Design and Engineering of Agni VI missile is finished

[no smoking]

That means the cost is acceptable. Reread what i replied in the context of what you asked

That means you are wasting 50% of every kg material in your bomb. There is limit of advantage of mass production of nuclear material. Even you can produce at the scale of Russia in cold war, they are still very expensive!

India has no dreams of being a super power nor it can achieve it in the future nor can any country period.
Only one country is a super power..... Practically nearly all of the defense deals are done in one currency. Only one country spends as much or more than rest of the top 10 put together in defense . Only one country has enough hard power to militarily defeat any country in the world . There is no two but one such country like that.

Oh, please.
Your PM Nehru already made it very clear:"India, constituted as she is, cannot play a secondary part in the world. She will either count for a great deal or not count at all. No middle position attracted me."

Your nuclear program even started before India can feed your own people.

Well our CMD ( credible minimal deterrence ) has not been reached yet other wise we would have signed the FMCT so how did you know how many warheads and yield will be deployed and the radiation transport to the second stage can be accurately calculated for the the current design.

I don't know! I made my argument based on the information provided by you and public source.

Well how did the world know the 1967 Chinese thermonuclear test was indeed a thermonuclear weapon , it could have been a large FBF warhead around 300 to 400 kt.

Well, you can argue with Americans and Russians. They invested billions of dollars in their military plan against Chinese for a potential nuclear war based on that conclusion. Maybe you are smarter than them.

I didn't say we are closing in with the P5 wrt nuclear weapons , we are a peace loving country we just want to make as much fissile material as the P5 have thats it . No one can stop us our Ore , our reactor and our reprocessing facility thats it so why bother.

Oh, yes, you just tell everyone that India somehow achieves the simulation capabilities with just 2 rounds of tests, which on the other hand costs each of P5 20-30 years and 30+ rounds of tests minimum.

Well if you think India has no simulating capability good we don't care whatever helps you sleep .

Yes, just as you said, you can create any myth you like to help your sleep.

 

[no smoking]

India's nuclear weapons are driven by SECURITY PERCEPTION, not for PRESTIGE. The nukes are in line with Governments's policies which are clearly stated to the world.

There is no significant change. India IS NOT BUILDING a huge stockpile of weapons.

Think this way: before 1998, you got ZERO nuclear missile pointing at you; after 1998, you got 100 nuclear missiles pointing at you any minute.

Did you improve your security?

 

[AnantS]

Think this way: before 1998, you got ZERO nuclear missile pointing at you; after 1998, you got 100 nuclear missiles pointing at you any minute.

Did you improve your security?

Nope China, North Korea proliferated missile tech and nukes to Pakistan even before 1998. It even tested for Pakistan in Lop Nor in 80's. Also Chinese and American missiles were pointed towards India in later half of cold war. India's security improved in the form of deterrence. China/Pakistan knows and nuke belligerence on their part will be met with equivalent response from India. So only zer0, is in your hyp0thesis.

And dont worry about not having megaton warhead, our missiles are accurate, will become more accurate with IRNSS + GAGAN . Once IRNSS coverage expands over Korea, as talks are on, northern half of China will be covered.. And good accuracy, reduces dependency on megaton sledgehammers

 

[warrior monk]

That means you are wasting 50% of every kg material in your bomb. There is limit of advantage of mass production of nuclear material. Even you can produce at the scale of Russia in cold war, they are still very expensive!

Only in the case of thermo nuclear warheads in fission warheads it depends upon if it is boosted or not . No country has a complete clean design yet .

Oh, please.
Your PM Nehru already made it very clear:"India, constituted as she is, cannot play a secondary part in the world. She will either count for a great deal or not count at all. No middle position attracted me."

Your nuclear program even started before India can feed your own people.

It was more of a ethical moral power (India being the founding member of Nam and all ) rather than a hard super power like US and Soviet Union. India has always championed the rights of the developing world whether in WTO (The agriculture agreement allowed public stockholding of foodgrains to TRIPS and TRIMS ) negotiations .
We saved Africa's 35 million people from dying from opportunistic infection due to immunocompromise due to HIV 1 and 2 virus by mass producing anti retrovirals at 65 cents . Americans were selling at 5000 to 10000 dollars a course !!!!. No wonder Pharma companies hate India and China more than anything. Recently they banned APIs (Active pharmaceutical ingredients ) from India and China.
We brought public stockholding issue of the food grains in WTO negotiations on agriculture as no other developing country had the guts to stand up to western countries and Chinese don't even support us nowadays as they have made some money in the last 10 years .
We brought CBDR ( Common but differentiated responsibility ) into the negotiations in 92 Rio and the kyoto protocol and the future climate deals other poor developing countries would have been looted by the Westerners if historic emissions are not taken into account putting all the responsibility on the poor countries.
Why do you think US is signing TPA and TAA not just to harass China but also India in the longer run.

This is what Nehru wanted India to do .

Well, you can argue with Americans and Russians. They invested billions of dollars in their military plan against Chinese for a potential nuclear war based on that conclusion. Maybe you are smarter than them.

My argument was not to question China's claims of testing a thermonuclear warhead which it did it was based on how to know whether the explosion was infact a staged radiation implosion device . Which can only be done by a post shot radio chemical testing to gauge the yield of the warhead not the intensity of the blast or the weight of the warhead.
D + T → n + 4He En = 14.1 MeV
The estimation of 14.1 MeV neutron yield and the activation products in that test generated by that fusion of secondary , the amount of radioactivity of these products etc which will also reveal the signature of the bomb and yield any is the final confirmation whether the bomb was thermonuclear or not .

Oh, yes, you just tell everyone that India somehow achieves the simulation capabilities with just 2 rounds of tests, which on the other hand costs each of P5 20-30 years and 30+ rounds of tests minimum.

Yes because we don't have different yields of warheads and cannot vary them significantly or change the design without testing . Our capability is due to the presence of supercomputers with us in the late 80s which except US no one had in the 80s except maybe China. By mid 90s India had excellent supercomputing capability not matched by any developing country baring China.
Americans tested a lot because they were the pioneers and Soviets tried to match them. China had the shortest fission to fusion conversion does that make Chinese smarter than the Americans and the Soviets , No Chinese just followed what the Americans have discovered already like the Tellar Ulam design and how to stage the warhead etc not make fancy designs with it.
US discovered everything 99.99999 % relating to nuclear weapons every one just followed them including India. China and India are following US and Russian lead in making LIA , ICF facility , multi axis radiography of hydrodynamic test facility etc no need to act smart just follow the pioneers.
It is took US 25 + years 5 to 6 tries and billions of dollars to get a rover on Mars , Soviets also tried and failed a lot and spent billions but India did it in half the time 1/10 the money and in 1 shot we reached Mars the only Asian country to do so which also requires extensive computer simulation does that make India smarter than them and more capable than them . No India just took the lead and avoided the mistakes they made and stood on the shoulders of giants .
It took Americans 60 years of theoretical research 40 years of operating Stealth aircraft , FSS , RAM coating , inlet shaping , active adaptive antenna units , sensor fusion etc and billion and billions of dollars to make f-35 while Chine did it in less than 1/3 rd or less time much less money and probably 1/10th or less of theoretical research in getting 2 programs j-20 and j 31 so does that make China smarter than US ??
You just follow what they have discovered you stand on the shoulders of giants.Well India and China do that only difference is China does a much better job than India .

 

[no smoking]

Yes because we don't have different yields of warheads and cannot vary them significantly or change the design without testing . Our capability is due to the presence of supercomputers with us in the late 80s which except US no one had in the 80s except maybe China. By mid 90s India had excellent supercomputing capability not matched by any developing country baring China.

No, as I pointed out, supercomputer is only part of solution, you need enough data to build up a decent model.
Why do you think Chinese speeded up her nuclear tests in last 90s even though she already done more than 30 tests? They need data;
Why do you think French had to continue their test in China after green peace protest? They need data.

Americans tested a lot because they were the pioneers and Soviets tried to match them. China had the shortest fission to fusion conversion does that make Chinese smarter than the Americans and the Soviets , No Chinese just followed what the Americans have ......
while Chine did it in less than 1/3 rd or less time much less money and probably 1/10th or less of theoretical research in getting 2 programs j-20 and j 31 so does that make China smarter than US ??

All these examples are not appropriate. The key part of nuclear simulation is: how much data you accumulated and how fast you accumulated.

You just follow what they have discovered you stand on the shoulders of giants.Well India and China do that only difference is China does a much better job than India.

No, in the case of simulation, you just repeat what they have done.
The only reason China does a much better job than India is: Chinese scientists did much more tests than their Indian counterpart.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

No, as I pointed out, supercomputer is only part of solution, you need enough data to build up a decent model.
Why do you think Chinese speeded up her nuclear tests in last 90s even though she already done more than 30 tests? They need data;
Why do you think French had to continue their test in China after green peace protest? They need data.



All these examples are not appropriate. The key part of nuclear simulation is: how much data you accumulated and how fast you accumulated.



No, in the case of simulation, you just repeat what they have done.
The only reason China does a much better job than India is: Chinese scientists did much more tests than their Indian counterpart.

Doubtful . Chinese can't make an slbm or MIRV. What makes you think
India is not sharing data?
https://books.google.com/books?id=i...ia and israel share nuclear test data&f=false

 

[warrior monk]

No, as I pointed out, supercomputer is only part of solution, you need enough data to build up a decent model.
Why do you think Chinese speeded up her nuclear tests in last 90s even though she already done more than 30 tests? They need data;
Why do you think French had to continue their test in China after green peace protest? They need data.



All these examples are not appropriate. The key part of nuclear simulation is: how much data you accumulated and how fast you accumulated.



No, in the case of simulation, you just repeat what they have done.
The only reason China does a much better job than India is: Chinese scientists did much more tests than their Indian counterpart.

Already answered

Actual test has been done what is currently being done is maintaining the plutonium pit in primary , testing of spark plugs in secondary , radiative transfer to the imploding capsule through the hohlraum also secondary , Checking the radiation shield , the tamper (Both fissile and non fissile ) , thermodynamics of radiation inside hohlraum and what kind of material it should be made up off so that it is perfectly opaque etc

Except the secondary problem of ignition all can be tested even without supercomputers in specialised labs . The secondary problem of ignition is highly calculation intensive like fissile core compression , implosion of the fusion fuel increases the density of the fuel mass as measured by neutron collision mean free paths. The neutrons released by the fusion reactions will thus undergo more collisions before they can reach the tamper , the starting of the reaction , the maintenance of radiative energy and shock waves from the primary as radiative energy needs to reach earlier, once the fuel start getting consumed energy is released then this is where the hydrodynamic phenomena begins , the most important part. All of these and more will be completely simulated in the lab and are being done except the hydrodynamic phenomena of implosion of secondary due to ablation heating and compression of tamper which will be done in 5 to 6 years when this ICF facility attains full power .
The only thing which India cannot do without testing is to change the design of warheads for say a megatonne yield weapon without consuming outrageous amount of of fissile material which will make it very very heavy which India cannot deploy .
From the POK1 design 200 kt warheads have already being designed many in number and many more will be made . Our 200 kt warhead will probably weigh 1 tonne while US W-88 475 kt warhead weighs 225 kgs only . That is the difference of testing between US and Indian warheads , though US has even larger warheads with increase in staging it will make it even difficult to maintain as simulations go more complicated.


Most of the re testing is done to test different materials test different tampers , different pushers , different neutron reflectors , experimenting with different fissile material etc but if you are sticking to the already present design you don't require further testing unless you want to experiment with different designs . Mind you Chinese have three staged weapons compared to two staged one we got .

 

[no smoking]

Doubtful . Chinese can't make an slbm or MIRV.

Who told you that?
You know what is JL-1/2, right?
You know what is DF5B and DF41, right?

What makes you think
India is not sharing data?
https://books.google.com/books?id=i0DFAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA20&lpg=PA20&dq=india+and+israel+share+nuclear+test+data&source=bl&ots=oUgTwSOQET&sig=EHjbbfqnFGyjyCulnggtyU4OkQU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjp1qfI6JHLAhXFHx4KHaR4BpEQ6AEIIDAD#v=onepage&q=india and israel share nuclear test data&f=false

Look into the detail of your link. There is nothing about nuclear explosion data!
In nuclear fields, the best you can share is the design. Even you replicate a bomb based on the others design, the data you collected will still be different because the material, processing tech and machine are still different.

 

[Screambowl]

Yes the single missile which will be carrying a Post boost control vehicle or a Bus which carries multiple warheads will have sequential launch adapters , the PBCV will itself have multiple vernier rockets which will align the vehicle into its optimal trajectory with the help of various algorithms that are pre programmed then the sequential launch adapters will align the payloads of the bus in suitable trajectory.

No it will not be a cluster type attack the various warheads will be ejected from the bus controlled by the adapters , the adapters will use the redundant Ring laser gyro based Inertial navigation system and digital scene mapping correlator for gauging the correct alignment .

Yes it can attack multiple cities actually that is the point of MIRV.

Those ranges are classified and though India has had the necessary technologies but has not tested it yet so we have to wait .

Or could carry dummy warheads/ anti ABM counter measure system.

That means you are wasting 50% of every kg material in your bomb. There is limit of advantage of mass production of nuclear material. Even you can produce at the scale of Russia in cold war, they are still very expensive!

Production can be done, but much more costlier is the maintenance.

Due to network centric society and warfare, tactical ones, but in mass production, do better job than big candies.

 

[no smoking]

The last test of India's H-bomb was not 100% successful according to Indian scientists, since you insist that India already have set up simulation facility, so we can assume that India must have tested her nuclear bomb design before explosion in 1998. And we can comfortably assume the simulation produced a result so good that India was confident enough to undertake a real test. Now we know the conclusion of simulation was wrong. So, there were at least 2 problems we can find in this event:
1. Indian scientists design was incorrect;
2. Indian simulation facility has its share of problem;

No doubt, Indian scientists has been working on these since then. But so far, they haven't got the second chance to check their improvements on both yet.

There are 2 purposes of simulation:
1. Check the NEW design with new material, new component or even new structure (it is useless to simulate a design which was tested successfully already). Simulation gives you a chance to check your new bomb CHEAPER and QUICKER. But it has limit. Eventually, you still need a test to finalise the design.
2. Maintenance of aged bomb.

Mind you Chinese have three staged weapons compared to two staged one we got .

Different class bomb at all. India's is a 200k yield bomb only while Chinese first bomb released 3 Megaton yield.
That was how you archived a lighter bomb with higher yield in last 60s.
Such as American B53, 9 megaton with 4 tons weight and Soviet 50 megaton bomb.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Who told you that?
You know what is JL-1/2, right?
You know what is DF5B and DF41, right?



Look into the detail of your link. There is nothing about nuclear explosion data!
In nuclear fields, the best you can share is the design. Even you replicate a bomb based on the others design, the data you collected will still be different because the material, processing tech and machine are still different.

I doubt your claim that NATO member France had China test nukes for them .
This claim is more far fetched than the link I
Gave.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[garg_bharat]

The last test of India's H-bomb was not 100% successful according to Indian scientists, since you insist that India already have set up simulation facility, so we can assume that India must have tested her nuclear bomb design before explosion in 1998. And we can comfortably assume the simulation produced a result so good that India was confident enough to undertake a real test. Now we know the conclusion of simulation was wrong. So, there were at least 2 problems we can find in this event:
1. Indian scientists design was incorrect;
2. Indian simulation facility has its share of problem;

No doubt, Indian scientists has been working on these since then. But so far, they haven't got the second chance to check their improvements on both yet.

There are 2 purposes of simulation:
1. Check the NEW design with new material, new component or even new structure (it is useless to simulate a design which was tested successfully already). Simulation gives you a chance to check your new bomb CHEAPER and QUICKER. But it has limit. Eventually, you still need a test to finalise the design.
2. Maintenance of aged bomb.



Different class bomb at all. India's is a 200k yield bomb only while Chinese first bomb released 3 Megaton yield.
That was how you archived a lighter bomb with higher yield in last 60s.
Such as American B53, 9 megaton with 4 tons weight and Soviet 50 megaton bomb.

The Indian TN test was set up for a yield of 45K in 1998 test. The yield was kept low due to risk of damage to property in surrounding areas. It was not an actual warhead but a test device that has been fabricated several years before. The likely cause of lower yield may have different than design.

India only says that it is capable of building warheads up to 1 Megaton. However if one is built is not certain.

India does have missiles that can carry 1 Megaton warheads.

 

[garg_bharat]

A 200K warhead will destroy a large military base or airbase or a medium size city completely. If someone assumes that a 200K warhead is a bunch of roses is laughable.

 

[garg_bharat]

However I have said before and I repeat that India does not believe in threatening tones.

India understands the futility of nuclear war. This is the reason India decided to abandon use of tactical nuclear weapons.

We know that USA, Russia and China have different operational doctrines. Nuclear choices are very difficult, and have been arrived at after a lot of discussion.

 

[garg_bharat]

India's nuclear doctrine has been clearly stated now through official channels. There is no ambiguity.

There is ambiguity only in force level. Here the best indicator is production of missiles.

 

[no smoking]

The Indian TN test was set up for a yield of 45K in 1998 test. The yield was kept low due to risk of damage to property in surrounding areas. It was not an actual warhead but a test device that has been fabricated several years before. The likely cause of lower yield may have different than design.

That is a claim made by Indian scientists but no one buys it.
Ironically, years later, Indian scientists made another claim that the test was unsuccessful.

India only says that it is capable of building warheads up to 1 Megaton. However if one is built is not certain.

No, India need further improvement on the design even if the 1998 test succeeded.

India does have missiles that can carry 1 Megaton warheads.

If Warrior Monk's figure is correct, 1Megaton warhead will be too heavy.

 

[garg_bharat]

That is a claim made by Indian scientists but no one buys it.
Ironically, years later, Indian scientists made another claim that the test was unsuccessful.




No, India need further improvement on the design even if the 1998 test succeeded.



If Warrior Monk's figure is correct, 1Megaton warhead will be too heavy.

No scientist directly related to test has ever said that the test was a failure.

There have been doubts raised by Americans, which were countered by Indian scientific establishment.

There is good reason for my statement. The tests were planned for several years but political approval was not given.

Bjp government gave the approval within days of coming into power. It is clear that the time was not adequate to fabricate a device.

Whatever was tested in 1998 was fabricated several years before.

Whatever happened then has little relevance now. Everybody has moved on. China has moved on too.

 

[garg_bharat]

China may say that India is bluffing.

China has its view and we can do nothing about it.

 

[Screambowl]

That is a claim made by Indian scientists but no one buys it.
Ironically, years later, Indian scientists made another claim that the test was unsuccessful.




No, India need further improvement on the design even if the 1998 test succeeded.



If Warrior Monk's figure is correct, 1Megaton warhead will be too heavy.

It's a good reason for not actually signing the CTBT.

 

[no smoking]

No scientist directly related to test has ever said that the test was a failure.

Santhanam, who was director for 1998 test site preparation, should be considered directly related to the test.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...-successful-Scientist/articleshow/4938610.cms

There have been doubts raised by Americans, which were countered by Indian scientific establishment.

Not only Americans, but everyone except Indian.

There is good reason for my statement. The tests were planned for several years but political approval was not given.

Bjp government gave the approval within days of coming into power. It is clear that the time was not adequate to fabricate a device.

Whatever was tested in 1998 was fabricated several years before.

I fail to see what your point is.

Whatever happened then has little relevance now. Everybody has moved on. China has moved on too.

Well, it has a lot relevance now. Until your scientists got chance to test their correction of the design, India nuclear development is moving nowhere.