Defective T-72 Tanks

[shuvo@y2k10]

The best replacement of both t-90s and t-72 is arjun mk2 and future versions of it.Anyways can anyone give any specifications of indian made heavy era like it's performance against heat,ke and top tandem warheads.

 

[bose]

The key success criteria for replacement of T-72 is INDIGENOUS Arjun Mark - II / III... There is no way out, we must have around 2000 T-90 S upgraded to Indian requirements for specific NE regions and mopping up operations...

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Its hard to speculate but as we had K5 era, Indian Present Heavy ERA is equal or better..

indian made heavy era like it's performance against heat,ke and top tandem warheads.

 

[Austin]

@Austin,

T-90MS turret design is still flawed and there would be no correction, Indian T-90S with Kanchan Armour and with K5 ERA or in future advance Russian ERA or Indian heavy ERA can do the job..

Beside Indian T-90S are also getting the same electronic package as T-90MS, IMHO it would be a wrong decision..

There are people on this board that also belive Arjun Turret design has flaws and weakness but that apart such discussion will keep going on , the only flawless tank is on the drawing board.

Indian T-90S needs upgrade as its been more than a decade now that its been bought and used , buying few dozen T-90MS and then upgrading most of T-90 tank fleet close to MS standard would keep it contemporary for a long time to come , besides we need APS for both Arjun and T-90's.

Hopefully we might see the Mk1 too gets upgraded to Mk2 standard or closer to it once the Mk2 starts rolling out.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Arjun turret have flaws so does T-90MS, But we cannot use this argument that it is flawed so its ok to buy flawed designs..

We have no control over design issues of another country but surely we have over Arjun..

Instead of spending on T-90MS we should use that amount for R&D for MK3/FMBT..

 

[JBH22]

Arjun turret have flaws so does T-90MS, But we cannot use this argument that it is flawed so its ok to buy flawed designs..

We have no control over design issues of another country but surely we have over Arjun..

Instead of spending on T-90MS we should use that amount for R&D for MK3/FMBT..

No other option but to go with T-90MS given the enormous amount of investment we have made in T-90 plus its numbers are too huge.

Its like saying let's stop upgrading SU-30 but instead focus on AMCA. We have to modernise what we have.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I never said that we should stop T-90S upgrade do read my post again, In fact i am saying it is under upgrade to same level of T-90MS more or less..

Besides, Why one would go for T-90MS flawed design which is just a medium upgrade of T-90S there is no logic in that when T-90S which is a better tank than T-90MS in design and can be modernism at same level of T-90MS in country, Which is already begun..

 

[Austin]

The T-90MS is a different beast with a new FC , Relikt ERA , New Gun , Tank Commander Sights etc etc the changes are just too big that you cant go for the same on T-90S upgrade , our upgrade is quite basic for T-90 which included stuff like AC and APS.

T-90MS is a different beast and logistically it has more commonality with Indian T-90 then any other tank ,so it makes sense to buy a couple of them and deploy in East atleast that is what Ajai Shukla mentioned.

No harm in trying for both , instead of building another new type that may come with its own sort of problem.

BTW the T-90MS flaw is being propogated by one Mr Andrei from Ukranian ....he will probably find flaw on all tanks except Ukranian ones and i saw his comment on Arjun tooo , so its not surprise.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

What is the difference between new FCS and Indian T-90S FCS ? Does present T-90S FCS is degraded or Army is unsatisfied ?

New Gun indeed, Do we have Ammo ? we are going to use BM42 anyways same used on T-90S..

==============================

Indian T-90S are not just getting APS and AC, But you also know it is about New Panoramic Sight, New tracks, New FFRS, New electronic package same as T-90MS, And many more small upgrades that are needed on a better design T-90S..

It makes no sense buying few of these medium upgraded T-90S that is even flawed design and deploy them in east, Where just Indian made and Indian Upgraded T-90S are more than capable to counter Type-96/99 over other side..

The T-90MS is a different beast with a new FC , Relikt ERA , New Gun , Tank Commander Sights etc etc the changes are just too big that you cant go for the same on T-90S upgrade , our upgrade is quite basic for T-90 which included stuff like AC and APS.

T-90MS is a different beast and logistically it has more commonality with Indian T-90 then any other tank ,so it makes sense to buy a couple of them and deploy in East atleast that is what Ajai Shukla mentioned.

 

[Austin]

Yes the new FCS Kalina is significantly better than the one they use on T-90S , ITs not about degraded the FCS Bhishma uses is the one that was developed in 90's but the new Kalina gurantees atleast 21 out of 22 hit compared to previous 15 as per the desiger.

We would need better APFSDS and the MS has more Modern Gun that can fire at higher chamber pressure and has autoloader that can fire longer rounds.

T-90S upgrade is more of iterative one the T-90MS is a defferent beast in all parameters compared to Indian T-90S ...thats simply because the design has 10-15 years advantage over T-90S.

Again if i have to take your flaw design argument further then you have to equally believe what Andrei has to say on Arjun , Abrams and other western tanks . So there is no point in arguing over one mans view.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

@Austin, I wont argue more on this, I respect your view but i like to stick with my view as i consider that is correct by my logic..

Yes the new FCS Kalina is significantly better than the one they use on T-90S , ITs not about degraded the FCS Bhishma uses is the one that was developed in 90's but the new Kalina gurantees atleast 21 out of 22 hit compared to previous 15 as per the desiger.

We would need better APFSDS and the MS has more Modern Gun that can fire at higher chamber pressure and has autoloader that can fire longer rounds.

T-90S upgrade is more of iterative one the T-90MS is a defferent beast in all parameters compared to Indian T-90S ...thats simply because the design has 10-15 years advantage over T-90S.

Again if i have to take your flaw design argument further then you have to equally believe what Andrei has to say on Arjun , Abrams and other western tanks . So there is no point in arguing over one mans view.

 

[Austin]

Ok Fair Point Kunal.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

There is no logic in buying t90ms only because russia is marketing it to be a better tank than top class nato mbt's.Even pakistan is promoting alkhalid as a better tank than western counterparts in defence exibitions around the world-does it mean india should buy those.why should india go for another foreign tank when t-90 is clearly defeated in all parameters by arjun mk1.Now we have arjun mk2 which will be in the same league as top nato mbt's and merkava4 and it would be a criminal and wasteful expenditure of our precious foreign exchange reserve to buy an inferior t-90ms tin can from russia.The only thing india could gain from t90ms is the relikit era which is said to much better than kontack 5 but i don't think russia would transfer it's tot to us since they have even refused to transfer the tot of kontack era for license prodiction of t-90s.

 

[binayak95]

Was the Merkava mk1 perfect?? But surely the mk IV is awesome. IMHO, keep the t-90s as our MBT, but develop successive generations of the Arjun. We will end up with an excellent tank 2-3 generations down the line and who knows, maybe the Russians will buy our tank!!

 

[Kunal Biswas]

General Director of "Uralvagonzavod" Oleg Siyenko Says : India wants to produce Russian tanks T-90C

India is interested in continuing the licensed production of Russian T-90C tanks. This came in a statement by Chief Executive of the Russian-Indian tank contract, General Director of "Uralvagonzavod" scientific industrial corporation Oleg Siyenko at the IDEX-2013 arms fair.

On the basis of total characteristics, today the T-90C tank is the best tank on the international market. According to Siyenko, "there are hundreds of already manufactured tanks". This tank is produced on the base of the Russian license at a tank factory in the city of Avadi, in the state of Tamil Nadu. Today, the T-90C tank is the main striking force of the Indian army. India is interested in transition from the currently existing large-unit assembly to complete localization of production and subsequent modernization of the previously jointly manufactured machines. According to estimations of experts, in 2014-2019, India can additionally purchase about 600 new, modernized T-90C tanks and start their complete licensed production on the spot.

From licensed assembly to joint production: India wants to produce Russian tanks T-90C: Voice of Russia

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If this is true from our side, Its end of Arjun MK-1/2/3 or FMBT..

 

[Immanuel]

You are seriously suggesting replacing an MBT with an overweight BMP that can be made swiss cheese by a Kord MG? The thing can't even take a 6kg mine under centreline. I wouldn't take that thing into Mali much less make it an MBT replacement. It is twice the weight of AMX-10RCR and half the protection = no thanks.



It never was...



It is a terrible chassis for any launcher = overweight and under-protected. You might as well use a BMP-2.

In its basic form the Anders has Stanag Level 3 which can easily be upgraded to level 5 with add on armor, considering it fires a 120mm round, it already out guns the 105 AMX-10 to begin with. Depending on the kind of armaments it weighs anywhere between 24-35 tons which is ok since it is versatile. I think with a built in APS like the Trophy its survivability goes up, moreover, in light Tank mode, it can carry 4 extra passengers which I believe is ideal. Tanks always have had a need for soldiers around them to sanitise the area from tricky miscreants. These days more so in urban scenarios. Moreover, I propose India buys this with full-tot and pimps it up for our use. I am sure with some tweaking it could be used effectively for our uses.

Level 3

[edit] Kinetic Energy

7.62 x 51 AP (WC core) at 30 meters with 930 m/s[1]

7.62 x 54R B32 API (Dragunov) at 30 meters with 854 m/s[1]

12.7 x 99 M2 AP at 30 meters with 914 m/s (only Level 3+)

Protection cover:

Angle azimuth 360 degrees

Elevation 0 - 30 degrees

[edit] Artillery

155 mm High Explosive at 60 m[2]

Protection cover:

Angle Azimuth 0 - 360 degrees

Elev. 0 - 30 degrees

Due to very low probability of a large fragment retaining enough velocity at these distances, STANAG 4569 makes this optional.[3]

[edit] Grenade and Mine Blast Threat

8 kg (explosive mass) Blast AT Mine:
3a – Mine Explosion pressure activated under any wheel or track location.
3b – Mine Explosion under center.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

There is always a ground pressure issue, Specially over India coz of Sand and Mud, Heavy weight on narrow tracks coz vehicles to sunk in, Heavy weight on wider track dont cause that..

If BMP get wider tracks its logical to mount a cannon on it and up-Armour it...

 

[Armand2REP]

In its basic form the Anders has Stanag Level 3 which can easily be upgraded to level 5 with add on armor, considering it fires a 120mm round, it already out guns the 105 AMX-10 to begin with. Depending on the kind of armaments it weighs anywhere between 24-35 tons which is ok since it is versatile. I think with a built in APS like the Trophy its survivability goes up, moreover, in light Tank mode, it can carry 4 extra passengers which I believe is ideal. Tanks always have had a need for soldiers around them to sanitise the area from tricky miscreants. These days more so in urban scenarios. Moreover, I propose India buys this with full-tot and pimps it up for our use. I am sure with some tweaking it could be used effectively for our uses.

In its regular configuration Anders has STANAG Level IIIA. That does not include 12.7mm nor can it take an 8kg mine inside the tracks. In its base form it weighs 35t with no add on armour. Add ons to level 4 increase weight up to 5t and that only increases ballistic protection, it does nothing for mines. There is no level 5 add on for it nor would you even want to make it that heavy. You would have to add some sort of APS to it because this can't survive in a conflict as low intensity as Mali. Guess what, Trophy still doesn't stop IEDs which are the biggest threat these days. Even the VAB Mk2 has level 4 which is better mine protection than Anders will ever be and better protection unless you add a 4-5t armour kit. At 40t with the armour kit is 18hp/ tonne. Road range without armour is 600km, with is 450km. A better armoured VAB Mk 2 is 1000km. You are talking about a gas guzzling poor protected IFV here taking over the role of an MBT. Even a rusted T-72 with no ERA has better protection than this can ever dream of and still be in the same weight class. Your statements make no sense.

 

[Damian]

WPB Anders was designed with STANAG level 5 as maximum armor configuration. However this further could be increase in theory by using CAWA-2 armor modules or ERAWA-2 and CERAWA-1 ERA.

Also you fogets that WPB Anders was designed as technology demonstrator, it was not ready for production product, so it have it's problems, but placing that piece of obsolete junk VAB Mk2 above it is ridiculous. It is ridiculous to even compare wheeled platforms with tracked ones.

 

[arnabmit]

Times Now reporting that 900 T-72s are inoperable/not battle ready due to babus sitting on plans to replace worn out components and lack of upgrades.