Germany cracks down on Salafists

Discussion in 'Europe and Russia' started by Son of Govinda, Jun 17, 2012.

  1. Son of Govinda

    Son of Govinda Regular Member

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    Germany cracks down on Salafists | Germany | DW.DE | 15.06.2012

    German security officials Thursday raided Salafist groups in seven different states. The interior minister declared such groups to be anti-constitutional and issued a ban.

    Muslims, making up about 5 percent of the population in Germany, comprise the third-largest religious group in the country. Of the approximately 4 million Muslims, only about 1 percent can be considered Islamist, German security services say.

    And according to the organization Sekteninfo NRW, only about 5,000 of these are Salafists. Of these, 100 are seen as "missionaries," while 24 have been labeled as "dangerous." More than 1,000 police were called in to search Salafist centers in the seven German states.

    Interior Minister Hans-Peter Friedrich justified the raids by saying the Salafists maintain terrorist ties. Constitutional Protection President Heinz Fromm stated that although not every Salafist is a terrorist "almost all terrorists that we know of have had contact to Salafists, or are Salafists."

    Islam expert Herbert Müller, in a DW interview, warned that the Salafist scene "openly threatens the German state."
    Militant minority awakes suspicion

    In German public perception, Salafists played virtually no role for a long time. This only changed once they started handing out thousands of Korans in public places, and getting into street battles with right-wing extremists of the Pro-NRW movement. Recognizable through their long, white garments and crochet caps, they've now become objects of suspicion.

    Part of this suspicion rests with the uncertainty about Salafists' relation to German society. Salafists promote the idea that democracy is the "work of the devil," while they believe that jihad is comprised not of religious devotion, but armed struggle for the six pillars of Islam. Men and women are not seen as possessing the same rights. And anyone who disagrees is labeled an "infidel."

    Old-fashioned worldview

    Friedmann Eißler of the Evangelical Central Department for Questions of Worldview warned of groups, which in their interpretation of Islam "explicitly reject democracy and glorify martyrdom." Since the Salafist sect is based on a literal interpretation of the Koran, "it's about statements from the 7th to the 9th Century. That was the golden age of Islam, when politics and religion were intertwined," said Eißler.

    That the values associated with this era may not be compatible with modern democracy holds true not only for Salafism, but for other fundamentalist groups as well. Sekteninfo NRW has published a number of reports and documents illustrating this point. Eißler added that the complexity of a globalized world has led some to seek out "simple black-and-white solutions," something which may be contributing to the rise of fundamentalist tendencies in other areas of society.

    Abuse of democratic freedoms

    German society is particularly sensitive when groups within the constitutional state make counter-democratic assertions. The Nazi party in the 1930s issued anti-Jewish propaganda under laws guaranteeing freedom of expression. Yet, as will go down in the annals of history, the party invalidated the law after coming to power.

    Public distribution of the Koran has stoked the public concern, along with talk show appearances of prominent Islamists, who provided only vague responses to inquiries about democratic values, such as pluralism and tolerance. Sharia, the Islamic system of law, is also considered a threat to the secular state.
     
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  3. Mad Indian

    Mad Indian Proud Bigot Veteran Member Senior Member

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    Actually the one percent islamists are enough to destroy the nation.

    Do you know was the opinion on Nazi when they first appeared in Germany? Many were happy about them. Some even after their violent behavior. Many claimed that not all Nazis ;) are like that. That there are moderates in the Nazis.

    But we all know how much moderate Nazis were able to stop the fanatism of Nazis. The one percent Nazis were enough to destroy the Europe. Not just that there the voice of the moderates did not matter then nor would it have mattered now. This is the problem with Muslims too. Replace the words Nazi with Muslim in that para and it Will appear true too. I am not saying all Muslims are bad but the thing which makes them all culpable is that their moderates don't come and take care of the islamists nut jobs themselves

    ISLAMISTS May comprise only one percent or even less but unless the Moderates in that religion start acting against the shit in their community, it won't matter.
     
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  4. Blackwater

    Blackwater Veteran Member Veteran Member

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    German has mostly and largely Muslim population from Turkey and Turkish Muslim seems to be moderate but in the end Muslims are Muslims:sad::sad::sad:
     
  5. ejazr

    ejazr Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    In 1933 when Hitler became the chancellor of Germany, the Nazi party won 40% of the popular vote. Its not quite possible to have the Nazi like situation in Germany with Islamists unless you expect them to win 30-40% of the popular vote. Hitler actually did come to power with a popular mandate and it was the largest party in the German parliament
    Nazi Party - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    As per the German authority figures, there are 5000 Islamists of Salafi origin with really 100+ who are serious threats. This out of a Muslim population of 4 million and a German population as a whole of 80 million.

    Ofcoure, there is no doubt that religious nationalist discourse or more specifically the political Islamic ideology has to be tackled and is a cancer in Muslim thought today. Particularly the idea that Islam promotes the idea that Muslims should work for establishing some sort of a political "Islamic" state where shariah is implemented top down is at its core an UnIslamic idea with no basis in Quran or Sunnah. Ofcourse, more urgent that this is to target the more miliant and violent version of this ideology as espused by Al Qaeda and groups like LeT that justify the killing of innocent civilians and suicide bombings which is explicitly prohibited.
    There are many scholars who have debated this and in India one of the most prominent is Maulana Wahiduddin.
    The Challenge of Islamic Fundamentalism | CPS International
    Maulana's Anti-Terror Solidarity Statement on the 26/11 Anniversary Eve | CPS International
     
  6. Mad Indian

    Mad Indian Proud Bigot Veteran Member Senior Member

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    ^^^you don't understand what I meant. What I meant was that the prominence of nutbags in the Islam should not be there. Germany May have only 5000 islamists out of 4 million Muslims but in the end it is inconsequential because the moderate majority won't/does not matter in the affairs. 5000 islamists can do enough damage for the rest combined.

    It does not matter if Jihad is un-islamic irctc not. What matters is how much practical use te religion is put into.

    Let me put it this way, if the entire world except Muslims worry about islamism , then is the entire world paranoid or is it because of the nutbags of Islam?


    And as I already said, unless the islamists are made inconsequential by moderates from the Muslims, this problem won't stop.



    For example Hindu nutbags are kept in check by Hindu moderates:D and in foreign countries Christian nutbags are kept in check by Christians themselves:heh:
     
  7. ejazr

    ejazr Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    This is a bit OT, but I think relevant for discussion. We might have a seperate thread if needed.

    Jihad as a concept is misued and abused. What I mentioned was that political Islamic ideology of establishing a so called "Islamic state" with a cleric as a head of state is UnIslamic. Infact, other than the Ayatollah in Iran, no other Muslim country in the world has a religious leader as a head of state. While no Hindu or Chrisitan religious nationlist as such have received state funding and support. Muslim counterparts during the anti-Soviet war in Afghanistan recieved bilions of dollars and training from US, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and western countries, even China, making them into a potent force. Its only now that their threat has diminished and eroded.

    And there is no doubt because AQ and their terrorist attacks in the name of Islam, there is already a wave of anti-Muslim feelings in Germany and other ocuntries. For example, there is the case of the headscarf martyr where an Egyptian origin pharmacist who was pregnant was stabbed to death in court while her husband was shot at by the police their when he went to defend her (Marwa al-Sherbini: Headscarf Martyr - TIME). Then you have the case of Anders Breivik in Norway who was responsible for the deaths of 80 people. But this wasn't hatred for fellow Norwegians, but hatred for Muslims that drove him to do this. So it defineitely is something that DIRECTLY affects muslims. Breivik just had some bad experiences with a Pakistani Muslim, read some loony stuff on the Internet and then decided to commit this massacre.

    A basic thing to understand is that even in the worse case scenario, a muslim religious nationlist govt. can never be put in place where Muslims are a minority. The fears would be more applicable in Egypt for example where this could be possible. Similarly, you wouldn't expect a Hindu religious nationlist take over in the US or UK, because Hindus are not a majority there. And similarly for Christians and Jews.


    The nomenclature also needs to be defined properly before we discuss what we are trying to discuss here.

    (1) Islamists: is used as a catch all term for anyone who might be remotely connected to Islam at times. But academically it refers to specifically those group of people who want to use Islam for a political purpose or establish an "Islamic" state with a top down appraoch forcing the citizens to follow "their" version of "Islamic laws". Many of these supporters may not even be religiously devout. On the other hand, most Islamic scholars would not actually even be Islamists because they don't see this as santioned in Islam.

    In the Muslim world, you have JI and its affiliates in Pakistan, the Ayatollah led Islamic revolution in Iran and the Muslim brotherhood as examples of Islamists groups. These groups as such also participate in democratic politics and should have the right to do so as long as they also affirm that right of democratic politics for all and are non-violent just like we have Christian democrats in Europe or Shiv Sena in India. While sometimes, the AKP in Turkey is called Islamists, technically, they don't call for anything that for example JI in Pakistan do. They openly declare their country as secular and even championed secularism to the Egyptians and asked them to establish a secular state.
    These groups by themselves are not a security threat. But many Islamic scholars consider their ideology to be outside of Islamic principles. And IMO, while this is not taken as a threat by Western secruity agencies, it is a very serious concern for Muslims themselves particularly for the Arab countries where this has more support. And, within the Muslim world, there is a lot of discussion and debate around this where people including religious scholars oppose religious politics or use of religion for politics.

    (2) The next group, that usually comes as subsect with this "Islamists" group is the religious nationlist Jihadists
    These are groups that basically take a local nationlist view and justify fighting a local army and even attack civilians with the idea that they are defending their land. This is what we see for example in Afghanistan or the TTP vs Pakistan Army. And a number of other places from Palestine, Chechenya or Kashmir in India or local conflicts in Algeria and Egypt.

    Mostly these localised conflicts started of as leftist independance movements along with a lot of other independance movements all over Asia and Africa and usually had a leftist secular ideology before being morphed and superceded by a more Islamist ideology post Soviet-Afghan war. These are certainly of a concern mainly to Asian and African countries. EU and the US have had only indirect relation with these conflicts. Although to be fair, Europe did suffer from a big wave of leftist terrorism though the 60s, 70s and even today it is the biggest category of terrorist attacks in Europe.

    This group is basically a radicalised minority within the Islamist movement. While most Islamists advocate "peaceful" propagation of their ideas, this group justifies that violence is required because peaceful methods will no longer work. But as countries like Algeria, Egypt and today Pakistan show, they can be cause a lot of damage if not tackled effectively from the beginning.

    (3) The final group that is the biggest concern among Islam inspired groups is the trans-national Jihadist. These are groups that basically revolve around "revenge attacks" mainly around the Iraq, Afghanistan , Palestine grievances. And an additional idea that the West supports the "corrupt" regimes in the Middle East from Saudi Arabia to Algeria and get the West to withdraw backing or even attack these govt. so as to weaken them and allow them to take over. This groups is subsect of the religious nationalist Jihadist and is a uber-radicalised minority even within the Jihadist movement. For example, when AQ attacked the US on 9/11, they were criticised not only by mainstream Muslims which was expected as well as by Islamists. But even by religious nationalist Jihadists or the localised Jihadists. For example, HAMAS and Hezbullah publicly condemened the attacks even as they continue justifying attacks against Israel. The plain fact is that they basically have no explanation or justification and if you look at their statements and tapes they are always appealing to religious scholars to grant them santion and to support "their" work. But they have been repeated condemened and charged as khariji and deviant.

    The last two groups are definitely security threats and both need to be tackled. In particular, the idea of suicide bombings and killing civilians is explicitly prohibited. Even the hardline Salafi scholars form Saudi Arabia for example had declared that suicide bombings even if it be against the Israeli military let alone civilians is haram or forbidden as sucide itself is forbidden in Islam.



    Hence in my discussion, I always mention that its not just enough tackling militant Jihadists in the 2nd and 3rd category which is being done ruthlessly. Afterall groups like AQ have a history of trageting more muslims than non-muslims (Surprising Study On Terrorism: Al-Qaida Kills Eight Times More Muslims Than Non-Muslims - SPIEGEL ONLINE).
    Most people don't keep this perspective in mind that there are more Muslims being killed by militant groups than non-muslims by far. While some countries like Saudi Arabia have realised this as a society and supported their govt. to come down hard on militant groups we still have countries like Pakistan where the society believes in conspiracy theories and the govt. has no will to go after these groups despite massive casualties. This is going to continue to be major problem primarily for Pakistan but also to Afghanistan and to India if they don't sort out these militant groups.

    In other place, I had shown that according data collected by the US and EU terrorism task forces, Islamist inspired terror incidents were around 4% for the US for the last five years and less than 1% for Europe. Even for India, the entire period from 2005 onwards comprised of about 9% of total terror incidents in India and this included the J&K attacks. If you want to look at this data let me know


    To tackle the political Islamist ideology, there has been intense debate and discussions and articles and books around this topic in the Muslim space which unfortunately never seeps into the mainstream media. Unless you follow this stuff or you read Arabic or Urdu papers and books or maybe are a reasearcher in this area following this, you will not know about it. There was some articles that I posted in my earlier post and there also some discussion (here)

    In short, the threat of Islamists group taking state power is in Muslim majority countries, not in places where they are in minority. And, counter-radicalisation or de-radicalisation is a very serious topics in countries like Saudi Arabia and Indonesia. Not only just with captured terrorists but on the society as a whole in discussing and propagating ideas against violence and terrorism. But you want know about these things from the MSM.
     
  8. Mad Indian

    Mad Indian Proud Bigot Veteran Member Senior Member

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    good post except some of it sounds too good to be true. Anyway, as you say the political Islam is a threat to Muslim majority states and not others what about the states which have demographic transition for ex England or the Europe as hole even. Don't we see enough troubles with the migrant pukes there. Or even kerala about love Jihad
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2012
  9. rock127

    rock127 Maulana Rockullah Senior Member

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    It took only 19 terrorists to kill 3000 americans and start a new WAR! This forced US to wage a war and as a result lakhs of muslims lost their lives(mosty innocent civilians nothing to do with terrorism) Never underestimate a disease in preliminary stage since it can eat up the whole body.The silence of so called moderates is a big question.

    These extremist muslims are becoming a world menace and if the world do not control it in time you got a extremely serious issue to face.
     
  10. A chauhan

    A chauhan "अहिंसा परमो धर्मः धर्म हिंसा तथैव च: l" Senior Member

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    A very good step by Germans!!

    The basic reason behind such charges against Islam is, that it has failed to defend itself from being misused by Terrorists, Extremists, so called Ghazis and even by some silent-moderate Muslims and it's a continuous failure. Religious terrorists from other communities rarely use religious scriptures as a tool to back their misdeeds, and this is something which distinguishes Jihadis from other terrorists.

    The way in which Muslim population increases in non-Muslim-majority states is really a serious matter of concern,it is even happening in Muslim-majority states too. Some Muslim scholars see family-planning as Islamic, while some scholars say that “Kids are Allahs gifts” , now what happens is majority of Muslims doesn't give a sh!t to the correct and true interpretation of Quran, confusions remain, and their population keeps growing at a dangerous speed.

    Normally Muslim scholars and moderates who support family-planning keep silence but whenever non-Muslims bring up objections on their fast birth rate then only they open their mouth and say “Islam is not against family planning” then they go back for silent hibernating and thus silently support it.I have hardly seen any Muslim family planning scheme , distribution of condoms, any camps for Vasectomy or Tubectomy, or anything like that, perhaps never seen, but i have often seen some scholars speaking that family-planning is supported by Islam. Never seen any awareness program on family planning by Muslims. Whatever, but one thing is sure their population is growing fast >>> and neither scholars nor moderates can stop it. And i see it as an Inherent Political quality of majority of Muslims that they willfully do not want to interpret Quran correctly, and even if they correctly interpret it, they doesn't give a sh!t to the happenings and keep silence.

    Little OT but have a look at that Love-Jihad thing, about 4,000 Islamic conversions occurred in just 4 years Hindus as well as Christians objected it, matter somehow reached to the court, court accepted that the conversion at a large number happened, Govt. Said there was no “organized efforts” but it too accepted that conversions happened. Now what should we non-Muslims think ? Are non-Muslim girls more beautiful than Muslim girls in Kerala? Why the conversions were not equally distributed to different communities, like 100 Hindu to Christian conversions, 100 Christian to Hindu conversions, 100 Hindu to Muslim conversions etc. ? Court didn't find any “Organized efforts” in it, but i see a fundamental mistake in thinking pattern of a specific community and that is - they support “Conversion”.And IMO any religious scripture which uses a word like “Conversion” is not only imperfect but heavily and fundamentally flawed. And i don't see any measures to correct it specially in this pseudo-secular environment, the only thing which can help is awareness, which at sometimes be charged as “preaching hatred” by pseudos.

    However Germans are doing a very good job here, "wound should be cured before it turns into a chronic wound which never heals" !!
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2012
  11. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

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    A Chauhan
    1) Jihad has been glorified by worldwide media. This has given the terrorists publicity that they seek an for free
    2) Moderate voice of a muslim is silenced as being minority, There are prejudiced minds which says all muslims are extremists. We have such on this very forum
    3) Moderate muslims have better things to do in life than come out everyday and shout the extremists are wrong and we are right etc. We have families and business to take care of. It could be resolved if the extremists are not on national TV everyday.
    4) Media needs TRP. They would rather have a terrorist on TV saying all kinds of things against humanity and a moderate muslim speaking for humanity. They would love big headlines which says "Muslim fundamentalist said this".
     
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  12. Virendra

    Virendra Moderator Moderator

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    Replace 'muslims' with 'people' and replace 'extremists' with 'anti-socials'. We can justify our inaction for every problem under the Sun.
    While the constraints of a common man (including you and me) cannot be overlooked, I don't quite agree with this helpless reasoning.


    Germans could still turn it around at their end at least, if not elsewhere in Europe. Majority of muslim population in Germany is of Turkish origin. Way better than the Moroccan or Pakistani breed.

    Regards,
    Virendra
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2012
  13. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

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    Moderate Muslims are called upon everyday to rise against extremists. But tell me who will the media interview first? Some one like me or a whacko?
     
  14. A chauhan

    A chauhan "अहिंसा परमो धर्मः धर्म हिंसा तथैव च: l" Senior Member

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    @YB

    Although i agree with the most of what you said but i'll point out some things, moderate Muslim groups who work for the welfare of the community doesn't take steps which i mentioned in para 3 of my post, until they do that, it is obvious to doubt on the principles of the religion itself that it does not support family planning, moderates by merely speaking can not prove it, and the people who suffer most due to such charges against Islam is the same moderates who openly condemn the terrorism.

    1) Media has just reported the incidents and raised concerns, but terrorists used it as a publicity medium.
    2) This is what i always say "All the Muslims are not extremists" but a considerable number are,and Moderates are in minority, yes there are people who take all Muslims as terrorists even in this very forum, and i saw an example of it yesterday.
    3) I agree ! but do you think that moderates should keep quite ? as they are the one who suffer most due to it, charges are made basically on the moderates as they speak up when they see such objections, and not on the terrorists because they deserve to be shot down.
    4) Media even highlighted "Saffron Terrorism" while the number of its cases were very few, it's a business of Media to create propaganda and earn money through it.

    The duty to defend Islam's image is not on the terrorists but on the shoulders of good Muslims if they decide to not act and to only speak, they are bound to face criticism, and the same is happening today. Defence doesn't complete by merely speaking but by taking steps, if moderates who run Muslim organizations organize camps on awareness regarding family planning, and try to spread such awareness to the country and to the common poor Muslims, and if the fertility rates drop due to it, the charges that Islam doesn't support family planning will gradually go down. If they circulate awareness to not convert people by deceitful means such as love marriage and number of conversions drops due to it, this charge too will go down. What I mean is that there are lots of work, moderate Muslims can do to save the image of their community rather than speaking alone.

    BTW by moderate Muslims i don't mean common people but i mean those who speak in public places and try to defend their religion like people who run Muslim organizations, people who dominate Muslim society etc.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2012
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  15. Virendra

    Virendra Moderator Moderator

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    I'm not asking for anyone to give daily interviews. But how do the moderates know without even trying? What did the media do when the same common man aka moderates aka middle class came out against corruption last year? I didn't see their lenses focus elsewhere.
    My point is - the following is a genuince probelm but not a justification.
    We are the ones facing issues. Do you think someone else will wipe our dirt. Even if they take a constitutional oath for the same, they will not. Unless they see that people are looking at the results and will come down hard if performance isn't delivered.
    That is the difference between a functional and dysfunctional democracy. Do people follow through and stay alert or do they go in hybernation for 5 years after which the customary ballot rites are performed again. Moderates muslims, just like the common class of India - are being sold to useless politicians and endless exploitation due to their apathy and inertia. Even a sincere leader would start to care less when he realizes that the people are their own enemies in dozing off.
    Same root cause everywhere.

    Regards,
    Virendra
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2012
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  16. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

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    By not glorifying the terrorists and giving them publicity, majority of the work is done. Block all the known terror sites (I would say including defpk) so that they don't get any outlet.
     
  17. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    What you are saying is that the one percent of Islam would take over the country? More like another facist movement would sweep the country and kick them out.

    That is like saying the Jews were enough to destroy Europe. The only fear is that Islamists push the boundaries too far and get kicked in the rear for doing so. Anti-Islamic sentiment is rising and tolerance is fading.
     
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  18. Mad Indian

    Mad Indian Proud Bigot Veteran Member Senior Member

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    For first para
    1. Do you think it takes ten terrorist to kill ten people? You don't think ideological pollution with extremism as a harm? You don't think one percent extremists can destroy the tolerance,secularism of a society. Well if you do, then you are in agreement with me here. If not then well you should ask yourself what the hell is happening in the world and why is anti-islamic sentiment rising in the world:thumb:

    2. No what I mean is one percent bad Nazis,who were extremists were enough to destroy the German national identity and societal harmony(if historic statements regarding Nazis prior to WW2 were right). Similarly one percent extremists if left unchecked by the moderates Will ruin the country. Read again, if left unchecked. That's what I have always said, from day one. Moderates should take care of the non sense in their society. Its either that or it just means that there is no moderate left in that society though I would like to believe otherwise


    Here if you still disagree that one percent extremists are not enough to harm the nation, then ask yourself as to why Germany had to crack them down?
     
  19. Mad Indian

    Mad Indian Proud Bigot Veteran Member Senior Member

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    despite taking care to tone my post down and to yell t he truth without accusing Muslims of extremism but rather with inaction, my post comes across as a communal post.


    How much have our minds have been indoctrined to think that even thinking about reality is communal:tsk:
     
  20. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    I do agree that extremists can harm the nation, but you equated Islamists to the Nazis which would put them in the position of power. That minority will never have the power in Europe and another facist movement would sweep to prevent it. I fear that day but if it does come, I hope it is humane and not like Nazis.
     
  21. Mad Indian

    Mad Indian Proud Bigot Veteran Member Senior Member

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    ^^^I meant it in terms of their behaviour and the harm they can cause and not in exact sense.
     

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