France, Russia, and the Mistral Saga

Discussion in 'Europe and Russia' started by youngindian, Aug 4, 2009.

  1. youngindian

    youngindian Senior Member Senior Member

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    Russia in talks on buying French warship

    04/08/2009

    MOSCOW, August 4 (RIA Novosti) - Russia is discussing the purchase of a French Mistral-class amphibious assault ship worth between 300 and 400 million euros ($430-580 mln), a high-ranking source close to the talks said Tuesday.

    "Such talks are being held at the level of experts; the Russian side is represented by the Navy, the United Shipbuilding Corporation, and plants' representatives. In September we will provide a final conclusion for the Russian Defense Ministry," the source told RIA Novosti.

    Earlier a French business daily, La Tribune, said Russia is planning to purchase a Mistral class assault ship from France. The purchase, if successful, would be the first large-scale arms import deal concluded by Russia since the collapse of the Soviet Union.

    Russia first expressed an interest in bilateral cooperation with France in naval equipment and technology in 2008, when Navy chief Adm. Vladimir Vysotsky visited the Euronaval 2008 arms show in France.

    The admiral said at the time that the Russian Navy was interested in "joint research and also direct purchases of French naval equipment."

    According to military sources, the possibility of buying a Mistral class amphibious assault ship was discussed at the naval show in St. Petersburg in June this year.

    A Mistral class ship is capable of transporting and deploying 16 helicopters, four landing barges, up to 70 vehicles including 13 main battle tanks, and 450 soldiers. The ship is equipped with a 69-bed hospital.

    The Russian Kommersant business daily confirmed on Tuesday the possibility of the deal, but said Russian military experts were skeptical about it.

    "The Russian Navy lacks the means to finance even the production of corvettes and missile boats, let alone the purchase of large combat ships," the paper quoted Mikhail Barabanov, science editor of the Eksport Vooruzheny (Arms Export) journal, as saying.

    Ruslan Pukhov, director of the Moscow-based Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies, said "although the practice of arms imports will become more common in Russia in the future, the Mistral deal is rather questionable from a military standpoint, as well as Russia's hopes for the transfer of advanced technologies from France."

    Russia's current weapons procurement program through 2015 does not envision construction or purchases of large combat ships, so the possible acquisition of a French Mistral class ship is most likely to happen under the new program for the years up to 2020, which is still in the development.

    Russia in talks on buying French warship | Top Russian news and analysis online | 'RIA Novosti' newswire
     
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  3. A.V.

    A.V. New Member

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    France shows off cutting-edge navy ship in Russia

    France shows off cutting-edge navy ship in Russia - Yahoo! News


    Russian officials announced this year that they were planning to make their first arms deal with a NATO country by buying a French vessel like the Mistral, a 23,700-ton (21,500-metric ton), 980-foot (299-meter) vessel able carry more than a dozen helicopters able to haul hundreds of troops directly onto enemy territory.

    The head of the Russian navy has said that a Mistral-class vessel could put as many troops in Georgia in 40 minutes as the Russian Black Sea Fleet took 26 hours to land during the nations' August 2008 war. Moscow declared the Russian-allied breakaway Georgian territory of Abkhazia an independent nation after the war and sent thousands of troops there. Russia, Georgia and Ukraine all have Black Sea coastlines, as does Abkhazia.

    Russian media reports have said a Mistral-class ship would cost Russia up to euro500 million ($750 million). Officials in Moscow have expressed interest in buying licenses to build several more in Russia.

    Bruno Daffix, a spokesman for the French Defense Ministry's export and sales agency, described the ship as a "Swiss army knife" of military ships — able to carry helicopters, land forces, hospitals or refugees, among other things.
     
  4. jakojako777

    jakojako777 Senior Member Senior Member

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    I wonder why you using Yahoo news to start this thread when RIA (for example) regularly gives info on that subject.(I have posted one today )
    Do you find that Yahoo is more objective as any other Russian source or it is really the same for you?....
    I always find that Western sources tend to tarnish (at least little tiny bit) image of Russia when they write articles about Russia.
    True these days is not so much and not so often as it was in the past, but still...

    2nd point is - do you find that it might be still premature to start this thread simply be cause we don't know yet if Russia will buy ship or not ?...
    I've seen in RIA article that is expected when Putin's visit in December France to have final word on that subject....


    And while I'm at the subject I will ask you (as Russian) what is your personal opinion about Russia buying this ship?
    Regarding needs of army, timing, budget, Russian ship yards, future military strategy, politics etc.etc..

    In short with all pro and contra reasons what is well balanced judgment of all this in your opinion ?
    Positive and negative sides if any.......

    Thanks:thank_you2:
     
  5. jakojako777

    jakojako777 Senior Member Senior Member

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    [​IMG]


    LHD MISTRAL L 9013

    LHD TONNERRE L 9014



    The BIP multi-purpose carriers from the DCN are a family of amphibious ships based on a common design. This program known in France as the NTCD (Nouveau Transport de Chalands de Débarquement/ New LPDs) has been launched in 1997 by the DCN Internationale. This carrier can accommodate aircraft/ helicopters such as the AV-8B Harrier II, JSF and NH-90 NFHs. Four kinds of ship have been studied : the BIP 19, the BIP 13, the BIP 10 and the BIP 8. The aircraft will be used as a support for marines while helicopters & LCACs (Landing Craft Air Cushioned) will ferry freight and troops.

    Two ships will be built from 2002 by the DCN in cooperation with Les Chantiers de l'Atlantique, they will replace the Ouragan class LPD (Ouragan and Orage). The French secretary of defence Alain Richard confirmed the launch of the program during Euronaval' 98. In May 2000, the project has started, two ships the Mistral and the Tonnerre will be bought, and commissioned by 2004 and 2006 within the Naval Action Force based at Toulon.

    Starboard and aerial views of the NTCD. (DCN)
    Starboard and aerial views of the NTCD. (DCN)

    Specifications

    (US)(FR)
    Dimensions

    623. 36 ft (length)

    190 m (length)
    Range

    10 000 nm at 15 knots

    10 000 nm at 15 knots
    Machinery

    CODOG or CODAD

    CODOG or CODAD
    Speed

    21. 5 to 25 knots

    21. 5 to 25 knots
    Horsepower

    -

    -
    Washington displacement

    -

    -
    Displacement

    19 000 t

    19 000 t
    Crew

    270

    270

    1/ Aeronautical installations and carrier air wing

    The ship is steel hulled with a flight deck extending almost the full length of the vessel. An aircraft lift from the hangar below decks is fitted to the port side while the island is located on the starboard side. A second lift is situated in the centre of the deck just forward of the island. Next to this is a heavy crane immediately forward of the island.

    It will accommodate 20 NH-90s from the ALAT (French Army Light Aviation) or the French Navy and Eurocopter Tigers (ALAT). Our allies would be able to operate their V-22, AV-8B Harrier II, CH-53 or JSF from the ship.

    2/ Weapons and sensors

    Specific weapon and sensor have not been announced. However preliminary designs show navigation, air search and targeting radars, satellite (Syracuse system), UHF, VHF and HF communications and self defence systems. The latter are expected to include Mistral air-defence missiles (short range from the sides of the ship below the flight deck). In addition, a full range of aircraft weapons will be carried for air superiority and ground attack roles. Self defence systems (guns, countermeasures and close in weapon systems) are fitted on both sides of the ship below the level of the flight deck. Electro-optic sensors, radar systems and communications antennas are fitted to the island above and behind the bridge. Important command & control capacities are expected ; indeed, 150 operators should be aboard.



    3/ Amphibian capacities

    Comparison Siroco/ NTCD. (DCN)

    Landing craft will be used to ferry and make assaults ; the capacities are the following :

    * Either one LCU.
    * Or two LCACs

    Amphibious ships ferry and perform assaults. The BIP family allows for the loading and unloading of assault and transport craft in a covered dock with its opening to the sea at the stern of the ship. The internal deck, used for storing and transporting equipment, is usually strengthened to take VAB armoured vehicles and Leclerc heavy battle tanks. In addition, these large spaces can be used for carrying personnel - about 450 soldiers.

    A 60 bed hospital and 3 operating theatres have been planned.



    4/ Motorization

    Provided by two PODs (Porpulsion Drive). This system has been also adopted for the LPD Rotterdam (Netherlands) and the two brand-new British LPDs (Albion class).

    BIP

    Mistral - Nouveaux Transports de Chalands de Débarquement (NTCD)
     
  6. A.V.

    A.V. New Member

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    i know major russian ship building firms oppose the sales but as i have learnt from wiki and some other sources , russian navy needs major input in this class of large mass transport
    most of the Rogov/Ropucha ships are decommissioned.
    The Mitrofan Moskalenko is still active and the remaining 3 ships are far from the potential of a Mistral class ship.
    troop movement were severely hampered during the georgian conflict and most deployment was via land but the conflict taught the russians a lot of things and were they need to patch up right after they have started a major overhaul in all sectors including the airforce and navy and entered in JV with many nations
    this shows that russia is willing to learn and absorb in the 90s the technology became stagnant but now they are willing to match upto major powers and they can do it by co-operation while improving the self development this is a positive step for me

    a major parallel could be drawn with the uav development where russia ws lagging behind and yet sought co-operation from israel which was unimaginable before but now it shows that in the long term the goal is to improve and develop cutting edge stuff but learning and incorporating many quality tech from across the globe
     
  7. jakojako777

    jakojako777 Senior Member Senior Member

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    Very extensive and detailed explanation thanks:thank_you2:
    I would be happier with more subjective, personal approach
    (but than you might prefer to stick with something you consider facts and try to stay objective)
    I'm not so badly informed about subject - but than if we entering into the details.... I would like to hear from you - if and how this will affect Russian plans to have (+-) 5 new air carriers when it comes to budget?

    Also
    Yak 141 has been abandoned project so there would be no room to adapt these French heli-carriers for the STOVL planes...
    In short if Russia buys 1+ 4 (licenses) of this ship
    will there be any( if at all ) air-carriers built till 2020 regarding limited budget?
    Thanks:thank_you2:
     
  8. bhramos

    bhramos Elite Member Elite Member

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    French Mistral arrived to S.-Petersburg for Test Drive.

    French Mistral arrived to S.-Petersburg.

    French Mistral arrived to S.-Petersburg.
    Is this Test drive for customer?

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Is Russia in need or serious about buying French Mistral???
     
  9. bhramos

    bhramos Elite Member Elite Member

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    Few more pics of this gorgeous lady

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  10. Vladimir79

    Vladimir79 Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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  11. Vladimir79

    Vladimir79 Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    Putin is going to France today to work out the technical aspects. This thing is good as done from the Russian end. France just has to agree to a good deal of ToT. Ka-52s will be flying off the deck too. Hope I get some video of that.
     
  12. bhramos

    bhramos Elite Member Elite Member

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    Hope deal goes through.
    pls definatly get the video to share with us.
     
  13. bhramos

    bhramos Elite Member Elite Member

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    Ka-52 on Mistral at Baltic Sea

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  14. bhramos

    bhramos Elite Member Elite Member

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    Russia-France arms deal raises concerns for neighbours

    Russia-France arms deal raises concerns for neighbours

    A potential deal that would see France selling advanced military technology to Russia has been causing concern among former Soviet states.

    Moscow is said to be getting closer to buying from the French a Mistral-class assault warship - capable of transporting and deploying up to 16 helicopters, 13 battle tanks and 450 troops - costing between $600m (£368m) and $750m.
    But critics of the potential deal in nations neighbouring Russia - such as Ukraine, Georgia and the Baltic states - say it would dramatically increase the military threat from Russia, increasing tensions in some already difficult relations.
    Nika Laliashvili, of the Georgian parliament's defence committee, has said that Georgia "strongly opposes" the sale.
    Should Paris decide to go ahead with the sale, France would become the first Nato member to have chosen to sell advanced military technology to Moscow.
    'Serious danger'
    Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin discussed the potential deal during a recent official visit to Paris.
    "We are buyers, you are sellers," he told his hosts.
    "Whoever we buy it from, we will reserve the right to use it where and when we consider necessary."
    And Russian generals have said that, had they had such a warship during the August 2008 conflict with Georgia, they would have been able to reach its shores within 40 minutes - rather than the 26 hours the country's navy took after setting off from their base in the Ukrainian Crimean port of Sevastopol.
    But Mr Laliashvili said the deal would pose a "serious danger" to Georgia.
    And his comments have been echoed by Estonian Foreign Minister Urmas Paet.
    "Adding new military technology to the Black Sea... [would] not be a good idea," said Mr Paet.
    Concerns have also been raised in France itself.
    "If such a decision is made, we need to understand the long-term consequences it will have," Francoise Thom, an expert on the former Soviet Union at Sorbonne University in Paris, told the BBC's Ukrainian Service.
    "It's obvious that such weaponry would allow Russia to mount aggression against its neighbours," she added.
    "It looks like France is giving Russia a green light for new imperialistic wars."
    Starved of funds
    Meanwhile, Andre Glucksmann, a leading French writer and philosopher, said the deal raised the risk not only of attack, but also of blackmail by Russia.
    "The countries of the Black Sea, Caspian and Baltic Sea regions are nervous," he said.
    "Poland and the Baltic States should state their objections publicly, and Brussels should intervene to stop such a deal."
    Retired Russian naval officers acknowledge that the Russian navy is in a very poor state.

    The shipyard, which produced the majority of Soviet aircraft carriers and missile cruisers, is not even Russian; it is in Mykolayiv, in southern Ukraine.
    What remains of the Russian navy is estimated to be 20 times smaller than that of the US.
    Yet Russian manufacturers themselves oppose the potential purchase from France - suggesting Moscow would do better to invest the money in reinvigorating Russia's own military industrial complex, which they say has been starved of funds.
    Ukrainian Rear Adm Serhiy Blyznyukov, an adviser to the Ukrainian defence minister, said it was not clear whether Russia would deploy a Mistral-class warship to the Black Sea.
    The base at Sevastopol, he said, is lacking the required infrastructure - meaning Russia would have to station the warship at the base of its Northern or Pacific Fleets.
    But he acknowledged that in the longer term Russia could upgrade and modernise its facilities in Sevastopol.
    Another solution for Russia, he said, would be the creation of a new naval base at the Russian Black Sea port of Novorossiysk, where Ukraine hopes the current Black Sea fleet will be based after Russia's lease in Crimea expires in 2017.
    The Russian Defence Ministry said it was "continuing discussions" over whether to purchase a French warship. A decision is expected by the end of 2009.
    Source
    BBC News - Russia-France arms deal raises concerns for neighbours
     
  15. A.V.

    A.V. New Member

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  16. AJSINGH

    AJSINGH Senior Member Senior Member

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    why russia buying heli carriers when russia is good in making carrier by itslef? please explain,is it cheaper or something?
     
  17. jakojako777

    jakojako777 Senior Member Senior Member

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    There are 2 important factors (in my opinion)

    1st reason
    and the most important is that Russia wants to MODERNIZE their ship building
    that suffered lot after vanishing of USSR -
    they have suffered brain drain and 1 decade of economic crisis luck of investment


    they need even more modern European(French) ship building industryknow-how than "Mistral"
    They need more modern efficient approach to ship building than that ship !

    2nd reason
    is capacity of shipyards
    true carrier shipyard that did Soviet air carriers is now in Ukraine!
    and present capacity is not enough to build planned 4-5 air carriers (at the speed Russian ship yards build the ships) to build them till 2025
    so they try to find compromise that would also speed up process of building those ships by buying one in France (perhaps) ...


    .
     
  18. bhramos

    bhramos Elite Member Elite Member

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    French, Dutch enter Russian carrier bid


    MOSCOW, Dec. 23 (UPI) -- Spain and the Netherlands have joined France in the bidding to outfit Russia
    with a helicopter carrier.

    "Yes, we are holding talks, and not just with the French, but with the Netherlands and Spain, about the acquisition of a ship of this class," Russian navy chief Vladimir Vysotsky was quoted as saying by Russian news agencies.

    France is pitching its helicopter carrier Mistral, which last month sailed to St. Petersburg to convince the Kremlin to agree to what would be the largest arms deal ever signed with a Western country.

    Dutch ship maker Damen Schelde and Spanish shipyard Navantia would classify for such a huge project.

    But observers say the 650-foot Mistral is still favored to win the contract.

    The vessel is capable of transporting and deploying 16 helicopters, up to 70 vehicles and 450 soldiers, although troop numbers can be doubled for short-term deployment.

    Russia is eager to buy three or four Mistral carriers together with a license to build more of the ships itself.

    Russian navy officials began calling for the vessel earlier this year, frustrated with the time it took their Black Sea fleet to carry out amphibious landing operations in the war with Georgia.

    The ship has an estimated price tag of around $750 million and can deploy four landing barges at great speed. France would love to strike a deal with Russia, which has never purchased a foreign-made military vessel.

    The Mistral is armed with two Simbad missile launchers and four 12.7mm M2-HB Browning machine guns. Equipped with a 69-bed hospital, the Mistral carriers are integrated into the NATO Response Force and have completed U.N. and EU-led peacekeeping missions.

    Meanwhile, Russian newspaper Kommersant reports that Moscow will sell 20 MiG-29 fighter jets to Myanmar. The contract is worth around $570 million, the paper said, relying on information from an official with Russian weapons maker Rosoboronexport.

    Military-run Myanmar is under Western sanctions, but India, China and Russia are said to have delivered defense equipment there.

    French, Dutch enter Russian carrier bid - UPI.com
     
  19. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    Russia would do well to buy Mistral. It would quadriple their amphibous capability and added with Ka-52s an imposing attack platform. The real strength of Mistral is her command centre, with a big space and the latest digital battle management system, one ship per fleet could act as command for an entire theatre. I don't really know what they need it for since they won't get the ToT they want, but if they want power projection, they need Mistral.
     
  20. jakojako777

    jakojako777 Senior Member Senior Member

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    Russia has her own projects why she needs to spend so much money on something that can be made in joint venture or some other arrangement with some friendly country?


    [​IMG]
     
  21. bhramos

    bhramos Elite Member Elite Member

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    they need ToT for building for ship and ship building only and may be some sub systems, as they will use all their own helli's and defence or missile systems.
     

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