European court rules against Russia on 1940 Katyn massacre

[pmaitra]

Hitler and Himmler it seem found good lessons, that they later applied in their "Final Solution," from this handiwork of Stalin and Beria...

I think Hitler was inspired by the Armenian Genocide, or so I read. One could, of course, speculate differently.

 

[asianobserve]

(deleted for being an old article)

 

[asianobserve]

I think Hitler was inspired by the Armenian Genocide, or so I read. One could, of course, speculate differently.

I was merely speculating...

 

[pmaitra]

Katyn Massacre, well, it was war. Not celebrating anyone's death, but the Soviets, having lost 26,000,000 of their own, aren't complaining as much as the Poles, and their Western crutches.

I think we should move on, and while we are at it, a kick in the butt or two for these stupid European courts, Hague, Tribunals, etc.. It's getting rather annoying.

 

[spikey360]

The European courts are a farce. Conjuring up ghosts of the past, incidents to which present population have no relation in anyway. Good job compiling all this pro-Polish, pro-Jewish bullshit, Asianobserve.

 

[pmaitra]

The European courts are a farce. Conjuring up ghosts of the past, incidents to which present population have no relation in anyway. Good job compiling all this pro-Polish, pro-Jewish bullshit, Asianobserve.

Anti-Russian, from my understanding, but then, I am no bias-free man.

No offense AsianObserve. You are doing a good job, and please do continue to present facts and your personal opinions.

 

[asianobserve]

Katyn Massacre, well, it was war. Not celebrating anyone's death, but the Soviets, having lost 26,000,000 of their own, aren't complaining as much as the Poles, and their Western crutches.

I think we should move on, and while we are at it, a kick in the butt or two for these stupid European courts, Hague, Tribunals, etc.. It's getting rather annoying.

I think this massacre still plays a crucial role in the present Polish-Russian relationship, and no doubt will continue to play an important role in the future.

 

[asianobserve]

The European courts are a farce. Conjuring up ghosts of the past, incidents to which present population have no relation in anyway. Good job compiling all this pro-Polish, pro-Jewish bullshit, Asianobserve.

I thought you were calling the punishment of Poland for its "sins" in the other thread? I asked what sins? Then I posted this thread just to expound my view on the matter.

As I said earlier this incident still plays a prominent role (there are other incidents no doubt) in the current European relations. I think only those distinctly naive and irredeemably pro-Russia will think that POlish insistence on the NATO ABM defense has nothing to do with it.

 

[pmaitra]

I think this massacre still plays a crucial role in the present Polish-Russian relationship, and no doubt will continue to play an important role in the future.

Maybe you are correct.

I have a different take.

The Poles, well some of them, want to get back at the Russians for keeping Poland as a virtual vassal for 70 odd years, while for the USSR, it was, "we lost 26 million people, we don't give a damn, we will kill as many of you people as we want, as long as we get to keep a buffer against the West."

Pragmatism and humanism do not always go together. Both have their own reasons. USSR was stronger, they did all they could, but then, their strength was achieved through a lot of blood and sweat.

 

[asianobserve]

Maybe you are correct.

I have a different take.

The Poles, well some of them, want to get back at the Russians for keeping Poland as a virtual vassal for 70 odd years, while for the USSR, it was, "we lost 26 million people, we don't give a damn, we will kill as many of you people as we want, as long as we get to keep a buffer against the West."

Pragmatism and humanism do not always go together. Both have their own reasons. USSR was stronger, they did all they could, but then, their strength was achieved through a lot of blood and sweat.

Do remember that the USSR has not yet lost 26 Million at the time of the Katyn Massacre as Stalin and Hitler were still buddies.

But you may have a point on Poland as a Russian buffer against European powers in the mind of Stalin. But I think aside from being a buffer the Soviets were also thinking of exporting their international brand of Communism to Western Europe via in Poland...

Also, the Polish whipped the arse of the Soviets when the latter invaded it in 1919. The Polish military leadership may have impressed the Soviets so much that they decided to eliminate them altogether in Katyn...

 

[pmaitra]

Do remember that the USSR has not yet lost 26 Million at the time of the Katyn Massacre... Stalin and Hitler were still buddies at that time.

Ok, I'll give it a second try. Read carefully.

• Poland wants to get back at Russia, the natural successor of the USSR, because USSR kept Poland as a virtual vassal.
• USSR kept Poland as a virtual vassal because USSR lost 26 million people, whether before or after Katyn massacre, it does not matter.
• Now what can Poland do to get back at the Russia? Find an excuse. So, they found one - Katyn Massacre.

Note: I did not say that USSR carried out the Katyn massacre because they lost 26 million. I never said that. That is what you interpreted.

Also, Russia has been invaded many times from the West, including once by the Polish-Lithuanian Confederation.

 

[asianobserve]

Pardon me, but I think you're not making sense mate. The Katyn issue is not a Post-USSR issue. The Polish government in-exile first raised it against Stalin in WW2.

The 26 million Soviet deaths were extensively used by Stalin in the negotiations for the make up of Post-War Europe.

 

[civfanatic]

One should study Russia's history in order to understand their mentality. While it may seem to the modern eye that Russia is fairly secure, being the largest country on earth and having a formidable military, historically Russia has been quite vulnerable, and it was not too long ago that even Lithuania was larger and more powerful than Russia. The Russians have a long history of being invaded by numerous powers and suffering incredible hardships, from the devastating Mongol invasion in 1240 to the Time of Troubles in 1612 when the Poles occupied Moscow to Operation Barbarossa in 1941. The result of this tragic history is a hardened psyche which puts the collective national interest above all else. The Russians, in their drive to achieve security, expanded their borders with dogged determination, resulting in the vast state that we know today. Stalin's actions in the 40s were merely a continuation of the policies of Peter the Great and Czarina Caterina.

 

[pmaitra]

Pardon me, but I think you're not making sense mate. The Katyn issue is not a Post-USSR issue. The Polish government in-exile first raised it against Stalin in WW2.

The 26 million Soviet deaths were extensively used by Stalin in the negotiations for the make up of Post-War Europe.

Ok, first of all, please re-read what I wrote in post #31.

Now, Katyn massacre happened in 1940, but this 'trial-and-court' thingy and declaring it as a war crime is a post USSR issue. It is happening now, right now.

Now why is Poland doing that? To get back at the USSR. Since the USSR does not exist anymore, they are putting the blame on Russia.

 

[Son of Govinda]

Now, Katyn massacre happened in 1940, but this 'trial-and-court' thingy and declaring it as a war crime is a post USSR issue.

"Unfortunately we have had to give up Katyn. The Bolsheviks undoubtedly will soon 'find' that we shot 12,000 Polish officers. That episode is one that is going to cause us quite a little trouble in the future. The Soviets are undoubtedly going to make it their business to discover as many mass graves as possible and then blame it on us." - Josef Göbbels

In private, Churchill agreed that the atrocity was likely carried out by the Soviets. According to Edward Raczyński, Churchill admitted on 15 April 1943 during a conversation with General Sikorski: "Alas, the German revelations are probably true. The Bolsheviks can be very cruel."[56] However, at the same time, on 24 April 1943 Churchill assured the Soviets: "We shall certainly oppose vigorously any 'investigation' by the International Red Cross or any other body in any territory under German authority. Such investigation would be a fraud and its conclusions reached by terrorism."[57] Unofficial or classified UK documents concluded that Soviet guilt was a "near certainty", but the alliance with the Soviets was deemed to be more important than moral issues; thus the official version supported the Soviets, up to censoring any contradictory accounts.

From 28 December 1945 to 4 January 1946, seven servicemen of the German Wehrmacht were tried by a Soviet military court in Leningrad. One of them, Arno Diere, was charged with helping to dig the Katyn graves during the execution. Diere, who was accused of murder using machine-guns in Soviet villages, confessed to having taken part in burial (though not the execution) of 15–20 thousand Polish POWs in Katyn. For this he was spared execution and was given 15 years of hard labor. His confession was full of absurdities, and thus he was not used as a Soviet prosecution witness during the Nuremberg trials. In a note of 29 November 1954 he recanted his confession, claiming that he was forced to confess by the investigators.[64]
At the London conference that drew up the indictments of German war crimes before the Nuremberg trials, the Soviet negotiators put forward the allegation, "In September 1941, 925 Polish officers who were prisoners of war were killed in the Katyn Forest near Smolensk." The U.S. negotiators agreed to include it, but were "embarrassed" by the inclusion (noting that the allegation had been debated extensively in the press) and concluded that it would be up to the Soviets to sustain it.[65] At the trials in 1946, Soviet General Roman Rudenko, raised the indictment, stating that "one of the most important criminal acts for which the major war criminals are responsible was the mass execution of Polish prisoners of war shot in the Katyn forest near Smolensk by the German fascist invaders,"[66] but failed to make the case and the U.S. and British judges dismissed the charges.[67] It was not the purpose of the court to determine whether Germany or the Soviet Union was responsible for the crime, but rather to attribute the crime to at least one of the defendants, which the court was unable to do.[68]

Katyn massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[asianobserve]

Ok, first of all, please re-read what I wrote in post #31.

Now, Katyn massacre happened in 1940, but this 'trial-and-court' thingy and declaring it as a war crime is a post USSR issue. It is happening now, right now.

Now why is Poland doing that? To get back at the USSR. Since the USSR does not exist anymore, they are putting the blame on Russia.

Okay, I get what you mean now. But Polish action is only logical as Russia is legally the successor-in-interest of the former USSR.

 

[pmaitra]

Okay, I get what you mean now. But Polish action is only logical as Russia is legally the successor-in-interest of the former USSR.

 

[asianobserve]

I am perfectly capable of admitting oversight. Thank you.

Anyway, to put things into perspective for our friend Son of Govinda, I reposted below the CCP Politburo order for the shooting of the POlish prisoners which was handed by former Russian President Yeltsin to the Polish government in 1992 during their brief period of rapprochement.

 

[pmaitra]

^^

I have seen that document many times, but thanks for posting.

BTW, could you summarize what it says? I don't understand Russian.

Edit:

Headline says: All-Union Communist Party (Bolshevik), Central Committee.
Underlined in red: Prisoners-of-War
Signed: Secretary of Central Committee

 

[asianobserve]

From KATYN MEMORIAL WALL - Soviet Politburo's Resolution of March 5, 1940

"STRICTLY CONFIDENTIAL

All-Union Communist Party (Bolsheviks). CENTRAL COMMITTEE

No. P13/144.
Com. Beria.
March 5, 1940

Excerpt from the minutes No. 13 of the CC Politburo's meeting

Resolution of March 5, 1940

144. - the matter from the NKVD USSR.

I. Instruct the NKVD USSR:

1) the cases of 14 700 people remaining in the prisoner-of-war camps - former Polish Army officers, government officials, landowners, policemen, intelligence agents, military policemen, settlers and jailers,
2) and also the cases of arrested and remaining in prisons in the western districts of Ukraine and Belorussia people in the number of 11 000 - members of various counter-revolutionary spy and sabotage organizations, former landowners, factory owners, former Polish Army officers, government officials and fugitives - to be considered in a special manner with the obligatory sentence of capital punishment - shooting.

II. The consideration of the cases to be carried out without the convicts being summoned and without revealing the charges; with no statements concerning the conclusion of the investigation and the bills of indictment given to them. To be carried out in the following manner:

a) people remaining in the prisoner-of-war camps - on the basis of information provided by the Directorate of Prisoner-of-War Affairs NKVD USSR,
b) people arrested - on the basis of case information provided by the NKVD of the Ukrainian SSR and NKVD of the Belorussian SSR.

III. The responsibility for consideration of the cases and the passing of the resolution to be laid on a troika that consists of C. C. Merkulov, Kobulov and Bashtakov (Head, 1st Special Division of the NKVD USSR).

The Secretary of the CC"