Dassault pitches Rafale M for Indian Navy's IAC-II

Discussion in 'Indian Navy' started by WolfPack86, Feb 12, 2016.

  1. WolfPack86

    WolfPack86 Senior Member Senior Member

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    Dassault Aviation of France is offering the Indian Navy (IN) its Rafale M carrier-borne fighter to operate off the Indigenous Aircraft Carrier-II (IAC-II) it plans to build from 2020-21.
    In a presentation to the IN in New Delhi on 29 January, Dassault executives stressed the benefits of operating twin-engine Rafale Ms alongside the 36 Rafale Cs the Indian Air Force (IAF) is in advanced negotiations to acquire in flyaway condition. They emphasised that the 'commonality factor' in deploying Rafale Ms would operationally benefit the IN in sourcing spares and accessing the IAF's maintenance, repair, and overhaul (MRO) facilities for the French fighters, industry sources have told IHS Jane's .
    http://www.janes.com/article/57966/dassault-pitches-rafale-m-for-indian-navy-s-iac-ii
     
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  3. Gessler

    Gessler Regular Member

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    Rafale-M is the only logical solution for an aircraft to be operating off the first-of-class IAC-2 by ~2025 time period. By late 2020s, they will be joined by a naval version of AMCA or FGFA.

    F-35, F/A-18SH, SeaGripen, MiGs are out of the question.
     
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  4. salute

    salute Senior Member Senior Member

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    yeah not gonna be any usa jets on indian ACs only american helicopters,

    fuck those swedish jets why they are still around here,

    and migs gonna be on vikrant.
     
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  5. lookieloo

    lookieloo Regular Member

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    That timeline is doubtful for FGFA and downright laughable for AMCA.
     
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  6. Gessler

    Gessler Regular Member

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    FGFA would definitely be in service with IAF by then, in substantial numbers (close to 50 or so). That would be a good time to start testing a navalised version if IN wants it.

    AMCA by that time would be possible if it's starts off as a Navy plane, and then goes to AF later on.
     
  7. garg_bharat

    garg_bharat Senior Member Senior Member

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    Indian navy is committed to LCA-N. In addition, IN can always buy more Mig-29.

    It is not necessary for Indian Navy to behave or look like a foreign navy.

    A capital ship requires an entire support structure. What INS Vishal will look like is not finalized.

    The logical thing is IN goes for three similar carriers as was initially thought, that is, copies of INS Vikrant.

    Logically next ship should already be building now. Of course foreigners always succeed in delaying Indian projects.
     
  8. garg_bharat

    garg_bharat Senior Member Senior Member

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    IN fighter fleet is small and it cannot afford several fighter types.
     
  9. warrior monk

    warrior monk Regular Member

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    IAC-II if it is nuclear will not see the light of the day before 2030 , anyone who knows anything about reactor physics will tell you that India has not even begun preliminary design of a reactor for Aircraft carrier they are occupied with SSBN/SSN reactor design and have to fulfill this before jumping on to a Naval surface reactor.
    No Rafale-M should be bought for a AC which will come 14 years in the future and definitely no F-35C .
    Our Indian Navy had put out a 15 years indigenous program how does Rafale -M fit into the program
     
  10. abingdonboy

    abingdonboy Senior Member Senior Member

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    Entirely wrong analysis. This is nothing to do with foreigners- the IN wants a 65,000+ ton CATOBAR carrier (likely with EMALS and thus N-powered). The N-LCA isn't an option because it isn't an air superirotiy fighter and is being small and single engined is barely suitable for the carrier role but the IN wants to support local efforts so the N-LCA will be a decent Tech Demonstrater, little more. The MiG-29K is also not able to take off using catapults wich means the IN HAS to go for a third option- Rafale-M or F-35C. Between these choices the Rafale is the clear winner.

    Because there is no Indian carrier fighter able to take off using catapults as capable as the Rafale-M in any stage of devlopment.
     
  11. abingdonboy

    abingdonboy Senior Member Senior Member

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    This procurement is for the long term, by the time these fighters are in service (2024/5) India will have the third largest economy in the world and India's defenc ebudget will be >$120BN USD a year.Money really isn't an issue.
     
  12. abingdonboy

    abingdonboy Senior Member Senior Member

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    Don't think the N-FGFA will ever become a reality sadly. it is far too large (which is a factor that made the IN opt for the MiG-29K over the Su-33) for carrier ops and it is unlikley to be able to launch from catapults- a major drawback.
     
  13. warrior monk

    warrior monk Regular Member

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    And signing a deal for an aircraft on the flight deck of an aircraft carrier which will not come before 2030 since our reactor design has not even begun hell they are having problems with Arihant's under powered reactor . I think we should wait a little bit
     
  14. Gessler

    Gessler Regular Member

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    I must say I do share your skepticism regarding N-FGFA.

    But, it really depends on what IN would want. If a naval PAK-FA is coming, it means it's primary customer could be the Russian Navy (unless they come up with a new, smaller 5th gen fighter). That means IN can play with the option for making it CATOBAR-compatible while using the IAF FGFA as a testbed.

    If IN really wants a 5th generation air-superiority fighter, FGFA is the way to go.

    But with AMCA on the anvil and Rafale's DEDIRA mod (by ~2025) could mean that IN won't need a naval FGFA after all. If a situation develops where they actually need it, IAF's maritime squadrons can back them up.
     
  15. salute

    salute Senior Member Senior Member

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    if iac 2 gonna come after 2025 even if it is non nuclear powered,

    and if its n powered its gonna take beyond 2025,

    thats should be plenty of time for amca and navy lca,

    navy gonna use migs upto then as already migs gonna be on vikrant,

    and instead of american or french jets,its gonna be american or french helicopters on them.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2016
  16. garg_bharat

    garg_bharat Senior Member Senior Member

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    Conventional powered carrier makes more sense for india. The area of action of an Indian carrier will stay within 2000 km of Indian mainland due to a host of factors.

    India's main concerns remain security of oil supply from gulf, and security of islands. These main objectives do not require a nuclear powered carrier.
     
  17. abingdonboy

    abingdonboy Senior Member Senior Member

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    No one is making any orders yet, Dassualt is just pitching and the IN is weighing up its options, they have about 5-6 years to make a choice- ample time to evaluate all options. The IAC-2 will be in service by 2027 IMO.

    The trend for carrier aviation is for medium sized fighters- MiG-29K, F-18, Rafale-M, F-35C etc. The "big hitters" F-14 and Su-33 have been traded in for them and if the USN with 100,000+ ton carriers has made this call then it applies even more to the IN's 65,000 ton carriers.

    Going for the Rafale-M instead of the FGFA will alllow for a 40-50% larger air group from what I can tell. Of course this all rests on whether the FGFA can be modified to take off from catapults which may never even happen so the Rafale-M is the clear choice.

    In the long term the AMCA should be the IN's future 5th gen carrier borne fighter. Ensure it can take off from catapults and pump as much know how and money into it as possible (hopeflly a tie up with Israel or France or both), the AMCA will be nice to have for the IAF but, IMHO, it is ESSENTIAL for the future of the IN. Rafale-Ms and N-AMCAs will be a formiddable combination and unmatched except by the USN (even then, I think the N-AMCA with two engines and an optimised design would give the F-35C a run for its money once it is fully matured).


    This to me seems like the most logical roadmap for the IN by 2030-5. They are the ones with the long term critical perspective plans and they can get this done.
     
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  18. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    If rafaele is everything the French claim why haven't there been more orders for it? Even after showing capability in Libya and air shows not many orders.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  19. abingdonboy

    abingdonboy Senior Member Senior Member

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    It's a pretty expensive proposition for most nations and much of the world is actually cutting its defence budget. Recently the Rafale has seen quite a turnaround in its fortunes- export success in Egypt and advanced talks with Qatar, UAE, India and Malysia.

    Of all the MMRCA contenders the F-18 and F-16 are only the true export successes mostly simply because they are mass produced and in American service. The MiG-35 has 0 orders, the Gripen is so so on this front and outside of the partner nations(and cash rich Saudi Arabia) the EFT has no success.

    Every open comparison in this class has clear winner- the Rafale; the Swiss, Japanese, Koreans and Indians all came to the same conclusion. It was only after poltical compulsions got involved that these succesful technical evaluations failed to translate into orders.
     
  20. salute

    salute Senior Member Senior Member

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    the navy amca gonna be mature beyond 2030 so there is gap for medium range jet which is big for navy lca which if ever happen,

    so either rafale m or continue migs but then migs are not compatible with emals are they,

    maybe the it depends on how many AC navy gonna build.
     
  21. sesha_maruthi27

    sesha_maruthi27 Senior Member Senior Member

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    I hope that IAC-2 will get PAK-FA naval variant...
     

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