Comparative study of Indian Air Force and Pakistan Air Force

[LETHALFORCE]

India has yet to choose an engine for the LCA after the failure of the kaveri, dont you think that 400 let alone 1000 is to much of wishfull thinking?

I think they will try both the GE and European engines and see which to go with, but these numbers are high with an indigenous engine i would say yes but with an imported engine i doubt it.

 

[raider]

I think they will try both the GE and European engines and see which to go with, but these numbers are high with an indigenous engine i would say yes but with an imported engine i doubt it.

I think think the IAF is fast dropping the prospects for the LCA after the first 20 are ordered. India has already started trials for the MRCA, but honestly if I were an indian I would lobby very hard for the 12 billion to be spent on a indiginous project where people could be employeed and the country gain from the knowledge.

12 billion dollars is a very big sum of money to be spent on imported fighter jets

 

[LETHALFORCE]

I think think the IAF is fast dropping the prospects for the LCA after the first 20 are ordered. India has already started trials for the MRCA, but honestly if I were an indian I would lobby very hard for the 12 billion to be spent on a indiginous project where people could be employeed and the country gain from the knowledge.

12 billion dollars is a very big sum of money to be spent on imported fighter jets

i agree, to give that kind of money away is a total waste. But LCA is more or less complete but the increased thrust was what has caused the delay, even kaveri was ok and used elsewhere .

 

[A.V.]

I think think the IAF is fast dropping the prospects for the LCA after the first 20 are ordered. India has already started trials for the MRCA, but honestly if I were an indian I would lobby very hard for the 12 billion to be spent on a indiginous project where people could be employeed and the country gain from the knowledge.

12 billion dollars is a very big sum of money to be spent on imported fighter jets

i think you forgot to mention that a majority of the mrca planes will be manufactured in india via a TOT which should generate enough employment and technical know how
just take the example of the mki which will be fully produced in india by next year , by full production i mean all the parts will be fully manufactured in india by the indians

refer to the mki thread here

 

[ahmedsid]

The MCA is a new project, and has been barely a year since it was announced! How can you ask to see it flying around? Its not a JF17 Buddy! Its a different League altogether!

 

[raider]

i think you forgot to mention that a majority of the mrca planes will be manufactured in india via a TOT which should generate enough employment and technical know how
just take the example of the mki which will be fully produced in india by next year , by full production i mean all the parts will be fully manufactured in india by the indians

refer to the mki thread here

I know but TOT in this sense is quit different. India still wouldnt be able to manufacter the engines and other advanced avionics that It would if it started its own project. I bet if 12 billion dollars were instead funneled into the LCA it could actually turn out to be better than half the planes in the MRCA competition

 

[A.V.]

I know but TOT in this sense is quit different. India still wouldnt be able to manufacter the engines and other advanced avionics that It would if it started its own project. I bet if 12 billion dollars were instead funneled into the LCA it could actually turn out to be better than half the planes in the MRCA competition

mate there is no shortage of funds for the LCA program i do not follow the LCA program in detail but many gurus on this forum do ,if you take a look at the LCA thread here you will find that a block 2 version is already underway with advanced tech and india is not shying away from co-ordinating with foreign countries here

now why is the block 2 already under way when the block 1is not yet inducted?
its because of the time delay that was created in the development of the project

so mrca is the result of falling sqdrn which needs to be addressed soon the LCA is very much there where its place is the only difference is the delay caused a high cost ratio

 

[wild goose]

I know but TOT in this sense is quit different. India still wouldnt be able to manufacter the engines and other advanced avionics that It would if it started its own project. I bet if 12 billion dollars were instead funneled into the LCA it could actually turn out to be better than half the planes in the MRCA competition

Good point,

may be the IAF is planning to induct from the 'other half' , the half which is better than the 12bn$ invested LCA.

BTW, most mordern European fighters for 12bn$ and a 'moderate' LCA with the current funding seems to be the saner option than an all the $$$ in one LCA.

And above all, investing more $ won't make a light fighter do the job of a medium fighter.

 

[raider]

Good point,

may be the IAF is planning to induct from the 'other half' , the half which is better than the 12bn$ invested LCA.

BTW, most mordern European fighters for 12bn$ and a 'moderate' LCA with the current funding seems to be the saner option than an all the $$$ in one LCA.

And above all, investing more $ won't make a light fighter do the job of a medium fighter.

If india wasnt interested in a multi-role light fighter then the gripen wouldnt be in the competition

 

[wild goose]

If india wasnt interested in a multi-role light fighter then the gripen wouldnt be in the competition[


The compliant proposal submitted by Saab was to the RFP for Indian Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA)

India seems to be interested in a medium range fighter.Just because of one of the contender, the competition is not going to be a LMRCA.

May be unique qualities like ease of maintenance, ability to use roads as runways, sustained sortie generation etc might have prompted the IAF to send RFP to Saab.

Moreover, these western fighters can be inducted quicker as a lot of phasing out ceremonies are to be held in IAF bases in the near future.

 

[nitesh]

I think think the IAF is fast dropping the prospects for the LCA after the first 20 are ordered. India has already started trials for the MRCA, but honestly if I were an indian I would lobby very hard for the 12 billion to be spent on a indiginous project where people could be employeed and the country gain from the knowledge.

12 billion dollars is a very big sum of money to be spent on imported fighter jets

False statement. The engine tender is for 99 engines with option of future more.

 

[natarajan]

lca is light combat a/c and it has different capabilities so it cannot replace multi role ac so we dont have any project for mrca but we are having only for lca,mca.

 

[p2prada]

I think think the IAF is fast dropping the prospects for the LCA after the first 20 are ordered.

You are right if you consider you are talking about LCA Mk1. IAF is more interested in the heavier LCA Mk2. Maybe not more than 70 LCA Mk1 will be ordered. Possibly scaled up to 200+. My bet is on the 20 to 70.

But, IAF's real interest lies in LCA Mk2 and not MK1.

 

[SATISH]

People, LCA is a delta wing aircraft. So most of the Close in fights are going to be in the vertical and Delta has a tendency to bleed energy in turns. That is why the Air Force has asked for more TWR for LCA. The IAF is more keen to induct the LCA MK2 rather than the MoD. Simply because of depleting force levels. And EJ 200 might win because there are minimum airframe changes required for it.

 

[kuku]

Wouldnt it be premature to mention that india has MCA and PAKFA in the pipeline while claiming pakistan doesnt have the J-XX???

Perhaps when the J-XX becomes public and PRC announces it is going to provide Pakistan with these planes.

Just my thought. Lastly in a recent interview the pak air force chief marshall claimed that pakistan will go for more F-10s after indias MRCA order in order to counter the threat. The F-10's in pakistan are widely considered to be upgrade J-10B's. Mainly the PAF has tagged its future on 2 fighters which are the JF-17 and the J-10B.

The current JF-17 version has come a very long way and theirs been recent reports that a block 2 version will be introduced soon with greater payload, AESA radar, and a WS-10 engine. The J-10B shouldnt be taken lightly either since the chinese have had years of experience to gain in countering the SU-30 and they seem pretty satisfied with it in dealing with the US airforce fighter in a possible war.

It will be a very effective way (upgrading the J-10 will make it expensive, may be still less expensive then western options).

JF-17 should perform well as the mainstay in interceptor/light attack roles, adding a AESA to the 200+ fleet would drain a lot of resources even for a nation with a higher budget. WS-10 engine or a chinese copy of the current russian engine would be better logistics wise, however with the dwindling interest in the project, will PLA be interested?

I think the greater worry should be the capability of the plane, J-10 was not made to counter any specific version of Su-30, and if it ever has to go against the USAF, i dont think it will be able to take off from the runway to start the fight. PAF has more options that PLA-AF, they can source the radar, weapons, EW equipment from all around the world.

Either way both airforces are becomming very capable, but the PAF is fast closing the gap that the IAF currently has. The PAF will be purchasing alot more AWAC planes (5 from sweden, and 4 from china) but, india will still retain the qualitative edge over pakistan. Also I doubt the IAF would focus all its planes on pakistan (it has to maintain fighters near the chinese border as well) whereby the PAF doesnt have to worry about a similar situation

From the open sources it seems for a long time PAF went without any planes which had medium ranged air to air missiles which was a big gap especially after induction of such planes started in InAF, the gap is now starting to close after the F-16 grant and JF-17 production.

AWACs will take a long time to be truly effective in the region, they have to get to know how to operate with them first and then train all the pilots and crews.

If Pakistan improves its economic state maintaing these assets would not be a problem.

Heres my guess for the inventory of both air forces

PAF
-250 JF-17
-36 F-16 c/d
-50 F-16 mlu
-80-120 J-10B
-40 Mirage Rose
-5 Eireye
-4 Chinese awacs

IAF
-126 MRCA
-230 SU-30mki
-48 Mirage 2000
-48 Mig-29's
-48 LCA's
-3 Phalcon awacs

This is based off of the current procurement plans for both airforces. For the LCA ive only taken into consideration the current orders the IAF said it would place in total

You forget the Upgraded Jags (60-70) and Mig-27s(around 65), there are around 90 Mig-29s.
100 Mig-21 Bisons will have to operate till 2015-2020.

Su-30, JF-17, MMRCA, and LCA are not going to arrive to their maximum estimated numbers in a instant, this will take a decade or more, so every year the numbers would be very different.

In AWACs InAF is looking for 6 A-50I Phalcons and around 20 more domestic AEW planes on a Embraer EMB-145 type platform, the important part will be a domestic operational active array which the DRDO is developing (contracts for consulting on integration will be awarded shortly).

If the estimated 200-250 induction in the number of LCAs that the ministry of defence was planning does not take place the MMRCA order will jump up to compensate (total production of the plane in house is a requirement) numbers.

Total strength that the InAF is aiming for is 42 squadrons by 2022, that would be around 750-800 planes.
IAF fighter squadrons to rise to 42 by 2022: Antony - India - NEWS - The Times of India

 

[AJSINGH]

India has always maintained air superiority and will also so so in the future ...now IAF is going through some small time glitches but will surely be better in time to come
and yes one more thing i would like IAF to get is SA21 sam system ...the best system currently ...kudos to russian genius

 

[Sabir]

Wouldnt it be premature to mention that india has MCA and PAKFA in the pipeline while claiming pakistan doesnt have the J-XX???

For that first China has to develop the said fifth generation aircraft...and for that somebody else (read Russia) has to produce one first as China will be needed a pirated copy.Is Pakistan a partner in J-XX project? 5th gen aircraft is too costly to gift some one. I am sure Russia would not consider India as a partner if they had the economic strength of Soviet era.

Just my thought. Lastly in a recent interview the pak air force chief marshall claimed that pakistan will go for more F-10s after indias MRCA order in order to counter the threat. The F-10's in pakistan are widely considered to be upgrade J-10B's. Mainly the PAF has tagged its future on 2 fighters which are the JF-17 and the J-10B. The current JF-17 version has come a very long way and theirs been recent reports that a block 2 version will be introduced soon with greater payload, AESA radar, and a WS-10 engine. The J-10B shouldnt be taken lightly either since the chinese have had years of experience to gain in countering the SU-30 and they seem pretty satisfied with it in dealing with the US airforce fighter in a possible war.

I dont think JF-17 or LCA-Tejas with this their Shorter range can match Su-30 MKI or latest planes in MRCA. So tha Gap will actually increase if Pakistan dont look beyond China. J-10B I think will be better one.

Either way both airforces are becomming very capable, but the PAF is fast closing the gap that the IAF currently has. The PAF will be purchasing alot more AWAC planes (5 from sweden, and 4 from china) but, india will still retain the qualitative edge over pakistan. Also I doubt the IAF would focus all its planes on pakistan (it has to maintain fighters near the chinese border as well) whereby the PAF doesnt have to worry about a similar situation

PAF buying 5 platforms from Swiden but four of them will be fitted with Erieye radar.

Heres my guess for the inventory of both air forces

PAF
-250 JF-17
-36 F-16 c/d
-50 F-16 mlu
-80-120 J-10B
-40 Mirage Rose
-5 Eireye
-4 Chinese awacs

IAF
-126 MRCA
-230 SU-30mki
-48 Mirage 2000
-48 Mig-29's
-48 LCA's
-3 Phalcon awacs

Number of Mig-29 is not right. It is around 56 and dont forget the new orders for Mig-29k for INS Vikramaditya. No AWACS in both sides to be modified a bit. And if 200+ LCA is not included the number of MRCA will be increased. And you can be sure Su-PAK-FA/FGFA will be operational much before MCA and J-XX
In 2008 India ordered 3 more Phalcons from Israel. So there wl be 6 Falcons in total. India has its own awacs prgramme and you must have seen that India has ordered a brazilian firm for 3 platforms for its AWACS
This is based off of the current procurement plans for both airforces. For the LCA ive only taken into consideration the current orders the IAF said it would place in total

It seems you anticipate a future inventory. Then why so cruel on LCA?

 

[John]

well the LCA mk-1 will be ordered and like prada said i anticipate about 40-70 lca mk-1 being ordered and they will be used for the 4th and last leg of training for IAF pilots before they enter squadron service. The LCA mk-1 is indeed the most ideal platform as a supersonic trainer which will make the transition easier for the pilot. as of now going from sub-sonic to supersonic is a massive jump and IAF wants a fourth phase of training, this will make soon us the only air force to have 4 stages of training for its pilots.

LCA mk-2 will have larger wings, newer inlets, better aerodynamics, my take is the LCA mk-2 will resemble the N-lca's design in its upper half, the N-LCA has better aerodynamics, drooped down nose, levcons etc. They are not shying away from massive re-design hence its hard to say whether the GE or EJ will be chosen. GE's414 has higher thrust and that can be increased to as much as 120KN from its present 98KN, it also has better FOB survivability, is optimized for all weather performance and not to mention being a maritime engine on the SH, its reliability is legendary. EJ2000 is lighter has lower fuel burn but lower thrust as well, though growth versions are possible, they are not funded, GE already has EPE with over 118KN of thrust which is available for F-18IN if we go for it. Now which engine is chosen will depend on the LCA mk-2's max. take off weight. the LCA mk-2 will be lighter than the Gripen NG which on the GE already super cruises over mach 1.2 with stores. This decision will take time and wont happen till a full working model is ready.

LCA has enough funding, the problem is the IAF's changing requirements and threat perceptions, which is why the LCA mk-2 is bound to outperform any known single engine aircraft.

BTW the Gripen NG on any given day is much more multirole than the J-17 and J10B can ever dream to be. It can readily deploy more PGMs and weapons than the EF or Rafale. Its weapons flexibility matches upto the SH, F-16IN. Its has the cheapest life cycle costs, it only might fall short in combat range compared to the others in the MRCA race. With Northrop seeking US govt. permission to offer SABR radars for the Gripen NG and EF tranche 3, Gripen NG should not be underestimated.

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/aircraft/fighter/gripen/gripen_stores.jpg

btw no matter whether pak gets J-10B or J-17, they wont be able to counter the mig-21 bison to begin with, lets not even talk about the MRCA. If the SH is chosen well, we'll have 126+ aircraft with awacs abilities, with just a couple of SHs armed with 12 BVR and 2 WVR A2A missiles each, thats 28 missiles in total, together capable of downing an entire squadron of fighters.

India wont get the SA-21 because we are working on MR-SAM and LR-SAM. for longer range threats we'll get AEGIS SM-3/6 on our ships.

Well the WS-10 and AESA for China well, thank god they haven't been exposed to TVC or AESA before hence they wont be able to actually come up with it till much later. We know that without previous exposure to such technology and inability to reverse engineer makes it almost impossible for Chinese to develop something completely by themselves, so i expect they will be scratching their heads on AESA/TVC till at least well beyond 2016. We already have Con-di nozzels on our Kaveri.

well no exposure to super cruise, AESA, TVC also makes any J-supposed xx a lame duck, even if it does take shape, it will have ample trouble from upgraded MKis with smart skin, AESA and what not. We'll always have an edge over both Pak and China in air dominance.

 

[AJSINGH]

rightly said so.....but u do agree that SA 21 groweler is the best SAM system

 

[John]

rightly said so.....but u do agree that SA 21 groweler is the best SAM system

well longest range land based SAM sure, but since China seems have taken part in development process, i question the effectiveness of the system. The fact is the Chinese even copied its, though they don't have a missile that can hit 400km away. The fact is that the S-400 can handle targets with max. range of 3500km and max speed of 4.5km/second or a little over mach 13.2.

Now our PAD/AAD together have the ability to take care of threats with a max. range of 3500km. These PAD/AAD have gimballed warheads, can take care of Agni-2 style targets with speeds over mach 15. Hence our AAD/PAD have better ABM abilities than S-400.

Now LR/MR-SAM will be enough take take care of border air defense combined with AAD/PAD, Akash, Spyder SAMs. SM-3 interceptors have higher flight ceilings and longer ranges and can handle threats traveling well over 20,000km, based on ships they will give us good protection from naval attack. I would love to see upgraded SM-3/6 in our inventory. S-400 is a joke compared to that. Besides Raytheon is working on land based SM-3 interceptors.

SM-6 is ideal for Ship based air defense against maneuverable aircraft and cruise missiles, it has max range well over 180km.

Ares Homepage

On February 21, 2008 at 3:26 am (UTC) the USS Lake Erie, a Ticonderoga-class guided-missile cruiser, fired a single SM-3 missile, hit and successfully destroyed the satellite, with a closing velocity of about 22,783 mph (36,667 km/h) while the satellite was 247 kilometers (133 nautical miles) above the Pacific Ocean.

Two new anti ballistic missiles that can intercept IRBM/ICBMs are being developed. These high speed missiles (AD-1 and AD-2) are being developed to intercept ballistic missiles with the range of 5000 km. The test trials of these two systems is expected to take place in 2011. The new missile will be similar the THAAD missile deployed by the U.S.A. These missiles will have to travel at hypersonic speeds and will require radars with scan capability of over 1500 kilometers to successfully intercept the target.

Since we are working on missiles to deal with ICBMs and by 2011 we'll test them and we'll have something much better than the S-400 or any Russian counterpart, forget the s-400, its no use for us.