Dissolution of the SU and what can we learn from it.

[Razor]

There certainly isn't just one reason for the dissolution of the Soviet union (SU from now on)
It involves several factors of varying severity coming together to that end.

What in your opinion are some of these factors. Elaborate a bit on then.

Also what is the extent & implications of these factors manifesting in countries like India, China & others.

There isn't just one right answer, coz it's a subjective matter.
This is a thread for learning, from history & elsewhere.

 

[Razor]

@Project Dharma @aditya10r @dhananjay1 @thethinker @Haldiram @Dovah @pmaitra @Peter @nongaddarliberal @Bharat Ek Khoj @Johny_Baba @Bhumihar @delbruky @spikey360 @ezsasa @Adioz @Tactical Frog @Keshav Murali and others I have missed...

Guys if you have anything to say regards to this, any info or thoughts, please do share.

 

[aditya10r]

Lot of factors contributed to the fall of A superpower.

I think gorbachGo rushed it,the central Asians who were Muslims did not like the repression of ISLAM.

Economy was under stress, corruption was rampant.

The workers class who were supposed to be the most flourishing part of society,when exposed to the outside world when Gorbachev reformed it later,that made him lose interest in the socialist state.

Soviet union was an ideological state,a state Lenin imagined and thought he would make perfect.

Socialism isn't perfect,it's worse.It puts entitlement and victimhood in the social mindset.

 

[James-bond]

Many books written on it. As far as i know Nehru sucked USSR but they were defeated (internally +Externally) by USA/west and we entered Uni polar world.From then on USA/West dictating terms to rest of the world.

Socialism is an failed Ideology.

USSR helped India,China and who ever has potential to fight against west through Sc&Tech (Weapons n Missiles etc). My guess- 2030 on wards China and India may create Tri polar world (US,Chi and Ind) or Asia retake its former glory.:biggrin2:

 

[aditya10r]

First off.

Soviets rejected Russian identity of orthodox Christianity.

They dragged the state into an arms race which it was destined to lose.

Socialism.

Corruption.

A very opaque system.

A survillsurve state.

Stressed economy.

And a society which was exposed to the failures of the state in a pretty hard way,it should have been gradual.

 

[Adioz]

I am not well read on the subject, but my thinking is that "you don't just take away the Vodka from the Russians". You just don't. If you do, they say "f@c* you, we make own country"

On a more serous note, I believe it was because of the imbalance in the Center-State power balance. If a state feels that it is f**ked because of the center's failures and can do better on its own, it creates problems: gives rise to separatism. Maybe I am oversimplifying things. I mean sometimes, even when the balance is there, people can be made to believe its not there. Prime example is Kashmir. The balance is overwhelmingly towards the state government, yet some people of Kashmir are led to believe that India is the tyrannical ruler. Propaganda is the deadliest weapon in this scenario. Like I said, I am not well read on this subject, so I would rather wait till I can get more time to read up on this subject. Until then, I look forward to learning from this thread.

 

[Razor]

If gorbashev's sudden liberalization and loosening grip of cpsu was one of the causes, is ccp doing the right thing by not loosening CCP grip?

Also ethnic and religion differences and soviet policy of encouraging them, may have played a major role.

 

[aditya10r]

If gorbashev's sudden liberalization and loosening grip of cpsu was one of the causes, is ccp doing the right thing by not loosening CCP grip?

Also ethnic and religion differences and soviet policy of encouraging them, may have played a major role.

Things are different when we talk of China.

Apart from some of its economic problems and the new big ones which will come above the horizon.

It will be harsh if china dissolves,but bulk of population and economy would be intact, hope so.

Tibet, Xinjiang and inner Mongolia would go vanish, that is certain.

There will be unrest.

 

[Dovah]

There certainly isn't just one reason for the dissolution of the Soviet union (SU from now on)
It involves several factors of varying severity coming together to that end.

What in your opinion are some of these factors. Elaborate a bit on then.

Also what is the extent & implications of these factors manifesting in countries like India, China & others.

There isn't just one right answer, coz it's a subjective matter.
This is a thread for learning, from history & elsewhere.

I think while the whole world watched the cold war, only China learned from it. It incorporated the strengths of both the American and the Russian model into its own system, which I believe will be the paradigm of the future. Unlike Russia, China has no ideological baggage and understands the importance of business and unlike US it does not glorify unrestricted and autophagous "freedoms". Technologically, China is doing everything it can to get ahead; and while we may mock them right now, we must not forget that stealing is exactly how the American techno-industrial hegemon grew in its infancy. The deep state in China is the government itself and hence, they are secured on that front.

India on the other hand, drew all the wrong lessons from the Cold-War. From, the disastrous and non-pragmatic NAM, to the idiotic and idealistic idea of Unity in Diversity. Right now we are a country where having a nationalistic identity is frowned upon and poverty is celebrated. Economic progress will mean nothing in the long term when a backwater jahil can collapse the society on a whim.

TL;DR: The fall of USSR was an alarm going off. We did not wake up.

 

[nongaddarliberal]

I have a lot to say about it. I'll formulate my opinion properly and get back to you guys.

 

[Dovah]

I have a lot to say about it. I'll formulate my opinion properly and get back to you guys.

Saar do it in multiple posts. It is easier to follow and discuss. Looking forward to it.

 

[Razor]

Saar do it in multiple posts. It is easier to follow and discuss. Looking forward to it.

Me too, I reply to your post tomorrow.
Now sleepy.

 

[nongaddarliberal]

But just as a clue to one of the reasons, please look at the above inventory. I mean, for fuck's sake.

 

[dhananjay1]

SU was trying to compete with the west. It was not an equal match. The west was already powerful by the time SU was formed, and controlled, directly or indirectly most of the regions of the world as it still does more or less. SU should be seen as a revolt of a strain of abrahamism against other abrahamic strains of the west. This revolt ultimately failed.

 

[Amrk]

@Razor
Let me first start by saying that this topic deserves a much more detailed post, but for the time being let me start with a few points, about which I have thought a lot:

1. First of all , no way Gorbachev's decision though poorly implemented and at the wrong time was the main contributor to the collapse, it was a small mistake amongst many great mistakes. It was Afghanistan which was the point of no return for the Soviets, had it not been Glasnost and Prestroika of Gorbachev, it'd have been something else.

2. So why did USSR fail, to even come close to answering such a question is beyond me, but here is my take:
1. USSR peaked early, by which I mean, no one ever matched Lenin's brilliance again, Stalin if you read about him long enough finally amounts to a street thug, though a world class one, he was inhumanely tough, had little imagination, led by fear instead of inspiration' i.e- Germans planted some misinformation and he purged most of the General staff and almost lost the war, including someone like Tuckhavesky on whose concept of deep defense they later reversed the German offensive.
Each Gen. Sec. afterwards was simply less competent. Now compare it to PRC, they had their greatest leader in Den Xiao Ping, not in Mao who was just a brilliant Psychopath born in the times of chaos and took advantage. Mao concentrated power and others used that power to create something that is unimiganible, because PRC of today is anything but communist, infact they are the greatest capitalists world has ever seen, the only novelty is that, rather then letting their public live the unsustainable and ultimately counterproductive way Americans live, they use the capital gained by purest capitalistic ways to further their militiary and economic might (at the heights of cold war USSR was spending something like 30% of its GDP on defense, while China gets away with 3% and has begun matching US, it is an indicator of howi nefficient Soviet system was), and that's why they survive and prosper where USSR failed, and that's why barring truly catastrophic luck or a debt crisis, they will make U.S. kneel, I only hope that we as a nation don't get trampled in the process.

P.S-- If the discussion progresses, then there is much more to be said

 

[James-bond]

My second opinion in broad sense:

By Western perceptive USSR disintegration may look big issue but for me that is just a fight between ONE White man Vs another White man.

They are FAKE RIVALS they just want to invade/kill other races (Ex: Viet/Afg/Korea/Middle east /Ind-Pak/Africa countries divide - wars etc) Millions of Millions Yellow,Brown and Black died Vs few 1000 whites after WW2.

Russia supplied weapons to India ....... West to Pakistan ..... Brown died
Russia supplied weapons to N.Korea ... West to S.Korea ..... Yellow died
Russia supplied weapons to Afghan ...... West to Mujaheddin ..... Brown died
Russia supplied weapons to one African group .. ... West to Rival Group ..... Black died.
Russia supplied weapons to Shia (govt in Iraq/Syria) ... West to Sunnis (isis)..... Brown-muslims died

SAME PATTERN EVERYWHERE and EVERY TIME where ever they fought. Brown,Yellow and Black kills each other with White man's weapons(US/West/Russian companies gain PROFIT'S).

 

[ezsasa]

The way i see it is that the lessons learnt from fall of USSR, are being implemented in china. For example : distribution of wealth and prosperity, which was not a priority for USSR but it is a priority for china. atleast 10-20 years to go before we know if china made the right call.

 

[Kay]

Causes of fall
1. Military spending beyond capability to match US - Warsaw Pact
2. Inefficiency through nepotism - you had to have close ties to the party to rise - competence became secondary.
3. Concentration of power in the hands of a few - union leaders, party leaders became powerful people and the masses started resenting it.
4. Dictatorship and gulags - Communism has no inbuilt mechanism to check authoratianism.
5. Suppression of religion - which was exploited by US
6. Lack of innovation due to lack of private sector - fell back technologically
7. Afghanistan

 

[Armand2REP]

I think it is quite simple, they didn't have a real economy and relied on the sale of their natural resources to fund the government. When the value of those commodities took a nose dive they didn't have the money to fund their programmes and unpaid workers do what? We are seeing it today in Venezuela.

 

[asianobserve]

The best lesson that can be derived from the collapse of the USSR is that first, people are not robots that can be programmed to forget their personal ambitions, desires, opinions and self concept to work for the "common" social plan. It might work for sometime but eventually most people will yearn for individual freedoms to do what they like; second, centralized economic model is very inefficient long term.