unquestioning, determined brave jawans and officers who will willingly jump to their grave for the nation, knowing their sacrifice is a necessary price for this nation.

 

[Ray]

Xinhui is a undercover Chinese agent.

Not credible!

 

[sesha_maruthi27]

Also if I may add to that, success or failure will depend on choosing the timing and location of the assault.
We need the element of surprise and more importantly, the ability to isolate and detach the area of thrust from the Chinese supply lines until atleast the intruding forces neutralise the defenders of the location and secure a foothold.

The operation Overlord is a good example of isolating the area of operation from hostile reinforcement. The British and the American Airborne divisions conducted airdrops the night before the amphibious assault. They managed to stall the German Panzer divisions long enough until the ampibious assaults managed to secure the beachhead.
It is not the best comparison, but still does show how important this factor is in an assault. Its an expensive assault in terms of men, but then as a certain Captain Price asked the General: Are you willing to do everything necessary to win the war?

If we wish to win, we will have to be willing to bear the price that will be demanded. Its not valued in gold or dollars or diamonds, but the lives of the unquestioning, determined brave jawans and officers who will willingly jump to their grave for the nation, knowing their sacrifice is a necessary price for this nation.

The bravery and the dedication and also unquestioning attitude of the Indian Defence Forces is unquestionable, they are ready to die for the nation but the Political class should have a clear objective of what is to be done and a credible and affirmative decision must be taken about what should be done and also a strong mind to back up the decision......

The present Indian Political class lacks a leader who can take a firm decision and can carry forward. The power of the Indian Defence Forces is of no use if there is no clear cut planning and decision making.....

 

[pmaitra]

We are not here to either advertise or criticize other fora, or their members. Let's focus on the topic.

 

[W.G.Ewald]

China has its own doctrine called the Warzone Campaign.

Both Cold Start and Warzone Campaign were extracted from the American FM 3-XXX set of doctrines.

[PDF]http://www.ssi.army.mil/ncoa/AGS_SLC_ALC_REGS/FM%203-0.pdf[/PDF]

 

[pmaitra]

@W.G.Ewald,

Thank you Sir. Copy made here as well: http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/military-history/50907-war-doctrines-2.html#post743002

 

[Bhadra]

In any future confict with PRC, we have to assume the possibility that Pak may intervene. In any such situation ( which is the basis for the two front war statements out of MoD), the forces under Northern Command will be facing two armies,while the Western,South western Commands will be too focused on Pak. The Southern command usually supports the operations against Pak.

That leaves the Eastern Command assets to deal with the Chinese threat. It will be the best command to undertake operations as it can focus solely on tne Chinese forces. The northern command may be too busy with the twin threats to attempt any major assaults, and certainly not the kind to recapture Aksai
This is why I'd prefer the thrust to be along the NE front, where the forces are not in danger of being attacked from the back.

I do not think so...... That only Eastern command would be involved with Chinese threat..

I think all commands including Southern Command would be involved with Chinese one way or the other...

Say Southern command may provide reserve of one Corps according to the situation or it may be the South Western command which may act as reserve command for operations against Chinese aggression...

The offensive Corps would provide adequate cushion for India to choose from multiple options....

 

[DivineHeretic]

I do not think so...... That only Eastern command would be involved with Chinese threat..

I think all commands including Southern Command would be involved with Chinese one way or the other...

Say Southern command may provide reserve of one Corps according to the situation or it may be the South Western command which may act as reserve command for operations against Chinese aggression...

The offensive Corps would provide adequate cushion for India to choose from multiple options....

I agree the Eastern Command will not be the sole command tasked with handling the Chinese threat. The Northern Command will too be directly involved in the action, and so will the other commands, mostly in an indirect capacity. In any case, the Eastern command will require assets of the other commands, most notably the artilley and Army aviation assets.

I'm not entirely sure as to who the Southern command will act against, but given that the Western and SW commands have credible capacity against Pak, it would be realistic and very possible that the Southern command will be deployed in support of Eastern Command operations.

As for SW command, it was created primarily for the Pakistani theatre, I dont see it being able to spare anything more than a division/artillery brigade/engineering brigade to the Eastern front without losing capability.

What I meant by my earlier comment is that with the Northern Command being squeezed by both Pak and Chinese forces, the attention of the top ranks will be distributed on the two fronts and the need to prevent a linkup between the two forces. As such, with its back to the wall, it would not be the best command to direct a deep offensive into Chinese areas.

The Eastern command on the other hand is faced with hostiles on only one front, and as such is not threatened by forces at its back. It would be easier for it to manage logistics and assets in support of strike corps than the Northern Command.

 

[pmaitra]

I think the Navy will be deployed in the Arabian Sea, to retain the capability to choke off fuel supplies to Pakistan from its prime theological benefactor Saudi Wahhabia, just in case Pakistan has the itch to intervene.

 

[Bhadra]

I agree the Eastern Command will not be the sole command tasked with handling the Chinese threat. The Northern Command will too be directly involved in the action, and so will the other commands, mostly in an indirect capacity. In any case, the Eastern command will require assets of the other commands, most notably the artilley and Army aviation assets.

I'm not entirely sure as to who the Southern command will act against, but given that the Western and SW commands have credible capacity against Pak, it would be realistic and very possible that the Southern command will be deployed in support of Eastern Command operations.

As for SW command, it was created primarily for the Pakistani theatre, I dont see it being able to spare anything more than a division/artillery brigade/engineering brigade to the Eastern front without losing capability.

What I meant by my earlier comment is that with the Northern Command being squeezed by both Pak and Chinese forces, the attention of the top ranks will be distributed on the two fronts and the need to prevent a linkup between the two forces. As such, with its back to the wall, it would not be the best command to direct a deep offensive into Chinese areas.

The Eastern command on the other hand is faced with hostiles on only one front, and as such is not threatened by forces at its back. It would be easier for it to manage logistics and assets in support of strike corps than the Northern Command.

Chinese have achieved what they wanted in Aksai Chin. If they wish to achive something more it would be in Arunachal....

Hence Eastern Sector remains more threatened...

Collusive military operations can however be more effective in Ladakh. Even if one was to create a Ladakh Command, that command would still remain committed on two fronts.

Collusive miltary operations in Eastern Theatre are though much more possible and feasible.

China - Bangladesh.
China _ Nepal
China - Myanmar
China from East and China from North...

geographically all those scenarios are feasible...

Hence Eastern theater remains much more threatened