Flat Refusal: India Dismisses US Offer of F-16 Jets

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by WolfPack86, May 7, 2016.

  1. WolfPack86

    WolfPack86 Senior Member Senior Member

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    India's defense minister expressed that India is not interested in acquiring US F-16 fighter aircraft despite aggressive lobbying by Lockheed Martin.
    In what can be seen as a sharp denial to the US, India has dismissed a proposal made by Lockheed Martin Corp to build F-16 fighter jets in India.

    India's defense minister Manohar Parrikar said in Parliament, "The experience of flying against F-16 is what we require as we are not going to induct F-16, at least; as of now."

    The defense minister was replying to a query by a lawmaker who suggested that Indian fighter pilots should get first-hand experience flying F-16s during the ongoing Red Flag joint exercise in Alaska. Parrikar informed the Parliament that the most crucial part of the Red Flag exercise was acclimatizing the Indian Air Force to counter enemy planes like the F-16.

    "During the exercise, we are getting very crucial important data about flying against aircraft which are there in the stockpile of our adversaries. So we actually learn how to counter them."
    This statement by India's defense minister comes at the backdrop of US defense firm Lockheed Martin's desperate attempts to sell its F-16 fighter jets to India, either directly or by teaming up with Indian firms in the manufacturing process.



    Earlier this month, representatives of Lockheed Martin met Indian Defense Ministry officials to discuss the possibility of setting up the final assembly line in India. According to Defense Ministry sources, Lockheed Martin sought an opportunity to take part in the 'Make in India' project but no concrete proposal could not be finalized. Earlier this year, the defense minister announced that India would involve the private sector in establishing one or more fighter jet manufacturing units under the Make in India campaign.
    http://sputniknews.com/military/20160506/1039181348/india-us-refuses-f16-jets.html
     
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  3. Tactical Frog

    Tactical Frog Regular Member

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    That is funny ... and the Americans learn how to counter Flankers ;)
    Hopefully they won't share any of they learnt with Pakistan ? I don't think they would do that.
     
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  4. Mikesingh

    Mikesingh Senior Member Senior Member

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    Other than the F-16s what else can the Americans give? All their platforms are decades old except the F-35 which is turning out to be a lemon!

    The F-22 raptor is the only state of the art 5th gen stealth fighter they have but they cannot export them nor their super secret technology due to export restrictions. Their cost is prohibitive too. So that's out of contention. Thus, what can they give? Zilch!

    The only alternative is the SU-35, which is a 4++ generation aircraft employing fifth generation technologies. That makes it superior to all other 4th generation fighters now under development worldwide. In 2009-2015, thanks to these technologies, the Su-35 will dominate the world market, outperforming other proposed multi-role fighters.

    We have the basic infrastructure already in place and this aircraft is a winner all the way and can fulfill the QRs of the IAF and the Make In India initiative!

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
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  5. Bahamut

    Bahamut Senior Member Senior Member

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    Su 35 is a overkill ,we get similar performance Super Sukhio Upgrade,I would have preferred Mig 35 as it cheap and has advance technology but the MMCA has a unspoken rule ,no Russian Aircraft
     
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  6. Zebra

    Zebra Senior Member Senior Member

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    * Sir, the Su-35's platform is also decades old, if I am not wrong.

    As this says the story.............. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-35

    The Sukhoi Su-35 (Russian: Сухой Су-35; NATO reporting name: Flanker-E[N 1]) is a designation for two separate, heavily upgraded derivatives of the Su-27 'Flanker' jet plane.

    On top of it Su-27 itself has decades of history................
    First flight 20 May 1977
    Introduction 22 June 1985
    Produced 1982–present


    * Yes, it is true India has that basic infrastructure already in place.
    But still why they are lagging behind then ............?
    OR
    There must be something lacking in those infrastructure ......!
     
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  7. Bahamut

    Bahamut Senior Member Senior Member

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    The Su 35S which is being talked about is made in 2008 with production in 2009
     
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  8. Zebra

    Zebra Senior Member Senior Member

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    F/A-18 ASH is the best option for India.
    Not interested in F-16V.
     
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  9. Zebra

    Zebra Senior Member Senior Member

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    Sir, we are talking about platform of Su-35.
    Which is also decades old and we all know it.
    Nothing else.
     
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  10. Mikesingh

    Mikesingh Senior Member Senior Member

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    What is new in the Su-35? First off, the fighter will get an improved airframe, which will dramatically increase its service life to 6,000 hours, 30 years of operation (the time before the first test and recondition and the between-repairs period has been increased to 1,500 hours, or 10 years of operation).

    Aerodynamically it is similar to the Su-27. But unlike the Su-30MKI it will feature no canard fins. All the three channels will have electrically signaled control without mechanical cabling. The use of a new integrated control system (developed by MNPK Avionika Moscow-based Research and Production Association) simultaneously performing functions of several systems – remote control, automatic control, limiting signals system, air signals system, chassis wheels braking system – will enhance the fighter’s handling capability and maneuverability.

    Among the Su-35 design features, worth of note is the absence of an overhead brake flap, a standard characteristic of the Su-27. Its functions are performed by an active rudder. The Su-35 chassis has been reinforced because of the increased takeoff and landing weight of the aircraft. For the same reason, the front bearing has two wheels. The improved radar stealth reduces the reflectance of the Su-35 in the X radio waveband and in the angle range of ±60°.

    The “heart” of the aircraft

    Another important difference of the Su-35 from predecessors from the Su-27 family is the use, in its power plant, of new engines with an increased thrust. Those engines, known as 117S, have been developed by NPO Saturn Research and Production Association.

    In terms of engineering, the engines are substantially modified AL-31F production engines employing fifth-generation technologies. They use a new fan, new high and low pressure turbines, and a new digital control system. A provision is made for using a vectored thrust nozzle. The modernization has increased the engine special mode thrust by 16%, up to 14,500 kgf. In the maximum burner-free mode it reaches 8,800 kgf. Compared to today’s AL-31F engines, their capabilities will grow substantially, by 2 to 2.7 times. For instance, the between-repair period will grow from 500 to 1,000 hours (the operating period before the first overhaul is 1,500 hours). The designed period will vary between 1,500 and 4,000 hours.

    The 117S engines will be co-produced by Ufa-based Motor Building Association and Rybinsk-based NPO Saturn Research and Production Association. The first production 117S engines were delivered to KnAAPO in early 2007 for testing on the first experimental Su-35 aircraft.

    New onboard systems

    The distinctive feature of Su-35 is the employment of a new suite of onboard instruments. Its core is the information management system (IMS), which integrates functional, logical, informational and software subsystems into a single complex that ensures the interaction between the crew and equipment. The IMS includes two central digital computers, commutation and information devices and an indication system built on the “all-glass cockpit” concept.

    The core of the Su-35 cockpit instrumentation suite are two full-color multi-function liquid crystal displays of MFI type, a multi-function panel with a built-in display processor, a wide angle collimatory display on the windshield and a control and indication panel.

    MFI multi-function displays with a built-in processor measure 9 x 12 inches (diagonal 15 inches) and have a resolution of 1400x1050 pixels. They are intended for reception, processing and production, in a multiple window mode, of graphic, numeric, alphabetic and symbolic information.

    They also present televised information received from onboard TV sensors and impose on it synthesized numeric, alphabetic and symbolic information. Besides, they produce and send video signals in a digital format to the video record unit. The multi-function panel with a built-in display processor presents the required information and issues commands by pushing the buttons on the button array at any time in flight.

    The airborne collimatory display with a built-in processor monitors the space beyond the cockpit. The information is processed by control signals. The collimator angle of view is 20x30о.

    The onboard systems and armament in the new cockpit of Su-35 are controlled by buttons and switches on the aircraft control joystick and engine control levers as well as by a button array on multi-function displays. Thus the HOTAS concept is realized on this type of aircraft. The displays and some other avionics systems of Su-35 are developed by Instrument Design Bureau of Ramenskoye and affiliated companies of Tekhnokompleks Research and Production Association.

    “Eyes and ears”

    The core of the Su-35 armament is a new radar control system with a phased antenna array (Irbis-E). It features unique capabilities in terms of the target detection range. This is a development V V Tikhomirov Research Institute of Instrument Production. In design, this is an X-waveband multi-role radar with a passive phased antenna array (PAA) mounted on a two-step hydraulic drive unit (in azimuth and roll).

    The antenna device scans by an electronically controlled beam in azimuth and angle of elevation in sectors not smaller than 60°. The two-step electro-hydraulic drive unit additionally turns the antenna by mechanic means to 60° in azimuth and 120° in roll. Thus, in using the electronic control and mechanical additional turn of the antenna, the maximum deflection angle of the beam grows to 120°.

    Irbis-E radar control system detects and tracks up to 30 air targets, retaining continuity of space observation and engaging up to eight targets. The system detects, chooses and tracks up to four ground targets in several map-making modes with various resolution at a range of up to 400 km, without stopping to monitor the airspace.

    Irbis-E radar detects air targets with an absolute cross section of 3 m2 on a head-on course at a range of up to 400 km.

    Being an improvement on radars with a PAA, Irbis has much better capabilities: expanded (by more than twice) operating frequency band, increased from 70о to 120о target detection and tracking zone in azimuth, substantially (by 2-2.5 times) increased effective range, improved anti-jamming capability, etc. In this aspect, Irbis is comparable to the best foreign counterparts, outperforming most of the US- and Wes-European-made radars with passive and active PAA.

    The Research Institute has been developing Irbis since 2004. By now, the engineering prototypes of the system have passed the required bench trials. The first of them has been installed on the Su-30MK2 flying laboratory and is undergoing flight tests. The first flight of the flying laboratory with Irbis onboard occurred in early 2007 at Gromov Flight Test Institute. During the flight, the laboratory proved the superior performance of the new radar in the air-to-surface operating mode.

    Among other new onboard systems of the Su-35 is modern navigation and radio communication equipment, systems maintaining fighters operation in a formation and a highly efficient electronic countermeasures suite. The component package of the latter and its complementation with specific jamming devices can be determined by the customer.

    Armament

    In addition to the armaments onboard the modern Su-30MK, it is planned to additionally arm the Su-35 with new types of air-to-air and air-to-surface guided missiles, including long-range types. The maximum ordnance load of the Su-35 is 8,000 kg. This is placed in 12 weapon stations.

    SU-27 Flanker Cockpit

    [​IMG]



    SU-35 Cockpit

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    So it's really a totally different fighter we're looking at here! The SU-27 is pretty old school, a legacy fighter, but not the spanking new SU-35. Except the F-22 raptor, nothing else even comes close to it! Period!
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2016
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  11. Zebra

    Zebra Senior Member Senior Member

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    Sir, first you said about this............ All their platforms are decades old.
    And you preferred Su-35 for India.

    I tried to counter your point with your preferred aircraft's platform, that it is also decades old.

    Then you tried to convince that Su-35 has latest systems fitted in it.
    On other hand US aircrafts also has all the systems latest.
    Those four points you can see in quote, they are all latest in US aircrafts too.
     
  12. Bahamut

    Bahamut Senior Member Senior Member

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    S in Su 35S stands for Serial Production,Su 35/37 has many different prototype developed in test phase.
     
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  13. Mikesingh

    Mikesingh Senior Member Senior Member

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    So bro, what do you suggest? Which plane should India get for its make in India program?
     
  14. Navnit Kundu

    Navnit Kundu Pika Hu Akbarrr!! Senior Member

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    CNN will immediately discover that intolerance is rising in India.
     
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  15. kaboom!

    kaboom! Regular Member

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    boss, this post was for F-16(a single engine fighter plane) you jumped to Su-35(a dual engine air superiority fighter)...there's no comparison.
    as far as "make in India" jet is concerned......
    single engine......Tejas
    air superiority......FGFA is already in a comparatively much advanced stage of negotiation also, we have our very own AMCA to consider......need i say both are based on ADVANCED platforms:wink:
    There's no compulsion to have another new jet to be made in India.:biggrin2:
     
  16. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    Su35 would not be a candidate imo for a few reasons

    Not much to gain politically from ordering another Russian plane
    Already have the whole sukhoi line su30-Su50 only su35 missing

    Second it serves no strategic benefit since China has the. Plane and already reversed engineered it

    Third sukhoi still has not given tot for the su30 . I stil believe they are coming kits to be assembled but this maybe changing soon?

    F-16 never had a chance everyone around India has the f16 or knowledge of it . Pak with their own and their Muslim allies who have pak pilots and China thru pak and lavi program.
    Indians deep down inside despise the f16 from the time Reagan first gifted it to pak to start the indo pak arms race in 1982


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  17. Bahamut

    Bahamut Senior Member Senior Member

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    Here is article on Su 30MKI production
    HAL Nashik completes upgrade of first IAF Su-30 MKI aircraft
    2


    27 October 2014


    [​IMG]
    Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has successfully completed the upgrade of first Su-30MKI multi-role combat aircraft at its facility in Nashik, Maharashtra, India.

    The company test pilots will now fly the aircraft to validate its performance before handing it over to the Indian Air Force (IAF) next month, as reported by Business Standard.

    According to HAL officials, domestic upgrade costs far less than the amount charged by the original equipment manufacturers (OEMs), which is typically 35%-40% of the cost of a new aircraft.

    Former IAF logistics specialist wing commander Neelu Khatri said: "OEMs usually price new fighters reasonably, but make their money by charging heavily for repair and overhaul.

    "Establishing overhaul capability in India defeats this pricing strategy."

    An Indian Defence Ministry official said: "Nashik is the world's only overhaul facility for the Su-30MKI.

    "Potentially, it could get overhaul orders from countries like Vietnam, Malaysia, Algeria, etc, which fly variants of the Su-30."

    Leveraging its expertise in Su-30MKI production, HAL Nashik is now domestically manufacturing 31,500 of the 43,000 components that are integrated into the fighter jet, in addition partially indigenising its AL-31FP engines, which are built in Koraput, Odisha, India.

    "More than 51% of the Su-30MKI by value is currently made in India, a little more than the 49% agreed with Russia in the contract signed in 2000 to build 140 fighters in India."
    HAL Nashik facility chief S Subrahmanyan said: "More than 51% of the Su-30MKI by value is currently made in India, a little more than the 49% agreed with Russia in the contract signed in 2000 to build 140 fighters in India."

    As of August 2014, IAF had 200 Su-30MKIs in service, with each set to undergo upgrade after flying 1,500 hours or 14 years, whichever is earlier.

    Subrahmanyan said: "The MoD has sanctioned an overhaul capacity of 15 fighters per year; next year, we will overhaul ten to 12 fighters and then stabilise at 15 fighters annually.

    "We have already approached the MoD to step up capacity to 30 fighters per year, which will cater for our requirements into the 2030s."

    Of the 30 Su-30MKIs that will be upgraded each year, HAL will modernise 20, while the remaining ten would be overhauled at an IAF base repair depot.

    Developed by Sukhoi Design Bureau, the Su-30MKI is a long-range air superiority fighter designed to conduct a wide-range of air combat and ground-attack missions in all weather conditions.



    Su 30 MKI also has some Israeli and French components and I do not know if we are making it in India
     
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  18. saagar943

    saagar943 New Member

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    nope no american plane -- that open rule
     
  19. Zebra

    Zebra Senior Member Senior Member

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    Sir, that so called open rule has been changed now.
    OR
    It is in process to get change.
    If I am not wrong.
     
  20. Zebra

    Zebra Senior Member Senior Member

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    My two cents though.
    Gripen E/F.
    SAAB already offered JAS 39 E and price tag was $43 million each flyaway.
    It will be good if they prefer Gripen E/F rather than JAS 39 E.

    And correct me please.
     
  21. spikey360

    spikey360 Crusader Senior Member

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    Did you know, that the only deployed 5 gen fighter in the world, F22 Raptor, is also more than a decade old. So kindly stop this America=latest, everything else=vintage propaganda.
     
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