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Ray

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Integration of Values in Contemporary China


Author: Zhao Fujie
Date:&nbsp2003-5-27

Now China is in a process of social transformation preoccupied with the theme of modernization. During the process, profound changes are bound to happen to people""s values, i.e. the disintegration of the former value system and the formation of a new one. The reconstruction of the new value system demands the integration of the various dispersing and conflicting values that come into being due to the changing society. Here, integration means to unite the various existing values into a dynamically and functionally structural whole. "Historical advancement is always accompanied by a dynamic interaction between integration and disintegration. But at certain particular stage of the process, one of them always has the advantage over its counterpart."[1] At the initial stage of the opening up and reform in the 1980s, the disintegration of the former value system was the major trend while in the 1990s, with the establishment of the market economy and the pursuit of a rule-by-law society, value integration has taken the place of its counterpart. Consequently, it is also an unavoidable factor in our purposeful construction of the value system of the socialism with Chinese characteristics.

â… . Necessity of value integration

The integration of the existing values requires a full acknowledgement of the contemporary value trends in China. As a whole, Chinese society is involved in a course of transformation from a traditional agricultural civilization to a modern industrial civilization. Analysis of the value factors and the relations among them shows that China is confronting with a complex and dispersing value system. The system itself features the interweaving of the old and the new, the coexistence of the domestic and the alien, the overlapping of the common and the peculiar in addition to the conflict between the majority and the minority.

1. Coexistence of Synchonical values

Having long experienced the agrarian civilization, China is one of the lagging-behind countries where the movement towards the industrial civilization was stimulated and oppressed by the Western civilization. This historical factor has caused the coexistence of agricultural, industrial and informational economies that would take place in a synchronical form. In response to this is the coexistence of three main trends in the mind of Chinese people: the traditional values saturated with ethic-based connotations, the modern values marked by science, and the postmodern cultural values characterized with the reduced subject and transcendental reason. Besides conflicting with each other, they are drawn into opposite directions in the process of performing their social functions.

2. The interweaving of heterogeneous values

There are 3 main types of origins for the values existing in modern China: first, the long native history and the deep sedimentation of our traditional culture; second, the Western culture flowing into China since mid-19th century; third, the Marxist culture introduced to China since May 4th Movement in 1919. The values originated from Chinese traditional culture, though having been criticized repeatedly since the May 4th Movement, are still casting important influence on the Chinese people and playing a distinct role. Originated from the Western culture, the second set of values are interpreted by the Chinese people in their own way of thinking and their own value consciousness in modem times, still maintaining quite many of its own characters while being assimilated into the spiritual world of the Chinese people. Cultivated in the Marxist culture and integrated with the Chinese reality mainly through the efforts of Mao Zedong and other politicians and theorists, the third set of values have been developed and transformed creatively, and acquired outstanding Chinese characteristics. They still have their own distinct qualities in contrast with its other two counterparts. The coexistence and interweaving, fusion and segregation of the three main types of values in modern China make the value system extraordinarily colorful and complicated.

3. Conflicts among Different Value Orientations

Marxism, Mao Zedong thought and Deng Xiaoping theory are deployed as the guidance for the socialism with Chinese characteristics. They occupy the core position in China""s ideology structure today. Apart from the socialist ideology guided by Marxism, there exist some non-socialist ones including those of the bourgeoisie, the petty bourgeoisie and the dregs of the traditional feudal ideology. The values and their orientations wrapped up in these ideologies are different from one another. While the socialist ideology taking a leading position in the general structure, the non-socialist ones are still playing a very important part. Hence there arise the contradictions and conflicts among the heterogeneous values. In addition, with the various components and aspects of value system, not all of the existing values belong to the ideology even though they are controlled and restricted by the latter. Therefore, there are conflicts between them and their ideological counterparts.

4. The Contradiction between Common and Particular Values

Concerning the value identification, some common values are accepted by the majority, and many other particular values are held by only a group or even some individuals. The former includes the universal values based on the common interests of mankind, the national values originated from the Chinese cultural heritage, and the socialist values reflecting the primary interests of the Chinese citizens in general. The latter contains those having their origins in cultures of different regions and nations apart from those based on the interests of certain groups of people or of some individuals. The distinction between commonality and particularity is not absolute because the two sets of values can in certain case be transformed into each other, therefore, some common values can change into particular ones when viewed from another perspective. For instance, the values originated from Chinese cultural tradition are common to the Chinese people. But they tend to be particular with regard to the human beings as a whole. The difference between commonality and particularity, though being relative, leads to the contradiction between them.

The difference and contradiction abovementioned lead to the dispersing, disorderly and unstable phenomenon in the values, and the chaos in people""s value orientations to certain extent. Without value synthesis, it is neither possible to construct an orderly and harmonious value system of a socialist kind with Chinese characteristics, nor is it possible to make the values play an active and effective role in maintaining social stability and promoting the sound development in China.

â…¡. The Goal of Value Synthesis

The general goal of the value synthesis in China today is to construct a socialist value system with Chinese characteristics. The system has such basic connotations and a logic structure as follows:

1. The Conception of Masses as the Value Subjects

Value subject is the origin of value. The affirmation of the subject is the prerequisite for the establishment of values. Therefore, in any value system, value subject is always logically the starting point. The essential distinction between Marxist values and the non-Marxist ones is that the former regards the masses as the social and historical value subject, and treats their interests and needs as the fundamental standard for all the values. The socialist liberation and development of productive forces aim to meet the people""s ever-increasing needs in material and cultural domains. "Being favorable to raising the people""s living standards" is the core of "three favorables". This is the evaluation criterion proposed by Deng Xiaoping. Among the "three representings" proposed by Jiang Zemin, what represents the people""s fundamental interests is the ultimate goal. As pointed out by Jiang, what Deng always took as the basic standard for all the work is "whether the people support," "whether the people agree," whether the people are satisfied," and "whether the people permit." All this fully demonstrates the important thought of regarding the people as value subject, and evidently clarifies the basic features of the subject concept among the socialist values. It is not only different from its counterpart in class societies where the exploiters and rulers are considered the subject, but also from its counterpart in the individualism prevailing in the Western society.

2. The Conception of Labor as Value Basis

Labor is the basic activity of the socialist value subject. With relevant objects and means, labor is the source of all values and the creator of all the social material and spiritual wealth. Therefore, all the values in socialist society can be generalized as labor value. Labor incorporates manual and mental work. With the development of labor forces and the diversity of labor means, intelligence plays a more and more important part, and meanwhile its fusion with physical power has developed to a higher degree. Since the essence of socialism is "liberation and development of productive forces, elimination of exploitation and polarization, and the ultimate achievement of prosperity for all," labor has become the common value criterion shared by every citizen in the socialist society, and at the same time the fundamental value of the society. Taking labor as value criterion is not only a negation of the "bureaucracy-based" feudal values, and a transcendence over the "money-based " capitalist values, but also the adherence to the Marxist values. In modem times, only by encouraging labor-based values and advocating again the slogan that "Work is glory", can we realize the goal of modernization while resisting the pernicious influence of the " bureaucracy-based" and "money-based" values. Meanwhile, we can keep aloof the harmful effect from other values, namely, "Power is almighty", "Money is everything", and "Pleasure-seeking hedonism is all."

3. The Unity of Scientific Rationality and Humanism as Instrumental Value

Both the optimization of labor value and the intensification of labor""s function of creating values call for the improvement of laborers"" quality, which consists of two elements, namely, intellectual and moral. The former includes experience, knowledge, skill, and capability, etc. The latter consists of will, morality, thoughts, initiative, and the like. The former should be improved through scientific rationality while the latter requires education through humanism. Therefore, the unity of scientific rationality and humanism constitutes the most basic of all the Chinese instrumental values. As far as their correlate is concerned, science and technology can be identified with instrumental rationality while humanism with value rationality. Both of them belong to the scope of instrumental values, and serve as two columns to sustain the human values when compared with the individual values and with the objective of social civilization.

4. Harmony as the Relational Value

The value subject exists in relations. Similarly, the subjective labor takes place in relations. The subjective value and its labor could be exerted to different extents in different relational patterns. Therefore, to the subject, "relation" refers to a kind of value. In socialist society, the value subject (people) and the value criterion (labor) are in a double-fold relationship: one is between human being and nature, and the other between individuals and collectives. The basic characteristics of the double-fold relationship should be characterized with harmony because socialism has transcended the capitalist relational patterns in which people view nature as the target to be conquered, and the minority tend to exploit the majority. At present time when the strategy of sustainable development is being carried out, it is necessary to set up a harmonious relationship between mankind and nature; and in light of the socialism""s essential task to "eliminate exploitation", it is necessary to set up an equal and harmonious relationship between individuals and collectives, individuals and individuals. Of course, harmony doesn""t mean denying all competitions and contradictions. Instead it means to let differences, competitions, and contradictions exist and take place in a harmonious manner. In the realm of social life, a harmonious social relationship is the foundation of obtaining a good social order; the value function of such socialist norms as morality, law, discipline and convention lies in the forming of a harmonious social relationship and social order, which inevitably calls for the combination of "ruling the state by law" and "ruling the state by virtue" into a general strategy of governing the country.

5. Modern Civilization as the Value Objective.

The practical value objective of socialism with Chinese characteristics is to realize modernization, construct modem material civilization, institutional civilization, and moral civilization. The value connotation of material civilization is to develop economy, eliminate exploitation, and achieve common wealth and national prosperity in order to meet people""s increasing demands in material and spiritual life. The core value of institutional civilization is to conduct political system reform, construct the democratic politics and build a country ruled by law, thus satisfying people""s political demands to administer the country as real masters and to enjoy various civil rights. The value connotation of moral civilization is to develop science and education, prosper literature and art, rectify ideology and morality, and form a good social mood in order to meet people""s increasing needs in cuttural and moral life. Since the value objective of modern civilization is a dynamic process of development, its three value connotations should be based on the concept of preliminary stage of socialism construction, and be gradually enhanced in accord with the social development.

6. An Individual""s Free and Full Development as the Lofty Ideal.

Grand as it may be, the value objective of socialism with Chinese characteristics is designed to serve merely as a "bridge" and "medium" which is expected to lead to the realization of a communist society as the greatest and ultimate ideal. Jiang Zemin, president of China, says in his report at the 15th plenary session of CPC Congress, "We are endeavoring to realize the ultimate goal of communism. Those who forget the great goal and those who don""t strive for the periodical work objectives of our Party at the socialist preliminary stage are not qualified Party members at all". Thus the practical value objective of socialism with Chinese characteristics has been put into the inner structure of integrated communist value ideals. Therefore, communist ideal should be considered a key link in the socialist value system with Chinese characteristics, and treated as the lofty ideal and ultimate concern. Instead of being a subjective supposition, it is a "practical movement aiming to eliminate the present conditions of injustice"; and instead of being a Utopian fantasy, it represents the necessary trend of historical development of mankind. The core of its value connotation is the whole and free development of human beings. According to Karl Marx, what will replace the old capitalist society will be such an entity where each person""s free development is prerequisite to all the people""s free development.[2] From the perspective of "the liberation of human being" at the stage of communist society, human beings will finally pass the prehistoric "realm of necessity" and enter the "realm of freedom".

To be brief, the value system of socialism with Chinese characteristics can be generalized into one with the working people as its value subject; with labor as its value criterion. Its value operation model features the unity of science and humanism, the harmony of mankind and nature, and the harmony of individuals and collectives. Accordingly its value objective is pointed to modem civilization and its ultimate value ideal is intended for human beings"" whole and full development. The integration of value system is to absorb, synthesize, and arrange the sound and reasonable factors of all the existing values into this orderly structure.

â…¢. Some Ways of Integrating Values

The integration of the values in modem Chinese society is not merely an objective historical process, but also a self-consciously designing process with the subject""s active participation. Considered from the perspective of the latter, the integration of values ought to be conducted through the general ways as follows:

1. Judge and distinguish between right and wrong, good and bad values according to the criterion that unifies people""s interests, historical rules and practical effects. Among the variety of prevailing values in China, some are reasonable, right, and positive, and others are unreasonable, wrong, and negative. Thus the first problem to be solved is to judge and distinguish between right and wrong, good and bad with the principal criterion abovementioned. In other words, only those which reflect people""s interests, correspond to the historical rules, and have good practical effects are right, reasonable, and positive values, and ought to be promoted and carried forward. On the contrary, those that violate the above-mentioned criterion are wrong, inferior, and negative values, and ought to be dropped or thrown away. People""s interests stand for the criterion of "goodness"; historical rules indicate the criterion of "truth"; and good practical effects suggest is the criterion of the combination of "goodness" with "truth". Only this criterion of trinity is the all-sided one to determine whether a value is right or not.

2. Coordinate between values of universality or commonality, and their counterparts of particularity and individuality in the tension of seeking common ground while reserving differences. Even the right and reasonable values are distinguished between commonality and particularity. Although the approach to "seeking common ground" presents the highly integrated state of values, it strangles their affluence and vigor. On the other hand, the approach to "seeking differences" presents the colorful state of value system, but weakens and disintegrates its commonality and coherence. The existing values in modern China and their commonality and particularity lie in three dimensions, and correspondingly retain their coordination in three kinds of tension as well. The first tension is between global values (such as peace, equality, development, environmental protection, etc.) and the local values. The second tension is between Chinese national values (such as the doctrine of the mean, loving people and treasuring things, respecting the right Tao and honoring virtues, etc.) and the regional, individual values. The third tension is between the values of socialism with Chinese characteristics and the individual non-ideological ones (such as one""s personality, interest, liking, artistic style, etc.). Only by maintaining the tension and coordination of identifying the similarities and reserving differences among the above-mentioned values of commonality and their counterparts of particularity, the collective spirit and the individual spirit can be complemented to each other such that the society will be full of vitality and dynamics, and will not fall into a chaos because of internal conflicts as a result of the loss of order, norms and balance.

3. Use synthetic, transformational and dialectically sublating approaches to deal properly with the relationship between the traditional values and modern ones, between the modern values and post-modern ones, and between exotic values and national ones. The socialist values with Chinese characteristics are neither completely equal with nor totally opposite to traditinal, exotic, and post-modern values. Instead they ought to and can absorb the reasonable and positive factors from various values at home and abroad, ancient and modem. However, this absorption is not to take in and put things together blindly. It ought to integrate them through synthetic, transformational and dialectically sublating means. By synthetic is meant the way of widely absorbing the reasonable and positive factors from various traditional, exotic, and post-modern values and arranging them into the socialist value system. By transformational is meant the way of endowing the values with timely characteristics and national features through reexplanation and re-elaboration. Under such circumstances, the Chinese traditional values are to be transformed into modern ones; the exotic values are to be transformed into national ones. What could be melted into the socialist values with Chinese characteristics through synthesis and transformation may involve, for instance, such Chinese values as the collective spirit, moral ideal, humanism, the oneness of heaven and man, making unremitting efforts to improve oneself, great virtue of being kind to all things, harmonious relationship, the doctrine of the mean, etc., and such Western values as individual freedom, utilitarian consciousness, democratic spirit, scientific rationality, rule of law, idea of competition, etc.

4. Guide and elevate the low values in the light of high values in order to sublimate human values and develop social civilization. There are different categories of human needs. The first category is composed of two hierarchies: material and spiritual. The second category is made up of three hierarchies, namely, the cognitive need (truth), the moral need (goodness), and the aesthetic need (beauty). All this gives rise to value contradictions and even conflicts at different levels, which in ancient China took the form of contradictions between righteousness and interests, rationality and desire (contradictions within the first level), and the contradictions between morality and intelligence, goodness and beauty (contradictions within the second level). Then, in the present-day China, they take the form of contradictions and conflicts between morality and interests, spiritual and material, morality and knowledge, and morality and aesthetics, etc. In order to coordinate the relationships among values of different levels, and to promote human and social progress through this coordination, the high values must be used to guide and elevate their low counterparts, that is, to guide interests in terms of righteousness, to guide desire in terms of rationality, to guide intelligence in terms of morality, to guide truth in terms of goodness, and to guide goodness in terms of beauty. All this is intended to make people, in their daily lives, "think of righteousness at the sight of profits" and "take things according to the principle of righteousness". Only through this integration can we continuously enhance to a higher level the human value pursuit, the people""s living standard, the human constitutive quality, and the social civilization in addition to accelerating the full development of both human being and society. The process of human development, if considered from the perspective of human needs, is a process in which the superior needs constantly surmount the inferior needs. Likewise, if considered from the perspective of concepts, it is a process in which human values keep being promoted from low levels to high levels. It is in this sense a process in which human beings keep transcending their animal nature. According to Karl Marx, eating, drinking, and reproduction, etc. are surely the real organisms of human beings. Nonetheless, if they are abstracted and separated from other fields of human activities and become the one and only ultimate goal, they are nothing but sheer animal organisms.[3]

(Tr. Ma Zhentao/Yang Shuxue)

http://bic.cass.cn/english/infoShow...ation=Home->Forum&BigClassID=4&SmallClassID=9
 

mattster

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Did you translate the article in Wenxuecity?

何所惧?

Kickok1975......I enjoy reading your posts. I guess the reason I appreciate your writing is because there is a certain intellectual honesty about your writing. But you are certainly not a typical Chinese guy. The typical Chinese guy is more like nimo_cn.

That said, the Chinese are a smart people, and smart people can always find a way to change for the better, and each generation get more progressive in thinking and values. You see this in both China and India, despite all the problems, screwed-up politics, and politicians.
The people find a way to rise above their circumstances.

As for my post....No, I did not translate it. The post is a direct result of having spent a large part of my first 25 years growing up around the Chinese in Malaysia. I dealt with them every single day - in school, outside school, basically everywhere. You learn something about people after dealing with them that long.

Finally I repeat to DFI members, I hope we dont waste time on DFI debating freedom in China. The CCP is not going away.
 
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luke

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That's the bitter truth hard to face but it's the fact there is no soil for democracy to born and grow in China, at least in today's China.
Can you tell me what's democracy?And are you sure the unrest happened in Egypt is democratic revolution?
Indian members should not spend time discussing the very issue with Chinese members anymore since no consent could possibly be made. Let Chinese history run its course and let time tells what's going to happen. Be it good or bad, only Chinese people will experience the most.
Every nation has their fate to face,no matter if you like it.I want to know what do you think is better to China.My classmates are busying in playing computer games now.I come here just
because I like politics.
Matstter is right; most of Chinese currently have no faith, no ideology except relentlessly pursuing money. Most of them don't know what the hell democracy is and have no respect on law and order. Just like this article says, we are a nation lack of basic spirit of freedom.
Then it seems it's better to you if Chinese has faith,ideology.But I think it's well now.What's wrong to make money when most Chinsese still is poor?As for democracy ,I think you should tell me what's the democracy in your mind then I can judge if it's true .And can you tell me what's the basic spirit of freedom?
 

luke

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I don't like this article and I'm very optimistic about China's future.I hate the self-righteousness of Chinese Scholars,especially their idea about farmer.Maybe they can't say the trendy words like democracy.But they are the people who create the history,not the Scholars.
 

luke

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The Chinese are ruthless when it comes to acquiring what they want. Ethics, morals, social values, etc dont matter. No one knows this better than the Chinese themselves. That is why so many Chinese support the CCP. They are very afraid of absolute chaos if everyone is allowed to do their own thing knowing how ruthless the Chinese can be to each other.
Your words make me remerber of Cultural Revolution.Maybe the people who ever suffer it will support you.But the democracy= everyone is allowed to do their own thing?
The only thing that can topple the CCP is an economic collapse resulting in massive numbers of new poor people created all over the country or a total stagnation of the economy. As long as the economy keep growing at 8-10%, the CCP will be fine.
I don't think so.Make sure most people has a job and a comfortable life is the basic.If the government even can't offer it,why do people still afford it no matter if it's democracy?
I think the vote is cheaper than violence to overthrow a government.
The Chinese would gladly trade freedom for wealth. Being rich is much more important than freedom of speech, or the right to vote, or the right to assemble, or freedom to freely practice religion. So as long the average Chinese worker's life keeps getting better, and he has more money in his pocket, and he has a better life than his parents - the CCP is safe and secure.
If you even can't afford the food ,will you seek the pursuit of spiritual.Most Chinese just has a not bad life, do you think they have the chance to seek? It's not just about economic.The CCP is just safe and secure now.
There are too many dumb threads about Freedom in China all over the media. They are all written by naive people who think there will be a revolution in China. It will never happen !!!
I think most people just image one China and then imagine what will happen in China,include Chinese.
 

JustForLaughs

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the last one, there were more curious observer and foreign journalist than actual protesters. hilarious failure. i dont know why this topic is so interesting to Indians. its not like Chinese want Indian style democracy.



Indian democracy loses to Chinese efficiency - by 160 votes
http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal...hinese-efficiency-by-160-votes_100191906.html

Indian democracy loses to Chinese efficiency - by 160 votes
http://www.siliconindia.com/shownew...inese_efficiency__by_160_votes-nid-56584.html


at start, 266 were for India. at the end, those were for India decreased by 5 and the undecided went to China.

"It was, declared moderator Edward Lucas of The Economist magazine - and author of 'The New Cold War', one of the "sharpest" swings he had seen."
 
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niharjhatn

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the last one, there were more curious observer and foreign journalist than actual protesters. hilarious failure. i dont know why this topic is so interesting to Indians. its not like Chinese want Indian style democracy.



Indian democracy loses to Chinese efficiency - by 160 votes
http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal...hinese-efficiency-by-160-votes_100191906.html

Indian democracy loses to Chinese efficiency - by 160 votes
http://www.siliconindia.com/shownew...inese_efficiency__by_160_votes-nid-56584.html


at start, 266 were for India. at the end, those were for India decreased by 5 and the undecided went to China.

"It was, declared moderator Edward Lucas of The Economist magazine - and author of 'The New Cold War', one of the "sharpest" swings he had seen."
Ha - a bunch of Britishers discussing the value of India's freedom? Get out of here!

Indians themselves have had experience of the power of religion and faith, unlike the God-less Chinese. It is that power that has pulled India through the atrocities of the Mughal and British raj - we don't need the Geographical Society in London to try and tell us that we have gone wrong and an authoritarian government under the Queen was the best way for India to move forward!

I wouldn't trade away our faith for a doubling of our GDP, and I am sure many of my brothers here would agree the same!
 

badguy2000

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Did you translate the article in Wenxuecity?

中国不需要 "茉莉花"ï¼Œä¸­å›½éœ€è¦"文化大革命"ï¼ 文学城博客精选

文学城博客 作者:悟空孙



一场"茉莉花"é©å‘½å¤§æœ‰å¸­å·å…¨çƒçš„势态,这个铲除专制统治的"革命运动"è®©ä¸å°‘人兴奋,甚至联想到中国,似乎中国的民主指日可待了。


要是在2、3年前,我也会像大家一样乐观兴奋,可今天,看了几本书,重温了中国历史和世界文明史之后,我感到,中国离茉莉花还很远,很远,甚至可以说,中国当下不需要茉莉花。


你要是以为我为共党辩护,你大错特错了。眼下的中国社会,腐败不公,一党专制已经到了前所未有的地步,难道还不该改朝换代吗?


该!可是换了又怎样??


中国不止换了一次了,除了宫廷内讧,外族入侵,陈胜吴广揭竿而起,朱元璋搓搓脚丫子上的泥,一把将皇帝拉下马。此后的黄巾、黄巢、红巾、李自成、张献忠、白莲教、洪秀全、小刀会甚至孙大炮、袁大头、蒋总裁、毛共产,浩浩荡荡几千年,谁比谁好?中国进步了吗?文明了吗?更别提什么民主了。


有人把民主当成万金油,觉得只要中国实行民主了,就万事大吉了。殊不知,中国离开真正的民主还有十万八千里。原因如下:


民主不仅仅是一种制度,民主更重要的是一种精神,一种文化。民主是西方人民从古希腊开始经过漫长的历史自我完善,自我发展,萌发在其文化中的一个基因元素。在中国这样一个专制文化酱缸里,即使有了民主的种子也没有相应的土壤让它发芽。


只要我们的文化还是崇尚权力权威,崇尚功利,制造奴才,没有科学精神,不尊重生命,民主就是一句空话。


也许你会反驳:那台湾呢?香港呢?


我说过了,看看四小龙都有什么特点?他们的民主土壤是哪里来的?这要回到刘晓波的"三百年"ååŠ¨è¨€è®ºé‚£é‡ŒåŽ»äº†ï¼Œæˆ‘们暂时放一放。


顺便提一下,最近看到这样一个新闻:"力促'思想回归'中央组织万名港澳公务员进京培训"ï¼ŒåŒæ—¶ï¼Œ"港澳公务员培训中心耗资2亿元在北京建成"ï¼Œå…¶ä¸­æ•™å­¦åŸ¹è®­åŒºã€é¤é¥®åŒºã€å­¦å‘˜å®¿èˆåŒºï¼Œç¾½æ¯›çƒé¦†ã€ç¯®çƒé¦†ã€ä¹’乓球馆、网球馆、台球室、健身房,地下停车场等设施一应俱全"ï¼Œä¸çŸ¥æœ‰æ²¡æœ‰æŒ‰æ‘©æˆ¿å‘µï¼Ÿæˆ‘们对香港的民主还有多少希望?台湾回归?算了吧!


那是不是让茉莉花开遍中国大地,共党下台就好了呢?


可惜中国无法为茉莉花提供土壤!


现在不同于89年了,现在中国人的日子的确好起来了,对于相当一部分人(甚至是绝大多数),生活质量不止提高了2倍3倍!当你手里有4、5套房子,有几百万存款,还有几百万在股市里的时候,你会上街游行吗?当大伙儿都在把子女送到牛津哈佛时,你会让你的孩子去"闹事"å—?你会为了那个不管吃不管穿的"民主"ç‰ºç‰²çœ¼å‰çš„一点点利益吗?


中国的文化到底是十分功利的,我们只注重眼前的利益,精神的自由只是点缀,何况几千年的儒家学说早让我们变得循规蹈矩,"君臣忠孝"æˆäº†é“德规范。


那人民不是痛恨腐败贪污吗?


这话说只对了一半。人民痛恨的其实不是贪污,而是贪官,因为他们自己没有机会做贪官。试想,如果你的父亲,你的兄弟,你的儿子或是你自己大权在握,你,你,还有你,包括我自己,不也昂首挺胸地加入腐败的行列吗?


所以说,中国的腐败是有着广泛的群众基础的。当官的腐败不必说,小老百姓或多或少都是腐败大军中的一员。百姓并不拒绝贪污,只要机会一来,谁都比别人跑得快。如果有"清官"ï¼Œé‚£ä¹Ÿåªæ˜¯éš”着十万八千里之外的人喜欢他,清官周围的人,包括家人都对他恨铁不成钢!


哪一个骂贪官的老百姓不是在单位里分红包,公款大吃大喝,领取上万元一件的"工作服"çš„时候兴高彩烈,欢欣鼓舞的呢?!


这就是中国的现实!


最近,有一首农民自编自演的歌曲走红了,歌名叫:《十谢共产党》


  一谢共产党,翻身把你想,以前我们做牛马,现在人人把家当;


  二谢共产党,吃饭把你想,以前忍饥又挨饿,现在温饱奔小康;


  三谢共产党,穿衣把你想,以前穿的蓑草衣,现在毛料新时装;


  四谢共产党,住房把你想,以前住的茅草屋,现在砖瓦新楼房;


  五谢共产党,走路把你想,以前走的羊肠道,现在道路宽又广;


  六谢共产党,照明把你想,以前照的桐油灯,现在电灯亮堂堂;


  七谢共产党,上学把你想,以前一堆大老粗,现在两基一扫光;


  八谢共产党,看病把你想,以前有病无钱医,现在医药能报账;


  九谢共产党,致富把你想,以前种粮要上税,现在免税还补偿;


十谢共产党,养老把你想,以前抚儿来防老,现在丢心政府养,党的恩情永不忘,誓把忠心献给党,紧紧跟着党中央,幸福日子万年长!





我毫不怀疑,当你看到演出者发自内心的欢愉时,你会感到这真正是农民兄弟的心声。中国有多少农民人口?80%不止啊!


岂止农民们过上了好日子对共产党感恩戴德?大批的城市小市民们呢?在钞票与民主之间对于中国人来说一点都不难取舍,更不用说抛头颅洒热血了。"共产党受到中国人民的拥戴"ä¸æ˜¯ä¸€å¥å¿½æ‚ ã€‚


不管是谁(白猫黑猫),只要让我过上舒坦日子(哪怕我自己腐败,你和我一起腐败),我就感谢谁! 


"知识分子精英"ä»¬çœ‹ä¸åˆ°è¿™ä¸€ç‚¹ç»ˆç©¶æ˜¯æ–‡äººæ”¿æ²»ï¼Œæ¢¦ä¸­è¯´ç—´ã€‚


试想,即使中国有了民主制度,只要某一届政府干得还不错,即使到了换届,老百姓也会像挽留青天大老爷那样,用上访北京的干劲,下跪叩头:老九你不能走啊!


即使有了民主制度,有了在野反对党,中国的反对党不会起到监督作用,而是和执政党狼狈为奸,"互惠互利"ï¼Œä»Šå¤©ä½ ç»™æˆ‘一条生路,明天你坐庄我就也放你一马!这就是我们的文化,整个一江湖黑社会!


只要细心观察一下历史,中国当今的险恶社会环境决不仅仅是某一个政党和政权特有的"专利"ï¼Œæ¯å½“新朝换旧符,最终是换汤不换药,甚至每况愈下。中国的历史永远是一个周而复始的过程。因此,推翻一个政权和政党并不能让中国真正走向文明。


中国的前途在哪里?总体而言,我是比较悲观的,就目前看,我还看不到中国有任何一个团体和个人能够取代共产党,但这不等于继续让共产党高高在上鱼肉大众。 


革命,尤其是暴力革命是共产党的拿手戏,学生闹事,也是共产党起家的法宝,那些套路"老革命"ä»¬éƒ½äº†å¦‚指掌。"茉莉花"é©å‘½èƒ½åœ¨ä¸­å›½å®žçŽ°å—?89年的教训已经足以说明了。


所以,中国需要的不是"茉莉花"é©å‘½ï¼Œè€Œæ˜¯"文化大革命"ï¼


对,真正的文化大革命,不是66å¹´çš„"大革文化命"ï¼Œè¿™ä¸ª"文化大革命"æ˜¯å¦‚同宗教改革,文艺复兴那样开启民智,萌发现代文明,解放思想,自由精神,抛弃一切腐朽文化基因的真正的"文化"å¤§é©å‘½ã€‚"五四"å…¶å®žæ˜¯ä¸€ä¸ªå¥½çš„开头,可惜后来拜错了马列这个瘟神,错过了亚里斯多德、苏格拉底、卢梭、康德、黑格尔"¦"¦è¿™æ ·çš„现代文明先驱。"五四"100周年的今天,"德先生"å’Œ"赛先生"èƒ½å¦é‡çŽ°å…‰å½©å‘¢ï¼Ÿ


我们不需要造反派头头式的"民运领袖"ï¼Œæˆ‘们需要一个领路人,可谁是中国的马丁·路德? 至少中国需要一个甘地,用非暴力不合作的方式来监督制约政府,并让中国人明白,美好的生活不仅仅是"砖瓦新楼房,电灯亮堂堂"ï¼Œæ°‘主的精神,思想的自由和平等的意识是现代文明不可缺少的一部分,否则,一个动不动就下跪叩头的民族走到哪里都不能真正抬起头来。


路要一步步走,那种人手一票的民主看来我们还享受不起(海外的X籍华人有多少积极参与选举投票了?),至少唱"十谢共产党"çš„农民兄弟享受不起,我看推翻了独裁的伊拉克、埃及、利比亚人民也享受不起。在这些地方,"民主"å¹¶ä¸ç­‰åŒç¾Žå¥½çš„生活,只不过是在独裁专制消失的短暂时期内,人民可以尽情地欢呼发泄一下罢了。


"民主"ä¹Ÿæœ‰ä¸€ä¸ªå‘展的过程,民主的"初级阶段"åº”该是让人民享受基本的权利和自由:说话的权利、表达思想的权利、新闻自由、上网看贴发帖的自由、不用翻墙的自由、有冤屈可以依法伸张而不是自焚的自由!


至于有"一小撮"æ€æƒ³å—到西方侵蚀的中国人需要更多的民主,那他们是否也有享受这种民主的权利?


邓小平曾提出:让一部分人先富起来,今天我要大声疾呼:让一部分人先民主起来!


何所惧?
well, guy,

FRANCIS FUKNYAMA once wrote an famous book "the end of the history". He thought that "free market+democracy" would be the end of evlution of humankind society and defeat any other politcial system/mod.


and obvioulsy, it is also the precondition of your idea and the above long article,isn't it?

but,guy, does such a precondition exist? can you assue that "democracy+free market" is the end of history?
 

Ray

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well, guy,

FRANCIS FUKNYAMA once wrote an famous book "the end of the history". He thought that "free market+democracy" would be the end of evlution of humankind society and defeat any other politcial system/mod.


and obvioulsy, it is also the precondition of your idea and the above long article,isn't it?

but,guy, does such a precondition exist? can you assue that "democracy+free market" is the end of history?
Apparently, you have a dislike for long articles since that is your favourite refrain.

Is it because it becomes too difficult to understand as you translate it in your language to understand? of that is not so, one wonders why.

I am asking you since I am a Moderator on this Forum and would like to assist you by sending out an Advisory for all to adhere to when engaging you in debate.

Would the same in two to three succeeding posts help?
 

JustForLaughs

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Ha - a bunch of Britishers discussing the value of India's freedom? Get out of here!

Indians themselves have had experience of the power of religion and faith, unlike the God-less Chinese. It is that power that has pulled India through the atrocities of the Mughal and British raj - we don't need the Geographical Society in London to try and tell us that we have gone wrong and an authoritarian government under the Queen was the best way for India to move forward!

I wouldn't trade away our faith for a doubling of our GDP, and I am sure many of my brothers here would agree the same!
that wasnt an accurate description of that debate but w/e. i actually dont care about it either. but there really isnt another instance i can post that article. i dont make threads, even i did this wouldnt be a worthy story.

religion have nothing to do with GDP but ok, nice to know.
 

pmaitra

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Ha - a bunch of Britishers discussing the value of India's freedom? Get out of here!

Indians themselves have had experience of the power of religion and faith, unlike the God-less Chinese. It is that power that has pulled India through the atrocities of the Mughal and British raj - we don't need the Geographical Society in London to try and tell us that we have gone wrong and an authoritarian government under the Queen was the best way for India to move forward!

I wouldn't trade away our faith for a doubling of our GDP, and I am sure many of my brothers here would agree the same!
Brother, the word faith can have many connotations. One can have faith in democracy. One can have faith in capitalism. One can have faith in communism. One can have faith in free market. One can have faith in plutocracy. One can have faith in parliamentary democracy, but not in presidential democracy or vice-versa. If by faith you meant something like what I just mentioned, then yes, I agree. However, I would second what JustForLaughs said (below) if you meant to say faith as in religion.

that wasnt an accurate description of that debate but w/e. i actually dont care about it either. but there really isnt another instance i can post that article. i dont make threads, even i did this wouldnt be a worthy story.

religion have nothing to do with GDP but ok, nice to know.
 
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pmaitra

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I have been debating with members from PRC over the past couple of days and trying to argue in favour of a multi-party democracy and freedom of press/speech. I have been debating about the problems with authoritarianism. Yet, I must admit that, after seeing pictures and hearing about the deaths in Libya, I definitely don't want another popular uprising in PRC to result in yet another mass murder like Tienanmen Square. I fear, if this happens, this time, it will happen across hundreds of cities and towns.

There is a peaceful way, at least relatively peaceful, and that is, to wait for a person like Mikhail Gorbachev to come to power in PRC. Gorbachev's actions were disastrous and foolish but at least his objectives were not evil.
 

Ray

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To me it does not matter what political philosophy China follows.

It is for the Chinese to decide.

My contention is that there should be grounds without fear or favour for the Chinese people to express their views freely and they be even allowed to criticise govt policies which seriously affect the people.

It is obvious that without an Opposition, there can be no constructive projection of the opposite view for debate. Without free debate and without the fear of arrest or repression, there can be no progress for then it would be constricted to only the views of those who rule with arbitrary and absolute power pretending to have the same Infallibility as the Pope.
 

nimo_cn

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You are completely misreading me.


Okay this was a joke as I said already and a misread one. So don't frown over it.


What makes you think that. Duh ... again, you've started discussing my joke as the core matter itself.
What kind of a debate is this - all Chinese members on this forum are college graduates or not .. all Indians members have graduated from colleges or not.
Who is to know all this? Except of course people like you and me saying that same - "I BELIEVE ALL THE ******* MEMBERS ....."

I presumed that all the Chinese members in this forum are having or have had college education because I know most Chinese will not be able post here in English without possessing that high education. If you don't believe me, be free to do a survey on the level of education received by the Chinese member.

I was taking your joke seriously because I am tired of people teasing about Chinese ability of independent thinking.

No. Never. No sane soul of 21st century wants chaos in China but sad to know that what happened in Egypt means only chaos to you.
It was the awakening of democracy in Egypt. The people of Egypt chose to do so. Democracy doesn't fit in a country overnight, so yes it will take its time. Till that time if you call this change a chaos then fine - Choas it is.
Regards,
Virendra
Virendra, I would never understand why China needs a radical revolution like what is happenning in Egypt and Libya. Maybe that is something will be appreciated by Indians, but I am sure such revolution will only bring disasters into China and Chinese people.

I have no problems with people singing praises for what is going on in Egypt, but I do have problems with people suggesting such a revolution in China. Let the Chinese decide what they want, you Indians decide what you want, then we will have a peaceful forum.
 

pmaitra

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I have no problems with people singing praises for what is going on in Egypt, but I do have problems with people suggesting such a revolution in China. Let the Chinese decide what they want, you Indians decide what you want, then we will have a peaceful forum.
That is exactly what I want. Let the people of PRC and not CCP decide what they want to do. Let them decide freely without the fear of ending up like Liu Xiaobo.

Do you agree with me? Yes or No? Please, don't beat around the bush now.
 

nimo_cn

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Really?

A touch of the usual Han arrogance?

The world revolves around the Middle Kingdom?

And all but the Han are 'barbarians'?

Come, come, do not overestimate yourself!

The Chinese posters are an impressive crowd: the Have's and Have-more's. They call themselves the elites. We Indians call them our base.

Arrogance diminishes Wisdom!

I might as well remind you that The truest characters of ignorance are vanity, and pride and arrogance!
My arrogance? LOL!

Ray, when you are talking about arrogance, it is like Americans talking about hypocrisy. My assertion over the education received by Chinese members may sound unpleasant or even immodest to you, but at least I was stating a fact.

To say the least, I don't preach Indians on what they should do about their country and society; I do not accuse Indians of being intimidated, indoctrined, or brainwashed if I fail to convince them to accept my ideas; I don't constantly analyze the mentality of Indians like a shrink to prove my theories about India ( but I have to confess I have done that once in a while).

You are right, Arrogance diminishes Wisdom!
 

Ray

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It is not that the Indians want a revolution in China.

Neither are Indians ecstatic with the revolutions taking place in the Middle East.

Yet, Indians and people around the world are not too unhappy that it is taking place.

It is not that they dislike the people of the Middle East, it is just that the world feels that people all over the world should be free to be allowed to have an opinion and express it freely without worrying of consequences of an Absolute authority, be it a Dictatorship, a Sheikdom, a Totalitarian regime or a quasi democracy as in Pakistan.

For instance, there is an incorrect view that the world is against Islam. Not at all. It is against fundamentalists. Why? Because they want to impose their philosophy on the world through every means including terrorism.

The human being was born free and so he should live and die free and not be dictated at every step of his life.

That is what most Indians and the world believes in.
 

pmaitra

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To say the least, I don't preach Indians on what they should do about their country and society; I do not accuse Indians of being intimidated, indoctrined, or brainwashed if I fail to convince them to accept my ideas; I don't constantly analyze the mentality of Indians like a shrink to prove my theories about India ( but I have to confess I have done that once in a while).
Nimo, from where did you get the impression that we Indians want to dictate terms at the Chinese about how PRC should be run? All I have been trying to convey is that it is the people of PRC (not India) who should decide how PRC should be run. Period. I have no problem if CCP rules PRC. All I want is that CCP should be elected to power by the people of PRC. How difficult is this for you to understand? I would explain this to you in Mandarin or Cantonese if I knew these languages [sigh].
 
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Ray

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My arrogance? LOL!

Ray, when you are talking about arrogance, it is like Americans talking about hypocrisy. My assertion over the education received by Chinese members may sound unpleasant or even immodest to you, but at least I was stating a fact.

To say the least, I don't preach Indians on what they should do about their country and society; I do not accuse Indians of being intimidated, indoctrined, or brainwashed if I fail to convince them to accept my ideas; I don't constantly analyze the mentality of Indians like a shrink to prove my theories about India ( but I have to confess I have done that once in a while).

You are right, Arrogance diminishes Wisdom!
You are stating a fact or an loose sweeping opinion?

The posters here are less qualified that you?

If that is not arrogance, then what is?

What you write is not unpleasant at all. How can the ridiculous be unpleasant? It provides comic relief!!

No one is preaching to the Chinese. It is a discussion and debate and most Indians are producing links and facts. While you all are giving opinions and CCP dogma and propaganda and on top of that without links!!

In the early 1960s, and during the first phase of the Cultural Revolution, the PLA played a major role in the popularization of the Quotations. According to Lin, "Everything that Mao Zedong says is the truth; every statement he utters is worth 10,000 sentences." The more wide-spread the study of the book, the more devastating the effects that were ascribed to it. In 1960, Mao Thought was seen as an arrow aimed at the target of revolution; by 1965, the Quotations were seen as a mighty "ideological weapon" in the struggle against imperialism, revisionism and dogmatism. One year later, Mao Thought had grown into a "spiritual atom bomb" of infinite power.
http://chineseposters.net/themes/mao-quotations.php

The above is so childish and ridiculous, but of course, to the Chinese then and maybe even now, "Everything that Mao Zedong says is the truth; every statement he utters is worth 10,000 sentences". I am sure you won't agree that this type of propaganda (and you all still spew the same type) is total unmitigated rubbish and drivel.

And if we point that out, you claim that to be preaching!!
 

Yan Luo Wang

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Nimo, from where did you get the impression that we Indians want to dictate terms at the Chinese about how PRC should be run? All I have been trying to convey is that it is the people of PRC (not India) who should decide how PRC should be run. Period. I have no problem if CCP rules PRC. All I want is that CCP should be elected to power by the people of PRC. How difficult is this for you to understand? I would explain this to you in Mandarin or Cantonese if I knew these languages [sigh].
In an ideal world, sure.

However, we have what we have. Personally I am quite happy with the CPC, though I'm sure that opinions vary.

If the CPC starts to rule poorly, then maybe they will lose the "right to rule" in the eyes of the people. But I don't think that will happen for a very long time. Just my opinion.
 
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