My response was for this post of yours, post # 47:
"If im/simi keep killing hindus attacking areas which are presumed to be hindu dominated ones then hindus will retaliate. its not about how nice or bad it is, vigilantism always occurs when law/order breaks down. do you understand this or will you mount more personal attacks and impute motives?"
Are you the mouthpiece of the Hindus? I am a Hindu and I got better things to do than take the law into my own hands and wash them with the blood of innocents. You go on further to given an example from the move Batman: The Dark Knight - watch that film again. Batman punishes the bad guys, he is the de-facto authority of Gotham City. It was Harvey Dent who fell in the trap of The Joker and wanted vigilante justice. Batman did not let that happen, instead took the blame & the fall.
thank you for missing the point by a mile and quarter.
clearly you may be an enlightened person which shows your moral superiority but unfortunately not all your coreligionists are as even tempered. they are angry and human. they riot and do get themselves in a frenzy because they think they are under threat.
i have a feeling i am talking to somebody who has not seen the bloodthirsty rage of a mob in india.
if you had, you would think twice before telling me about not speaking for all hindus. did i state i was? i was referring to those hindus who will be incited to fight and end up in a no win situation.
a few years back, i have had my own vehicle stopped many times by very angry hindus who told me hindus were killed in gujarat and i was daring to drive on such a day of outrage. and even stoned my own vehicle because i had to get some place in a hurry. if i was not able to convince them that i knew nothing of what had happened, i understood their outrage etc but did have to get to point b, and that i would no longer keep driving across their patch of road, i would be attacked. they may have been good guys per se, or even good human beings but they were angry and liable to harm anyone who they thought was disrespecting them or even harm them. the fear, rage, factor all in one.
i am pretty sure, there were muslim ghettos were the same was going on. after the recent ayodhya verdict, the next day was a friday, and my friend and i took a wrong turn into a group of guys milling around a mosque. the mere fact we dared to cross into that road almost got us into trouble. we escaped by the skin of our teeth as two potbellied cops (thank you guys) intervened, held off the crowd and had us reverse. another day, i stared at a guy in that very ghetto and the gent actually came running with a few friends. bottomline, all humans are not as rational as you think.
thus behaves group mentality. its not a slam on your enlightened hindu soul, but do realize not everyone is as you are.
your response typifies everything that is wrong with debating with those who think they themselves are ok and then project that onto everyone else. i am rational, ergo everyone will be. i will not react violently to continued attacks, so others will not.
how exactly do you think riots occur where all sorts of innocent bystanders from both communities were attacked for no fault of theirs?
coming to dark knight, thanks so much for that response into a pop culture movie and missing my point in every sense. i was mocking the movie, about how unrealistic such movies are, which show a masked vigilante dealing with issues way above his grade and how it has little to do with the real world, and here you are quoting incidents from the movie and attempting to justify it. i am sorry that you got offended that batman was called a vigilante, but he is. and his only so called justification to exist is that law and order in his city has broken down so that they need an adult, conveniently a billionaire, jumping around to solve issues. but his noble motives apart - i actually like the character, the truth is its unrealistic. in movies, people jump from buildings and have no broken bones. in real life, a single scratch from a splinter causes a much more physically fit man to lose an eye when fighting real terrorists. the entire movie is hollywood mythos and pop culture. enjoyable, yes, but not reality.
in real life, vigilantism is brutal, ineffective and almost totally devoid of rationality. people robbing homes? the local bunch of youths catch a few strangers, bash them up and result is more violence. in your world, if somebody cites this - you'll respond with "ah but who gave you the right to speak for all vigilantes, thats not how i would do things". wonderful. go read up about the bhagalpur blindings where the law and order itself, in a nod to community vigilante justice did the unconscionable. but be warned, its graphic and it is not meant for light reading. read if you must.
not only do you miss my points that are being made, you conflate them to your image of yourself which is the wrong thing to do. by virtue of access to the internet, ability to type in english, we are already far above most of our fellow citizens in terms of motivations in terms of economic strata and behavior is different. if you speak to others beyond the narrow sliver of a privileged middle class, then see the increasing communal polarization, because the govt is failing in protecting them, things are not good, which brings me to this even more surprising point you claimed..
And terrorist attacks having been occurring in India atleast for 2 decades now, but how is this the breakdown of law & order? It is an intel failure.
and this is your response? intel failure? and you were seeking to snub me on comprehension and what not.
please wake up. it is a complete break down of the system, especially law and order which allows criminals of all kinds to inhabit cities armed with deadly weapons, has them terrorize the local population using their respective religions as an excuse and even a positioner to market their services to various political parties, and then later on, in riots act as the frontline.
do you even know how corrupt the indian law & order system is and how it allows such problems to flourish and actually create them. a local beat station in a city which i lived not so far back, every day took forty rupees from every shop that ran in its area, all of which were illegal constructions and had to pay these guys. three stations shared jurisdiction and all at dfifferent times of the day shared the loot. one of the locals had a son who was mentally affected. they even locked him up one day because his dad, spoke up about not giving that days "rent". other petty criminals also pay a regular duty fee to cop stations. they in turn report to larger touts.
now when a local thug is contacted by the terror element who has been hiding in a larger community which refuses to admit he can exist, he acts as the foot soldier for these groups.
dawood ibrahim was a son of a cop, and gamed the system perfectly. corruption allows these guys to survive. politicians allow criminals of all stripes to exist and the breakdown in law and order is what allows them to flourish.
in bihar, politicians were using maoists to settle scores and the law and order system would look the other way.
all this intel failure stuff is BAKWAAS meant to fool the average citizen that "intel which is so hard to find failed on this one occasion". which is the reason why anna hazares proposals are coming under so much resistance from the establishment. he, ramdev and others have hit upon what is actually the biggest problem. the corruption, the grease which allows the black economy, corruption and widespread breakdown of law and order to flourish (almost everyone can be bought). if the system is uncovered to the light, it will break down. and its in everyones interests to make sure it happens.
there is no way you can ever have complete intel in a country the size of india. especially when we rely extensively on techint (read some books sometime from our so called experts on the sad state of affairs) for our neighbouring countries and hence lack adequate real time intel.
with the multiplicity of agencies, its a game to cover their lapses by coming up with generic claims of xyz terror threat. after a while nobody bothers and its brushed away as an intel failure.
the actual problem is the complete corruption and breakdown of the law and order system, which uses criminals, and allows these guys to operate ok as long as money flows. it is these same criminals then who then act as the footsoldiers for the local elements of units like the IM/SIMI.
that you are asking this question is amazing. are you aware of how the D-gang grew in mumbai, whats its tentacles are all over the country, and the fact that it was deeply complicit in the mumbai attacks of yesteryear? how do you think they got so powerful? till the attacks, when their activities became too prominent, things moved as usual. till date, you will articles bemoaing the fact that the gang continues to thrive in india.
its not intel failure, its a failure of our complete law and order system. if the law was applied fairly and ips reforms had not been stalled by taking the IPS out of the powerful control of local politicians, and in turn you had more chceks and balances on the cops to prevent corruption, you'd see most of these issues fade, at least those of succesful attack after attack.
Btw, Yusuf asked you to go to Pakistan to split Pakistan. Problem with comprehension?
before yusuf tells me to go to pakistan let him try it first and see what happens to him. he is an indian and the guy wont last in any secret efforts to split pak.
before asking somebody to do something so unrealistic, walk a mile on that path yourself. besides which there is the other point, yusuf or you or nobody has the right to tell any indian to go to pakistan. if you rate your chances highly as some sort of uber commando who can split it , give it a shot. here india is not able to even get decent humint within that country, and out come such unrealistic responses. the exact thing i was saying about the james bond sydrome, of a super secret agent going around and fixing things, or a super batman, fixing things. in real life, thats bunkum.
if he wants to makea difference, instead of going to pakistan, let him tell his own community leaders to go and address internal issues because trying to blame the fingers on others only exacerbates the problem. that is achievable, and realistic. every indian muslim who steps up and says to heck with conspiracy theories guys, keep an eye out for im/simi, thats the win right there.
what you are not getting is that its not about the idiots in pakistan per se, who are used as the convenient excuse to disguise the absolute rot in our system, which guys like you are unaware about. because its not their competence hurting us, but our own faultlines being exposed and used.
what you dont understand is that what pakistan is doing, can be done by anyone else with a vested interest in destabilizing india. they are doing it today. and seeing their success, any other idiot can do it tomorrow, seeing how easy it is to outsource terror thanks to the corruption in our system and so called leaders, who instead of calling for fixes and introspection, play a cynical game of blaming the majority in this case, when every piece of evidence points to SIMI and IM.
first realize everyone is not like you and as rational as you are. humans are plagued with fears. when fears go past a tipping point, they fall prey to demagogues who incite them to a response. this is the classic flee or fight response, to the point that fleeing no longer works, and so fight. and if the fight is against the wrong people, the ordinary muslim who may have no relation to these attacks, then it is a further problem.
that is worrisome.
the need of the hour is to stop people from inciting folks because claims hindus did it further feed communal polarization.when the fingers clearly point to simi and im, so that again a decade from now i dont have to witness rioting between communities which lived next to each other.
go talk to somebody who has been in any riot situation, first hand, especially the response authorities and see how fast things develop. i lived next to one of indias famed sensitive areas, and every other friday was a problem because of hotheads coming to blows and a guy like me, who is just passing by with some thoughts in his head about his own challenges being a victim.
if you cant understand what i wrote, and that you think i justified vigilantism as versus pointing out that vigilantism/communal polarization/terrorism is likely to rise thanks to the communal baiting of one prominent leader, who is inciting two groups to a conflict, then nothing more can be said.
guys like you dont want to understand how severe the issue is, attack those who do realize it, and then feel good about how not admitting the problem is somehow a solution. when i was growing up, ages ago, i used to openly move into so called ghettos, celebrate festivals back and forth and rarely if ever felt inconvenienced. after the incessant attacks, back and forth rioting, many of my friends fell out with each other and would talk the most blase stuff with each other and actually the communal angle was very hard to miss, and as i noted earlier there are areas that are no go areas. i hope that as i live further, i dont see things slide further down the scale where this bogey of hindu terror becomes a self fulfilling prophecy because it is used to prevent the effective stoppage of attacks, and let the corrupt indian system get away with everything. cops not effective, oh sorry, we were investigating "all angles" and we dont have manpower.
go figure what i wrote versus responding that you are better and wont attack others. that was never the point. your asking everyone who presents the unvarnished reality to go into pakistan will not stop the reality. the reason the pakistanis are in such sh!t today, is because anyone says anything that is inconvenient, go to indian, you must be indian. when they should have been investigating their taliban, they were busy chasing RAW/MOSSAD and now they are in deep doo doo without a clue of what was going on. the parallels with india are tragicomic. in india our leaders too are picking up on some mythical agency conducting the attacks, ignoring the one in front of their eyes, while deliberately refusing to overhaul a corrupt, broken law and order system. instead of acknowledging it, you want all those who see it for what it is, to go to pakistan and become james bonds. or wherever. kudos! thats likely to to work.
