Genetic evidence suggests the origins of Indian caste populations

[Singh]

I have to point out, that the mountains of Hunza Valley, and the Western Ghats of the Konkan Region are very different. Isolated communities tend to be found in remotely located parts. I do not think the Konkan Region was isolated or remote, when we have plenty of evidence of migration across much more inhospitable terrain, such as the Tarim Basin, Qizil Kum, Pamir Knot, Caucasian Mountains, etc..

Genetic mutation is possible, but the probability is very rare. If genetic mutation would explain the diversity of Indians, we should have found similar genetic variety amongst the Native American populations of South America. Mutation does not seem to be a significant contributor for the genetic diversity in India.

Hunza are of Greek origin I believe.

 

[Singh]

Hmm...you are an NRI @Singh! You have absolutely no idea about how rigid caste system was 5-600 years ago, at least in S India. Forget about intermarrying with Portuguese, even inter marrying among different castes would lead to a Brahmin becoming outcaste.

Though there were rules in the shastras for assigning the caste when a woman of upper caste married into lower caste and vice versa, caste system seems to be have been very rigid at least for past 1000 years.

Err I just told you that I am a delhite ? To reiterate born, bred, raised and currently living in India.

It could be inter marriage, it could be forcible. But chances of them spontaneously acquiring such mutations as to make them appear as Europeans, when there was as brutal European occupation is something that is a bit hard to digest.

Unless there any historical records which speak of them ?
although the larger point could be that skin color is not an accurate reflector of caste but could be a reliable indicator of the extent of foreign mixing ?

 

[pmaitra]

Hunza are of Greek origin I believe.

I will have to look deep into it. I did however see the location (Coordinates: 36°19"²N 74°39"²E).

The stock of the people of GB is really very diverse.

 

[Singh]

I am a big believer that is infact India that is the cradle of mankind. Look at the diversity.
Or it could also mean the opposite since India or jambudvipa was previously an island floating close to Africa and upon our joining the east Asian and European plate our genes reflect the outcome of this intermixing rather than they evolving from us ?

 

[parijataka]

Err I just told you that I am a delhite ? To reiterate born, bred, raised and currently living in India.

It could be inter marriage, it could be forcible. But chances of them spontaneously acquiring such mutations as to make them appear as Europeans, when there was as brutal European occupation is something that is a bit hard to digest.

Unless there any historical records which speak of them ?
although the larger point could be that skin color is not an accurate reflector of caste but could be a reliable indicator of the extent of foreign mixing ?

Aap bas aivin likh dete ho kabhi kabhi - fair skin of Brahmins due to intermingling with Portuguese. I was kidding about your NRI status btw.

 

[Virendra]

Err I just told you that I am a delhite ? To reiterate born, bred, raised and currently living in India.

It could be inter marriage, it could be forcible. But chances of them spontaneously acquiring such mutations as to make them appear as Europeans, when there was as brutal European occupation is something that is a bit hard to digest.

Unless there any historical records which speak of them ?
although the larger point could be that skin color is not an accurate reflector of caste but could be a reliable indicator of the extent of foreign mixing ?

We can sometimes control the tenedency to try finding answers into foreign things. That everything worthy in India must come from outside is only a bias IMO.
Why can we not fathom that people of fair and dark both complexions have been in India long before the stipulated timelines of AIT/AMT.
Why should we sideline that same genotypes can exist with different different phenotypes, based on a number of climatic or mutation factors.
Why should we ignore that there were two ancestral genetic lines in India - ANI (ancestral north indian) and ASI (anestral south indian).
Why should we forget that India received settlements in multiple waves from the many of Africa to Arabia outwards movements .. again way before the stipulated timeslines of AIT/AMT.


There may be genetic similarities in people of northwestern India and the European stock. But that only establishes an affinity.
What remains to be seen is the direction. What was the lebensraum and to where the people migrated?
It is a known fact in Genetics, that if a genetic marker moves from place A to B and furthermore, then its haplotype diversity would be the highest at its origin - that is location A.
In case of these common genetic markers, the haplotype diversity is highest in northwest India. Meaning these genes originated in India.
Genetics gives the same picture again and again, whether you analyze human genes or even animals such as cows.

Regards,
Virendra

 

[drkrn]

What kind of generalization is that
I belong to a so called "upper caste" and am hardly fair in complexion.
My community and our ancestors in all their depictions hardly look anywhere similar to what they say 'fair skinned'.
Till the point our history goes back, we have always been in the northwest Indian region.

Regards,
Virendra

the term upper caste formed very recently,just few years before independence.in India as many here know there are only 4 varna brahmana-the educated,kshatriya the political brass,vysyas-the economic/business class,sudra- the working class

as the first two ruled majority of indian history they became upper castes irrespective of their current social status
vysyas because of their economy became upper caste

most astonishing to many there are many sudra communities of olden days who are listed as upper caste today.best example is the reddy community of andhrapradesh.once predominantly farmers and agricultural labor today they are the strongest community in AP in any way concerned

the once top class people the Kapus in AP lost their superiority over years are now about to get BC status

 

[MAYURA]

the term upper caste formed very recently,just few years before independence.in India as many here know there are only 4 varna brahmana-the educated,kshatriya the political brass,vysyas-the economic/business class,sudra- the working class

as the first two ruled majority of indian history they became upper castes irrespective of their current social status
vysyas because of their economy became upper caste

most astonishing to many there are many sudra communities of olden days who are listed as upper caste today.best example is the reddy community of andhrapradesh.once predominantly farmers and agricultural labor today they are the strongest community in AP in any way concerned

the once top class people the Kapus in AP lost their superiority over years are now about to get BC status

The reddys were sudras and most of kingdoms in south were of sudras due to no or low number of kshatriyas.

the caste was flexible as seen by absorption of various tribes into mainstream.

 

[drkrn]

The reddys were sudras and most of kingdoms in south were of sudras due to no or low number of kshatriyas.

the caste was flexible as seen by absorption of various tribes into mainstream.

true:thumb:

 

[Maharaj]

These people are the descendants of the Peshwas(Brahmins) who ruled the Maratha Empire after the death of Shahu.
They don't look like foreigners.

 

[MAYURA]

We can sometimes control the tenedency to try finding answers into foreign things. That everything worthy in India must come from outside is only a bias IMO.
Why can we not fathom that people of fair and dark both complexions have been in India long before the stipulated timelines of AIT/AMT.
Why should we sideline that same genotypes can exist with different different phenotypes, based on a number of climatic or mutation factors.
Why should we ignore that there were two ancestral genetic lines in India - ANI (ancestral north indian) and ASI (anestral south indian).
Why should we forget that India received settlements in multiple waves from the many of Africa to Arabia outwards movements .. again way before the stipulated timeslines of AIT/AMT.

exactly.


Lalji singh, vice chancellor of my university gave a lecture, in which he said that his study told him that the so called foreign groups in india have been here for last 8,000 years.

anthropologists have found 2000 bc remains of caucasoid type in karnataka ( AIT OR AMT begins in 1500 bc).



as you rightly said , the area around west UP, haryana and punjab are perhaps the places where such features originated.

 

[pmaitra]

We can sometimes control the tenedency to try finding answers into foreign things. That everything worthy in India must come from outside is only a bias IMO.
Why can we not fathom that people of fair and dark both complexions have been in India long before the stipulated timelines of AIT/AMT.
Why should we sideline that same genotypes can exist with different different phenotypes, based on a number of climatic or mutation factors.

Mutations take a long time to happen, that goes to the tune of millions of years.

This link gives a fair estimate of how long it takes for mutations to happen: Neanderthal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Change in appearance in a matter of a few centuries is quickly achieved by inter-ethnic breeding.

Why should we ignore that there were two ancestral genetic lines in India - ANI (ancestral north indian) and ASI (anestral south indian).
Why should we forget that India received settlements in multiple waves from the many of Africa to Arabia outwards movements .. again way before the stipulated timeslines of AIT/AMT.

ANI and ASI i.e. Indigenous Stock Theory is just a theory and has no more credibility than AIT/AMT. Also, some of the presumptions in the AIT/AMT theory does not hold true if applied to other regions of the world, for example Native American people of South America.

The Vedic Age is believed to be later Bronze Age and Early Iron Age (1700 and 1100 BCE). The IVC, that existed since 7000 BCE, declined around 1300 BCE, which was the beginning of the Indo-Gangetic Tradition, and this time also coincides with the beginning of the composition of the Vedas.

Chronology: Indus Valley Civilization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There may be genetic similarities in people of northwestern India and the European stock. But that only establishes an affinity.

There are genetic similarities between people of northwestern India and the European stock, and it establishes a lot more than mere "affinity." Affinity means people liking each other. Just because people like each other (as you claim), does not mean people will automatically start to look like each other.

What remains to be seen is the direction. What was the lebensraum and to where the people migrated?
It is a known fact in Genetics, that if a genetic marker moves from place A to B and furthermore, then its haplotype diversity would be the highest at its origin - that is location A.
In case of these common genetic markers, the haplotype diversity is highest in northwest India. Meaning these genes originated in India.
Genetics gives the same picture again and again, whether you analyze human genes or even animals such as cows.

A region having the highest haplotype indicates that those genes originated there? How? I doubt this is a known fact, but I could be wrong. Please share with me any research article that explains how and why this genetic marker moving from place A to B will show diversity in A?

anthropologists have found 2000 bc remains of caucasoid type in karnataka ( AIT OR AMT begins in 1500 bc).

No, it began much earlier than that.

Migration of Proto-Indo-Iranian speakers to and within Northwestern parts of South Asia is consequently presumed to have taken place in the Middle to Late Bronze Age, contemporary to the Late Harappan phase (ca. 1700 to 1300 BCE). Linguistics has been the primary basis of Aryan Immigration theories; no evidence of massive migration has been found through examination of skeletal remains.[8][9][10]

Source: Indo-Aryan migration theories - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

as you rightly said , the area around west UP, haryana and punjab are perhaps the places where such features originated.

What you said is just a guess, and no one knows for sure.

Craniometric data showed similarity with prehistoric peoples of the Iranian plateau and Western Asia,[11] although Mohenjodaro was distinct from the other areas of the Indus Valley.[12]

Source: Indo-Aryan migration theories - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Furthermore:

The name "Iran", which in Persian means "Land of the Aryans", has been in native use since the Sassanian era, in antiquity. The country is home to one of the world's oldest civilizations.[17] The first dynasty in Iran formed during the Elamite kingdom in 2800 BC.

Source: Iran - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Virendra]

A region having the highest haplotype indicates that those genes originated there? How? I doubt this is a known fact, but I could be wrong. Please share with me any research article that explains how and why this genetic marker moving from place A to B will show diversity in A?

It is the other way round. Diversity shows direction, instead of direction telling about diversity.
More haplotype diversity of a genetic component in location A as compared to B; will show that the component in A is older than B.
Shared and Unique Components of Human Population Structure and Genome-Wide Signals of Positive Selection in South Asia

...Combining our results with other available genome-wide data, we show that Indian populations are characterized by two major ancestry components, one of which is spread at comparable frequency and haplotype diversity in populations of South and West Asia and the Caucasus. The second component is more restricted to South Asia and accounts for more than 50% of the ancestry in Indian populations. Haplotype diversity associated with these South Asian ancestry components is significantly higher than that of the components dominating the West Eurasian ancestry palette. Modeling of the observed haplotype diversities suggests that both Indian ancestry components are older than the purported Indo-Aryan invasion 3,500 YBP...

....If the k5 light green ancestry component (Figure 2B) originated from a recent gene flow event (for example by a demic diffusion model) with a single center of dispersal where the underlying alleles emerged, then one would expect different levels of associated haplotypic diversity to suggest the point of origin of the migration.....

.....we found that haplotypic diversity of this ancestry component is much greater than that of those dominating in Europe (k4, depicted in dark blue) and the Near East (k3, depicted in light blue), thus pointing to an older age of the component and/or long-term higher effective population size (i.e. indigenous evolution of people).....

.....our current results indicate that the often debated episode of South Asian prehistory, the putative Indo-Aryan migration 3,500 years ago falls well within the limits of our haplotype-based approach (mini12,500 BYP). We found no regional diversity differences associated with k5 at K = 8. Thus, regardless of where this component was from (the Caucasus, Near East, Indus Valley, or Central Asia), its spread to other regions must have occurred well before our detection limits at 12,500 years. Accordingly, the introduction of k5 to South Asia cannot be explained by recent gene flow, such as the hypothetical Indo-Aryan migration...

Both k5 and k6 ancestry components that dominate genetic variation in South Asia at K = 8 demonstrate much greater haplotype diversity than those that predominate in West Eurasia. This pattern is indicative of a more ancient demographic history and/or a higher long-term effective population size underlying South Asian genome variation compared to that of West Eurasia...

South Asian genetic diversity is 2nd in the world, next only to Africa, mainly due to long periods of indigenous development of lineages and with complex population structure where one can see the different caste and tribal populations.
-----------------------------------------------

New research debunks Aryan invasion theory - India - DNA
....According to Prof Singh, Dr Chaubey, and Dr Kumarasamy Thangaraj, another member of the team, the findings disprove the caste theory prevailing in India. interestingly, the team found that instead of aryan invasion, it was indians who moved from the subcontinent to europe. "That's the reason behind the findings of the same genetic traits in eurasiain regions," said Dr Thangaraj, senior scientist, CCMB....
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Genomic view on the peopling of India http://www.investigativegenetics.com/content/pdf/2041-2223-3-20.pdf
No support for the Aryan invasion
Even though there is a continued debate on the Aryan migration into India, detectable gene flow from west Eurasia has been shown by many studies[13,16,23,24,30-32,44,51,53].
Interestingly, we have detected gene flow from the west prior to the Aryan invasion[30,32].
There is now universal agreement that various Indian populations share a common late Pleistocene
maternal and paternal ancestry, along with detectable east and west Eurasian ancestries [31,54].
Using hundreds of thousands of autosomal markers, we illustrated that the Indian populations have two major distinct ancestry components; one restricted to southern India, the second one restricted to the northern region of India [30,32].
It is noteworthy that both of the ancestry components show higher haplotypic diversity than those predominant
in west Eurasia [32].
This rejects the idea of an Aryan invasion/migration and suggests an ancient demographic history and/or higher long-term larger effective population size in India than in west Eurasia......
....
....
Recently, archaeological evidence supporting the early peopling of India was discovered in the Kurnool district of Andhra Pradesh, one of the southern Indian states [9,10].
This study shows that the country was inhabited by modern humans before and after the Toba eruptionaround 74,000 YBP.
The evidence is in the form of stone tools. The stone tools of this study most likely resemble contemporaneous Homo sapiens technologies in Africa.
Further, a partial cranium recovered from Narmada Basin was dated back to around 300,000 to 250,000 YBP [11,12]....
---------------------------------------------

Thangaraj, Metspalu and others conclude that the shared genetic affinity between the ANI component of northern India and west Eurasia was dated atleast 12500 YBP and thus definitely prior to the supposed Aryan migration.

Regards,
Virendra

 

[civfanatic]

My premise is more likely though because while in a utopia, the caste system might have been fairly flexible, in the real world, it would be fair to assume that once a power structure had been established, the elites in that power structure would not have willingly given up their place in society.

What 'power structure' are you talking about? India in the so-called Vedic Age when the so-called Aryans established themselves socially had no formal power structure. There were no states during the Vedic period, just a bunch of feuding tribes. The caste system developed only with the rise of states and social stratification, which began in North India only several centuries after the supposed Aryan migrations or invasions began. In South India and the Deccan, states did not truly emerge until the 2nd-1st centuries B.C.E.

I disagree. We find many examples of caste discrimination in the Mahabharata, which first appeared around 500 BC.

The Mahabharata in its current form only dates to the Gupta period at the earliest.

Now this is something for which there is no objective evidence. What you're postulating is that different castes or communities had differing standards of beauty, because that is the only reason why such physical traits would have been preferred by those communities. I find that highly unlikely. Although beauty as a concept is fairly flexible over time, generally at a fixed point in time and in a specific society, the idea of beauty is the same.

That's assuming that only Brahmins found fair skin and coloured eyes attractive, while the rest of society found dark skin attractive. Extremely unlikely to say the least, and in fact, when we look at the proliferation of genotypes associated with blonde hair and fair-skin in Europe, your position is on the opposite end of the spectrum.

The Brahmins may or may not have had different standards of beauty compared to the rest of the population, but that's besides the point.

During the chaos of the Vedic Period, there were probably frequent clashes between tribes over cattle, slaves, and women (the "wealth" of those days). Naturally, some tribes would emerge more superior than others over the course of these clashes, and be accorded more prestige and glory than others. The Vedic Period was one in which personal bravery/heroism was praised and warfare glorified, and the greatest of warriors and tribes would be reflected in the oral traditions. This is clear from the frequent allusions to war and militaristic overtone of the earliest Indian literature. This was hardly unusual to early India and can be observed in plenty of other societies where militaristic tribalism reigns supreme, such as the Celtic and Germanic societies in ancient Europe as well as many Sub-Saharan African societies.

It is my belief (and I could be wrong) that Indian castes evolved out of these tribes, and that the caste hierarchy reflected the graded prestige of the various tribal groups in pre-state times. So the higher castes (Brahmins and Kshatriyas) were the descendants of the most powerful and most prestigious tribes and the lesser castes were the descendants of the lesser tribes. When the caste system began to take shape with the rise of organized states in North India, these positions became gradually "ossified" and endogamous. Obviously, it was in the interest of the upper castes, who now controlled political and social institutions in a state-level society, to preserve their hold on power. The ideology of Brahmanism, which grew out of the Vedic tribal religion(s) and which forms much of the basis of modern "Hinduism", represented the natural convergence of interest between the Brahmins and Kshatriyas. The Kshatriyas would rule and exercise political power, while the Brahmins would legitimize their rule and maintain control over society through religion. It was a brilliant and symbiotic system (at least for the elites) and one which lasted for millennia.

Now, going back to the fair skin. During the Vedic Age, when rigid social hierarchies did not exist, intermarriage between different groups of people was probably not as frowned upon as they later were. We know that polygamy was rampant among the Vedic tribes, and especially among the more powerful groups and individuals. Thus, if my hypothesis of the upper castes being descendants of the most powerful tribes is true, then the members of these tribes (the predecessors of the modern brahmins) probably had large numbers of wives as a sign of their power and prestige. And in addition to number, they would also have the choice of the most beautiful women, who might even have been looted from the weaker tribes in the not-so-infrequent clashes. Thus, some traits might have become concentrated among them in due course.

Obviously, not all brahmins are fair-skinned and not all shudras are dark-skinned. But this hypothesis might at least partially explain why there is a somewhat higher distribution of traits in one group compared to others.

Every case has exceptions. You are pointing out the exceptions, I am pointing out a trend.

You still have not explained why the exceptions exist at all.

 

[mikhail]

i want to share an interesting fact regarding the origin of the Bengali Brahmin communnity which i read sometime ago.

Haplogroup R1a1 [edit]
Main article: Haplogroup R1a1 (Y-DNA)
In South Asia R1a1 has been observed often with high frequency in a number of demographic groups.[28][29] Its parent clade Haplogroup R1a is believed to have its origins in the Indus Valley or the Eurasian Steppe,[30] whereas its successor clade R1a1 has the highest frequency and time depth in South Asia, making it a possible locus of origin.[31] [32] [33] However, the uneven distribution of this haplogroup among South Asian castes and tribal populations makes a Central Eurasian origin of this lineage a strong possibility as well.[11][12]
India [edit]
In India, high percentage of this haplogroup is observed in West Bengal Brahmins (72%) [28] to the east, Konkanastha Brahmins (48%) [28] to the west, Khatris (67%)[34] in north and Iyengar Brahmins (31%)[28] of south. It has also been found in several South Indian Dravidian-speaking Tribals including the Chenchu (26%)[35] and Valmikis of Andhra Pradesh as well as the Kallar of Tamil Nadu suggesting that M17 is widespread in these Southern Indians tribes.[35]
Besides these, studies show high percentages in geographically distant groups in India such as Manipuris (50%)[34] in the extreme North East and in Punjab (47%)[35] to the extreme North West.

Genetics and archaeogenetics of South Asia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Genetics [edit]

Bengali Brahmins showed positive results for only three Y-Haplogroups R1a1, R2a and H1. Y-Haplogroups and their respective percentages are shown in the following table.
R1a1 R2a H1
72.22% 22.22% 5.56%
[21][22]
Haplogroup R1a1, which has originated either in South Asia[23][24][25] or Central Asia[26][27] or Eastern Europe[28] is the most prevalent haplogroup amongst the Bengali Brahmins. The haplogroup is associated with the spread of the Indo-European culture in Indian sub-continent. A very high percentage of 72.22% among Bengali Brahmins which is also one of the highest found frequencies within world groups hints at its presence as a founder lineage for this caste group.[29]

 

[pmaitra]

I agree with the hypothese you have presented in the rest of your post. Now to explain the following:

You still have not explained why the exceptions exist at all.

We can explain why exceptions exist by assuming the entire sample (of people from caste "A") represents a normal distribution, where the x-axis represents skin complexion. Exceptions exist because there are some examples (small) that lie beyond the first or second standard deviations, and trends exist because there are examples (large) that lie between the first or second standard deviations, and closer to the mode.

 

[pmaitra]

i want to share an interesting fact regarding the origin of the Bengali Brahmin communnity which i read sometime ago.

Genetics and archaeogenetics of South Asia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Bengali Brahmins are to a large extent imported, during post-Buddhist Brahmanic Renaissance. Some were imported from North India (Pashchatya, essentially from the West), while some were imported from South India (Dakshinatya).

 

[trackwhack]

No not at all, am a proud Delhite. Location: 011

So, you also have that false sense of pride associated with being an indian in india. i suppose it comes with knowing that you need not have been here. we are all egoistic imbeciles afterall.

 

[mikhail]

Bengali Brahmins are to a large extent imported, during post-Buddhist Brahmanic Renaissance. Some were imported from North India (Pashchatya, essentially from the West), while some were imported from South India (Dakshinatya).

so that makes you and me both technically non-bengalis,i guess!but the important part is that not all Bengali Brahmins were imported from outside as you can clearly see the physical distinction among the bengali brahmins,i mean some of us are fair skinned and have lighter eyes while there are many among us who are pretty dark skinned and have physical features which are commonly found in the indigenous tribes of Bengal.all of these explain a possibility that at some point of time in the past some powerful clans of indigenous people also got elevated to the Brahmin caste just because of their influence on the Brahmins and the ruling class and hence today's Bengali brahmins are pretty much the result of that inter-mixing of both of them!

 

[LordOfTheUnderworlds]

Some points about possible ways of genetic mixing so far not discussed:

In India a person's caste is defined by caste of the father. In ancient texts we frequently see stories of a Brahmin, or a sage whose caste is ambiguous, or a prince; marrying some tribal woman or a fisherman's daughter.

It was not unusual for someone from upper castes to be declared outcaste for some petty issue, breaking social codes, some crime, or alleged misconduct. AFAIK many lower castes claim origin from upper castes in this manner.

Also for lower castes, accepting some upper caste person into their caste, especially a woman, should not be very difficult (whether it is the runaway lovebirds, a widow/orphan or a woman from a family declared outcastes, or maybe who knows, even a kidnapped woman). In fact it could be a prized trophy for the family as well as tribe.

For all the strict endogamy norms, the rules can always be bent according to convenience especially when when we are talking about thousands of years period with a wide geographical area.
Even today we can see the bizarre examples where in haryana the infamous caste panchayats strictly enforce the marriage laws and the the same people because of skewed sex ratio are 'importing' brides from faraway states. So we have a state/community where couples can be lynched for 'love marriage' against will of parents and community guidelines, and at the same time, at the same place, the same people are buying brides from different caste/tribe from other corner of India, because woman's job is to serve the man and his family and produce children who will get the identity of father.

when different communities are living in the same village/city and interacting with, each other, for such a long time, there are bound to be some extramarital affairs and children of love without anyone even knowing about it.

A locally dominant shudra caste can occasionally become too rich and powerful and claim kshatriya status- if necessary bribing recordkeepers to create a fake geneology - and thus opening floodgates for genetic mixing with other kshatriya castes.

Basically real life is different than what the lawbook says and there are numerous possible mechanisms for genetic mixing between different castes living together, and even if we believe each of such examples to be sporadic, their sum total over thousands of years could result in quite significant genetic mixing.