F-18 Advanced Super Hornet

[WolfPack86]

F-18 Super Hornet fighter aircraft

 

[WolfPack86]

F-18 super Hornet fighter aircraft

 

[WolfPack86]

F-18 Super Hornet fighter aircraft

 

[WolfPack86]

F-18 Super Hornet fighter aircraft

 

[WolfPack86]

F-18 Super Hornet fighter aircraft

 

[WolfPack86]

F-18 Super Hornet fighter aircraft

 

[Kay]

Unfortunately, I think we should take a closer look at this platform.
The current search for single engine fighters (F 16 vs Gripen) is meaningless. F-16 is a 40 yr old platform operated by Pakistan and Gripen E will be operational in 2023. - No good options but to wait for Tejas MK2. F-16 will kill Tejas MK2 and we will be pushed towards F35. Gripen can replace MK2.
F 18 is needed in strike role as Rafale is too expensive. Benefits of Rafale deal are technological - Meteor , western AESA and Kaveri revival - but too few numbers will give it a very niche role. Also, F-18 will fulfill Navy's demand for 57 planes. It si mainly CATOBAR but has been tested with STOBAR. It is not a threat to AMCA, which is years away. Boeing will cooperate with AMCA unlike Lockheed Martin - as they don't have a fifth generation plane. Navy's troublesome Mig29Ks can be transferred to IAF and replaced by Naval Tejas.

 

[Filtercoffee]

Unfortunately, I think we should take a closer look at this platform.
The current search for single engine fighters (F 16 vs Gripen) is meaningless. F-16 is a 40 yr old platform operated by Pakistan and Gripen E will be operational in 2023. - No good options but to wait for Tejas MK2. F-16 will kill Tejas MK2 and we will be pushed towards F35. Gripen can replace MK2.
F 18 is needed in strike role as Rafale is too expensive. Benefits of Rafale deal are technological - Meteor , western AESA and Kaveri revival - but too few numbers will give it a very niche role. Also, F-18 will fulfill Navy's demand for 57 planes. It si mainly CATOBAR but has been tested with STOBAR. It is not a threat to AMCA, which is years away. Boeing will cooperate with AMCA unlike Lockheed Martin - as they don't have a fifth generation plane. Navy's troublesome Mig29Ks can be transferred to IAF and replaced by Naval Tejas.

F 16 and F 18 are not going to happen due to our own fighter programmes; as a legacy fighter has to retire also. We can safely say the Indian fighters are extremely well designed and have similar envelopes or better, as compared to hostile nations. For the Navy it has to be MIG 29k as the transition to another type takes a Huge amount of time as we do not have it due to AMCA - N and Tejas MK - 2 N coming out of the lines quickly, which is confirmed.

 

[BON PLAN]

Unfortunately, I think we should take a closer look at this platform.
The current search for single engine fighters (F 16 vs Gripen) is meaningless. F-16 is a 40 yr old platform operated by Pakistan and Gripen E will be operational in 2023. - No good options but to wait for Tejas MK2. F-16 will kill Tejas MK2 and we will be pushed towards F35. Gripen can replace MK2.
F 18 is needed in strike role as Rafale is too expensive. Benefits of Rafale deal are technological - Meteor , western AESA and Kaveri revival - but too few numbers will give it a very niche role. Also, F-18 will fulfill Navy's demand for 57 planes. It si mainly CATOBAR but has been tested with STOBAR. It is not a threat to AMCA, which is years away. Boeing will cooperate with AMCA unlike Lockheed Martin - as they don't have a fifth generation plane. Navy's troublesome Mig29Ks can be transferred to IAF and replaced by Naval Tejas.

Mainly CATOBAR but also STOBAR.....
When you see that this heavy fighter( more than 13T empty) can only carry 7 or 8 tons of weaponry, I'm afraid in STOBAR the perf are very very limited. It's a old and fat horse. The plane of yesterday.

 

[Kay]

Mainly CATOBAR but also STOBAR.....
When you see that this heavy fighter( more than 13T empty) can only carry 7 or 8 tons of weaponry, I'm afraid in STOBAR the perf are very very limited. It's a old and fat horse. The plane of yesterday.

True...but it has a better availability than Mig 29Ks and is not a paper plane like Gripen M. Mig 29Ks have availability between 21 to 45%. What' s the point in having a plane that is not ready and unavailable during war?
Also, it has same engine as Tejas MK2 (and Naval Tejas).
Hopefully, it can be replaced later by AMCA - N.
Rafael M is too costly to buy or replace.

 

[BON PLAN]

True...but it has a better availability than Mig 29Ks and is not a paper plane like Gripen M. Mig 29Ks have availability between 21 to 45%. What' s the point in having a plane that is not ready and unavailable during war?
Also, it has same engine as Tejas MK2 (and Naval Tejas).
Hopefully, it can be replaced later by AMCA - N.
Rafael M is too costly to buy or replace.

Honestly, do we really know the real price of the two birds?

The 2016 flyaway cost of SH18 is nearly 98 $ million (source : Fiscal Year (FY) 2015 President's Budget Submission: Navy Justification Book Volume 1 Aircraft Procurement, Navy Budget Activities 1–4 )
The price of Rafale M is somewhere between 80 and 100 € million. Let's say 100 million.

It's a difference in $ of 10 to 15 % MAX. Is it too much to be crippling? Only India gov. and Navy admirals can answer.

And SH will not be integrated in the air force (if another west plane is integrated, it will be a sigle engine). So The Rafale option offer a promise of reduction in support costs and overhaul and training and spare parts bank....

 

[Kay]

Honestly, do we really know the real price of the two birds?

The 2016 flyaway cost of SH18 is nearly 98 $ million (source : Fiscal Year (FY) 2015 President's Budget Submission: Navy Justification Book Volume 1 Aircraft Procurement, Navy Budget Activities 1–4 )
The price of Rafale M is somewhere between 80 and 100 € million. Let's say 100 million.

It's a difference in $ of 10 to 15 % MAX. Is it too much to be crippling? Only India gov. and Navy admirals can answer.

And SH will not be integrated in the air force (if another west plane is integrated, it will be a sigle engine). So The Rafale option offer a promise of reduction in support costs and overhaul and training and spare parts bank....

We do not know the true costs - they are always negotiable in G2G deals. But it is a major factor in decision making.

Claimed lifecycle costs have to be properly evaluated after verification and the process has to be transparent.

There are other factors in decision making, like the progress on Kaveri.

Also, a lot of things that go on behind the public eye - India may want access to the ICF facility at Bordeaux for strategic reasons.

 

[WolfPack86]

Quick updates

1. Boeing is formally going to offer India F15SE or silent eagle in coming days..
2. That will be for IAF and F18 SH is for IN.
3. In return the AMCA and FGFA program will get delayed and better scope of development will be taking place.
4. Boeing is also offering to bring in it's expertise for a Joint engine program.
5. The planes will have only limited work done in India and max from USA

What I don't understand is why Silent Eagle is offered (since they don't have anythinv else to offer) since need is DPSA and offering is air superiority... And we have 272+ MKI for that role..
Note: Above statements written by parikrama an Indian defence forum member talking about Boeing offering F-15 Silent Eagle to India.
http://*****************/threads/rafale-deal-signed.56201/page-324

 

[Filtercoffee]

Quick updates

1. Boeing is formally going to offer India F15SE or silent eagle in coming days..
2. That will be for IAF and F18 SH is for IN.
3. In return the AMCA and FGFA program will get delayed and better scope of development will be taking place.
4. Boeing is also offering to bring in it's expertise for a Joint engine program.
5. The planes will have only limited work done in India and max from USA

What I don't understand is why Silent Eagle is offered (since they don't have anythinv else to offer) since need is DPSA and offering is air superiority... And we have 272+ MKI for that role..
Note: Above statements written by parikrama an Indian defence forum member talking about Boeing offering F-15 Silent Eagle to India.
http://*****************/threads/rafale-deal-signed.56201/page-324

In the end the U.S. is supporting our fighter programmes so it wouldn't matter if we select an american aircraft.

 

[WolfPack86]

Indian Navy will shortly select its Shipboard Combat Jet
June 2017

New Delhi. The Indian Navy is likely to select its next shipboard fighter in about six to nine months.

The Indian Navy is keen to induct the aircraft as fast as possible and that as the deal would for their acquisition would be a direct government-to-government one, the acquisition process and negotiations for them should begin by early next year.

The Indian Navy had issued a Request for Information (RFI) in January for 57 shipboard fighters to four companies, and all of them had submitted their responses by May-end as required. This was disclosed by the Chief of Naval Staff Admiral Sunil Lanba May 31 on the sidelines of the Naval Seminar.

He did not disclose the names of the companies but said that the Navy wanted to induct the new aircraft within a timeline of four to five years.

Authoritative sources however told India Strategic that the four aircraft being considered now are the French Rafale, US Boeing Advanced Super Hornet (new variant), Russian Mig 29K (Upgraded variant) and Swedish SeaGripen.

According to Ministry of Defence sources, the Navy has expressed preference for twin-engine jets. Except the single engine SeaGripen, all the other three are twin engine machines.
http://www.indiastrategic.in/2017/06/13/indian-navy-will-shortly-select-its-shipboard-combat-jet/

 

[BON PLAN]

Boeing is formally going to offer India F15SE or silent eagle in coming days..

for SE tender ? LOL

 

[Filtercoffee]

for SE tender ? LOL

LOL I just hope they give us as much support in the AMCA project as shown by the solidarity in our fighter acquisition programme.

 

[BON PLAN]

In the end the U.S. is supporting our fighter programmes so it wouldn't matter if we select an american aircraft.

Until they decide to stop that support if India doesn't comply to one of their rules.... ask UAE and Egypt for exemple.

 

[BON PLAN]

LOL I just hope they give us as much support in the AMCA project as shown by the solidarity in our fighter acquisition programme.

Where do you see some solidarity in your fighter acquisition program? First time I heard such idea.

USA giving solidarity Specially with Trump ! (america first... remember that)

 

[WolfPack86]

Boeing and HAL discuss building F/A-18 Super Hornets in India
The Boeing Company (hereafter Boeing), which is a vying strongly to supply the Indian Navy with 57 “multi-role carrier borne fighters” (MRCBF), has entered talks with Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) to explore the co-manufacture of its F/A-18E/F Super Hornet fighter in India, say credible sources in the defence ministry. Along with HAL, Boeing also intends to involve the Mahindra Group in building Super Hornets in India.

Boeing and HAL have already held exploratory discussions in Bengaluru in September and are scheduled to meet on Friday in Bengaluru for another round of talks. They will also finalise a “non-disclosure agreement” that binds all sides to keep their negotiations confidential.

Contacted for comments, a Boeing spokesperson responded: “HAL has been a key partner of Boeing for over two decades and today manufactures components for our commercial and defense platforms, including for the F/A-18 Super Hornet. We are continually exploring ways to expand that relationship. Needless to say, we cannot comment on specific discussions with our partners.”

The defence ministry and Mahindras did not respond to requests for comments. Boeing seeks to leverage HAL’s long experience in licence-producing aircraft in India, most recently the Hawk trainer, and Jaguar and Sukhoi-30MKI fighters; and to present the defence ministry with a clear plan for co-producing the Super Hornet in India with a high indigenous content.

This would provide the US aerospace giant valuable advantage over rival vendors who partner private sector firms that are novices in aerospace manufacture.

Furthermore, Boeing’s partnership with HAL — which already has an airfield and manufacturing hangars in Bengaluru — would significantly reduce the price of each Super Hornet. In contrast, a vendor that partners a private Indian firm would need to factor aerospace infrastructure into its pricing. Boeing has already expressed public reservations about the private sector’s inexperience in aerospace. As Business Standard reported (September 8, Boeing flags inexperience of private sector ‘strategic partners’) Boeing India chief, Pratyush Kumar, stated in New Delhi that the Indian private sector is not yet capable of manufacturing complex military aircraft under transfer of technology (ToT).

Urging India to co-opt public and private enterprise, Kumar said he “could not find a single example [of successfully building an aircraft under ToT] where it was just the brand new private enterprise with limited aerospace experience. Look at Turkey, look at Japan, look at Brazil, look at multiple countries. In all cases there is a fine balancing act of co-opting the capabilities of both public and private enterprise.” Now Boeing is doing exactly that, by seeking to co-opt HAL and the Mahindra Group into co-producing Super Hornets.

Boeing’s public-private strategy contrasts with the approach being followed by Lockheed Martin and Saab in a separate procurement of 114 single-engine fighters, which is expected to gather momentum shortly. Since the defence ministry requires the single-engine fighters to be built in India under the “strategic partner” (SP) policy, Lockheed Martin and Saab have both partnered private sector firms – Tata Advanced Systems Ltd (TASL) and the Adani Group respectively – to build in India. In contrast, the “request for information” (RFI) for the MRCBF acquisition, which the navy issued in January, predates the SP Policy that was promulgated only in June. Unlike Lockheed Martin and Saab in the single-engine fighter procurement, Boeing is not restricted to partnering only a private sector company.

The RFI for the MRCBF specifies: “GoI (Government of India) is desirous of license production of the aircraft after acquiring ToT in the case (sic).” While this appears to place the procurement in the “Buy and Make” category, the “request for proposals” (RFP) is likely to clarify this issue. Industry experts say the RFP might conceivably shift the acquisition into the SP category. The Super Hornet, which is the US Navy’s main carrier borne fighter, is likely to face competition in India’s MRCBF tender from French company Dassault’s Rafale-M fighter; Swedish company Saab’s Gripen Maritime, and the Russian MiG-29K/KUB that already flies off the navy’s lone carrier, INS Vikramaditya.

The India Navy has already bought 45 MiG-29K/KUB fighters from Russia to equip its current aircraft carrier, INS Vikramaditya, and the second aircraft carrier, the indigenously built INS Vikrant, which is expected in service by 2021. A new, more capable MRCBF was envisaged for the second indigenous carrier, INS Vishal, which is expected in service by 2030 or so. However, unacceptably low serviceability rates of the MiG-29K/KUB are making the MRCBF vital for the navy in a much shorter time frame. Furthermore, Boeing is looking at the supply of “Made in India” fighters to the Indian Air Force (IAF) too, beyond the supply of 57 Super Hornets to the navy.

The IAF, which is down to 32 squadrons of fighters against its requirement of 42 squadrons, had hoped to procure six-to-nine squadrons of medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) over the last decade. The Rafale was eventually selected, but then only two squadrons were procured, leaving a void that Boeing hopes to fill by establishing a Super Hornet manufacturing line in India.
http://www.defencenews.in/article/B...building-F/A-18-Super-Hornets-in-India-444566