France Trumps UK as Strongest EU Power

[Armand2REP]

 

[LalTopi]

so are you going to tak over from the Brits in sucking up o the US ? hoe not :;

 

[Armand2REP]

so are you going to tak over from the Brits in sucking up o the US ? hoe not :;

Did we ever? Remember their whining about Iraq?

 

[TrueSpirit]

AFAIK, France was always, militarily & technologically, strongest power in EU. UK's position is EU is basically, due to its special relationship with US. Only Germany has the potential to equal France in EU but its internal polity & historical baggage does not allow its leadership to build upon that potential. So, Germany remains just an economic & technology power but France is the nation whose comprehensive national power exceeds every other nation in EU. France's relative position in EU is likely to remain unchallenged for several decades to come.

French self-reliance & autonomous conduct in most matters of foreign policy, defense, geo-political engagements & space, nuclear & propulsion technologies (unlike UK & Germany), despite remaining a key NATO member, is one of the several factors that makes it stand out in EU, as a power to be reckoned in its own right, & be respected.

 

[Yusuf]

If Germany was not limited like Japan post war, it would be one of the strongest military power on the planet. Nothing stops it from being one.

 

[TrueSpirit]

If Germany was not limited like Japan post war, it would be one of the strongest military power on the planet. Nothing stops it from being one.

That's close. Germany could have become militarily strong enough (if not for it's WW2 disastrous experience) but nowhere close to being the "strongest military power on the planet". They simply never had enough human & natural resources to do so. Especially now, most countries in EU, especially Germany, are demographically challenged & situation is only going to worsen, along with accelerating influx of Turks & East Europeans to compensate for declining workforce.

 

[hello_10]

heavy cuts in defence expenditure they made to cover budget deficit, then how will it really mean to help Britain to make it a power, which itself made many defence expenditure cuts to reduce debt borrowing?

in place of helping others to become a power, these so called EU's powers have to help themselves first :thumb:

 

[Yusuf]

That's close. Germany could have become militarily strong enough (if not for it's WW2 disastrous experience) but nowhere close to being the "strongest military power on the planet". They simply never had enough human & natural resources to do so. Especially now, most countries in EU, especially Germany, are demographically challenged & situation is only going to worsen, along with accelerating influx of Turks & East Europeans to compensate for declining workforce.

I said one off the strongest.

Even today its technically a very powerful military minus the nukes which if can easily make should it chose to.

Industrially we all know it needs no introduction

 

[TrueSpirit]

I said one off the strongest.

Even today its technically a very powerful military minus the nukes which if can easily make should it chose to.

Industrially we all know it needs no introduction

Yeah, I read it but since "one of the strongest" is also a relative term, so I chose to comment on it.

If we look at the future, maybe, 2-3 decades from now, I doubt we would ever see Germany's name is the list of top 8 powers (Top 10? maybe yes). & I am not even considering its limited geopolitical clout (e.g. not being a Permanent member of UN Security Council, etc.). I am basically considering comprehensive national power where demographic advantage plays a superlative role & an ageing population is a liability. So, I would place my bets on these nations (in obvious order):

US, China, Russia, India, France, UK, Korea, Japan, Brazil & 10th position would be vied between: Germany, Turkey, Indonesia & South Africa.

So, in my view (could be wrong) Germany would not become "one of the strongest powers", even if it wants to. Neither the present nor the future belongs to Germany, despite its immense advantages.

 

[Payeng]

being the 51st state it have its own pros and cons.

 

[Armand2REP]

Germany has a strong economy and high industrial capacity, but it doesn't have the MIC or political will to become a global power like France. If it did ever find the balls again to want that goal, they could do it with a half trillion investment into the MIC and several decades of development. The only thing they truly are self sufficient in is land forces, which is the cheapest and easiest to do.

 

[TrueSpirit]

Well, I do not think it is just about MIC, because they still have decent ship building & excellent submarine building capabilities. Aviation & AeroSpace is definitely something where they lag behind France. I would say, it has something to do with soft power, as well. Something, the Germans could never comprehend or acquire in ample measure. & then squandered it all away (whatever little soft power they had) by their actions between 1933-1945.

Soft power like what UK had in pre-1945 era, US has today (1945-till date & counting) & France, too has in ample measures by their cultural activism on all fronts, counts & is a vital ingredient of comprehensive national power.

 

[LalTopi]

Britain sort of lost its way. firstly by kowtowing to the US in its so called special relationship. e.g. by condemning India after the Nuke tests just because the US wanted to condemn India. Yet now that the US sees it in its strategic interests to develop its relationship with India, the UK has lost out as it never developed any kind of relationship with India post the colonial era. France on the other hand, maintained its independent thinking by refusing to condemn India and reaped the benefits of that independence by developing military sales relationships. Secondly, Britain neglected its military and manufacturing industries in favour of banking, finance and service industries, so although it still has the likes of RR aerospace, these are few and far between.

The Germans, well they are like the Japanese - technologically and engineering savvy, but been pacified post WW2 experience. Shame, be good to have the Germans and Japanese play a stronger role against the rising belligerence of the Chinese.

 

[p2prada]

UK's spent far too much money into Afghanistan and Iraq and the bigger hit came from the economic crisis.

 

[Armand2REP]

Well, I do not think it is just about MIC, because they still have decent ship building & excellent submarine building capabilities. Aviation & AeroSpace is definitely something where they lag behind France. I would say, it has something to do with soft power, as well. Something, the Germans could never comprehend or acquire in ample measure. & then squandered it all away (whatever little soft power they had) by their actions between 1933-1945.

Soft power like what UK had in pre-1945 era, US has today (1945-till date & counting) & France, too has in ample measures by their cultural activism on all fronts, counts & is a vital ingredient of comprehensive national power.

Germany does build good SSKs, but that is a far cry from nuclear and they are heavily reliant on other countries for subsystems. Really they only have full competency in land forces.

Germany lacks the cultural influence of France never having acquired a long term Empire. They also don't like to loan or donate money, so soft power is lacking.

 

[pmaitra]

They also don't like to loan or donate money, so soft power is lacking.

Actually, Germany has been issuing plenty of IOUs over the past years, as part of keeping the EuroZone from complete insolvency.

 

[Armand2REP]

Actually, Germany has been issuing plenty of IOUs over the past years, as part of keeping the EuroZone from complete insolvency.

The Eurozone is not the area they have to worry about exhibiting influence, France and Germany rule that undisputed. We are talking about soft power as a foreign policy tool, not saving your own arse.

 

[pmaitra]

The Eurozone is not the area they have to worry about exhibiting influence, France and Germany rule that undisputed. We are talking about soft power as a foreign policy tool, not saving your own arse.

IOUs generate goodwill, just like giving easy loans, so I do see it as one way to exerting soft power. Germany does not need to save its posterior, given that it is Germany who is issuing IOUs.

 

[Armand2REP]

IOUs generate goodwill, just like giving easy loans, so I do see it as one way to exerting soft power. Germany does not need to save its posterior, given that it is Germany who is issuing IOUs.

If the Euro crashes, so will Germany = saving their arse. A global power uses their soft power in the developing world, that is where growth comes from.

 

[pmaitra]

If the Euro crashes, so will Germany = saving their arse. A global power uses their soft power in the developing world, that is where growth comes from.

You have a point.