Fifth-Gen Fighter: India Asks Russia To Resolve Tech-Sharing, Costing

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by AVERAGE INDIAN, Nov 11, 2014.

  1. AVERAGE INDIAN

    AVERAGE INDIAN EXORCIST Senior Member

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    New Delhi, November 9
    In what could be a sign of fatigue in a long-lasting military relationship, India has conveyed to Russia that it cannot carry on with the proposed project to jointly develop and manufacture the next generation of fighter jets till Moscow addresses concerns about technology sharing and costing.

    India and Russia are on the verge of inking one of the biggest defence manufacturing deals to develop and produce the fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA). Its research and development (R&D) will cost $11 billion (Rs 66,000 crore) with India paying half of it. This will be followed by a potential $30 billion deal to make some 200 planes for the Indian Air Force. As negotiations have dragged on for four years since the FGFA was first announced, India has raised issues of technology; its transfer; New Delhi’s role in development of the plane and the actual per-unit cost of the plane.

    Top sources said there have been no answers from Russian delegations at routine talks — the last one being a few weeks ago — and it probably needs political intervention to sort it out. The matter will be slotted for discussion when Russian President Vladimir Putin arrives in New Delhi for the annual summit next month.

    Under the existing terms, it is pointless to even think of signing the R&D contract. There are some key sticking points for the IAF that are holding up its decision, said top sources.

    New Delhi says since it is paying 50 per cent of the cost, it should be doing half the work on the FGFA. At present, the Defence Ministry-owned public sector undertaking Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) — under the proposal — is mandated to do only 13 per cent of the work.

    India has asked Russia to convey the tentative cost on per-plane basis. Since six prototypes are flying, this would not be a problem. But so far, there has been no answer, a source said. The intellectual property rights of the plane would be held by Russia, which has so far, refused to fit HAL-supplied pieces without certification, meaning if India has to re-fit its own pieces, it will need the nod from Moscow.

    The Tribune, Chandigarh, India - Main News
     
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  3. sgarg

    sgarg Senior Member Senior Member

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    Re: Fifth-Gen Fighter: India Asks Russia To Resolve Tech-Sharing, Cost

    Tribune / Chandigarh lobby. Interesting way to operate by inserting an opinion piece in a regional newspaper.

    Russia says all issues are resolved. GOI says nothing. "Un-named sources" in "The Tribune" says the project is stuck.

    This is what the new defence minister is saying right from day one that projects are delayed due to lobbies.

    IAF must be removed from R&D phase. A serious mistake is to involve HAL at this point as HAL is not a serious R&D organization. The mistake in FGFA is that it should have been a collaboration between an Indian design bureau and a Russian design bureau. India needs to learn from Brahmos joint venture and replicate the model to other products.
     
  4. sgarg

    sgarg Senior Member Senior Member

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    Re: Fifth-Gen Fighter: India Asks Russia To Resolve Tech-Sharing, Cost

    The alternative is India designs its own fifth generation fighter. However India cannot do that as India does not have engines, and a lot of other technology needed. What option does India have??
     
  5. rohit b3

    rohit b3 Regular Member

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    Re: Fifth-Gen Fighter: India Asks Russia To Resolve Tech-Sharing, Cost

    To increase the defence spending, and cut down on useless imports.
    Offer lucrative packages so that more young talent join the Defence industry.
    India has a LOT of talent. It just needs to be dug into.
    With the current pathetic salary of DRDO employees, this young talent chooses other job offers instead.
     
  6. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    Re: Fifth-Gen Fighter: India Asks Russia To Resolve Tech-Sharing, Cost

    I knew this was coming. Maybe collaboration with the Japanese is in the pipeline?
     
  7. sgarg

    sgarg Senior Member Senior Member

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    Re: Fifth-Gen Fighter: India Asks Russia To Resolve Tech-Sharing, Cost

    Can you buttress your points with detail and numbers.

    The problem India has is very high social spending which is an outcome of type of polity in the country. The social spending keeps the social harmony.

    If you look at government budget, its is basically defence and social spending.

    The % allocated to science and technology and other developmental heads as % of total expenditure is declining, not increasing.

    The challenge before government is to do more with what the government has; as option to increase expenditure is not there.
     
  8. sgarg

    sgarg Senior Member Senior Member

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    Re: Fifth-Gen Fighter: India Asks Russia To Resolve Tech-Sharing, Cost

    Japanese. Abe is paying tribute to the Chinese emperor.
    China can block Japan's electronic industry by denying export of rare earth metals.
     
  9. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    Re: Fifth-Gen Fighter: India Asks Russia To Resolve Tech-Sharing, Cost

    Forget FGFA, when is India going to seriously think of making a wholly Indian made jet turbine? I don't care whether the technology is foreign, as long as all of it, including the raw materials, are from India.
     
  10. sgarg

    sgarg Senior Member Senior Member

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    Re: Fifth-Gen Fighter: India Asks Russia To Resolve Tech-Sharing, Cost

    I shall not go by what this Chandigarh based newspaper says. Let the defence minister or IAF chief say something publicly.

    If there is a serious problem with the FGFA program, then it is defence minister's responsibility to apprise the nation.

    The MMRCA and FGFA are very big and strategic programs. It is important that GOI handles these programs well.
     
  11. sgarg

    sgarg Senior Member Senior Member

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    Re: Fifth-Gen Fighter: India Asks Russia To Resolve Tech-Sharing, Cost

    Yes exactly. The kids jump up and down about salaries. I am certain there are enough kids available for the salary DRDO offers.

    India now produces 6 lakh engineers a year; and can employ only half of this number.

    Defence production needs major privatization. The state sector is killing indigenization.
     
  12. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    Re: Fifth-Gen Fighter: India Asks Russia To Resolve Tech-Sharing, Cost

    We also need legislation to de-criminalize plagiarism if it is for national interests. Anyone should be allowed to copy-paste as long as fills our gap in crucial defence technologies.
     
  13. power_monger

    power_monger Regular Member

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    Re: Fifth-Gen Fighter: India Asks Russia To Resolve Tech-Sharing, Cost

    Do you think Rare earth metals are actually rare? its actually otherwise. right now japan is buying rare earth metals from china because of cost. China has attempted to limit the export to japan by brining quotas in. This has prmopted japan to look for other sources like India. India by 2017 is expected to source 30% of japans rare earth metal.
     
  14. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    Re: Fifth-Gen Fighter: India Asks Russia To Resolve Tech-Sharing, Cost

    India is exporting rare earth to japan too now.
     
  15. sgarg

    sgarg Senior Member Senior Member

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    Re: Fifth-Gen Fighter: India Asks Russia To Resolve Tech-Sharing, Cost

    Well Abe travelled to Beijing so there must be some reason.

    "The problem that worries much of the world: China currently accounts for an overwhelming 97% of global production, and it has not been shy of using this dominance as a bargaining chip against other countries."

    Finding a place in the rare earths race - Livemint
     
  16. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    Re: Fifth-Gen Fighter: India Asks Russia To Resolve Tech-Sharing, Cost

    Japan is understandably sensitive about nuclear deals, considering it is the only victim of two nuclear attacks.

    What is mind boggling though, Japan wants to treat India as if it was India who had nuked Japan.

    We did sell them Uranium at one point, but they refused to sell us enriched Uranium back.

    I see this Japan thingy as a non-starter.

    India needs to stop exporting rare-earths to Japan, and instead, it needs to develop industries that use rare earths in India.
     
  17. sgarg

    sgarg Senior Member Senior Member

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    Re: Fifth-Gen Fighter: India Asks Russia To Resolve Tech-Sharing, Cost

    @pmaitra, developing electronic industry is not as easy as it sounds. India is not competitive in this area. India will need to protect local industry by way of tariffs for foreign products and incentives for local products if electronic industry has to prosper.

    Right now situation is opposite - local industry is in doldrums as its faces a lot of levies - official and unofficial while there are no import tariffs.

    The two monsters - land and labour - continue to dog local industry.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 10, 2015
  18. DingDong

    DingDong Senior Member Senior Member

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    Re: Fifth-Gen Fighter: India Asks Russia To Resolve Tech-Sharing, Cost

    Electronics Industry requires mammoth investment plus Government protection due to low operational margins. None of those biggies like Intel, AT&T etc could survive without government projects. India has got sufficient talent to produce all kinds of electronic chips including micro-controllers (we have already been producing micro-controllers for specific needs). If there is a scarcity of ideas then we can simply purchase few off-the-shelf designs from say, ARM. Some of our Super Computers run our own Made in India chips.

    Back on topic, India's issue is with metallurgy and Manufacturing Engineering which is still in infancy, we need to create a big talent pool, and be ready to STEAL when need arises. Playing saint is not going to help. Technology requires past experience, mere talent is not sufficient. Technology is not Science.
     
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