China's prison slaves: A 21st century evil!!

[Ray]

You can sure call them slave labor. They got pay way below minimum wages, in some case, prison may took all the shares and decide not to give any, that is perfectly possible. Yet, that is what criminals deserve. Of course there is abuse, what do you expect from a prison to be in China?

I am not saying that they are slaves.

Some may call them slaves as it is being said in the headlines.

How the Chinese prisoners are paid for their labour is a matter for China and not for any other. That is what I feel.

And as for who is 'innocent' and who is a 'criminal', it all depends on that country's legal system. It need not be same as in other countries, though some international laws may have to be conformed to so that it is on even keel.

Let be clear on this matter, making prisoners work is good in my opinion, but putting innocent man into prison is not.

Despite the total GDP, China is still a poor country, GDP per capital rank among the lowest in the world "thanks" to Mao. According to CIA World Factbook, Chinese GDP(official exchange rate) is $5.878 trillion, and China has a population of 1,336,718,015 (July 2011 est.). A simple calculation would put Chinese GDP per capital at $4397.3373. What a impoverished nation, with so many corrupted "civil servant" taking away billions of dollar every day from its citizens, with so many perfectly functioning road being rebuild every few month for the benefit of the few, with so many people struggling to buy a house where they can call "home", people have little or no sympathy for those criminals in prison. Of course, if we can, we want to put the corrupted official into Just trial, but that is simply impossible.

Maybe by US standards, China may be poor. But by the standards of many other countries of the world, China is rich.

I would rather look at PPP than GDP to evaluate public satisfaction index. From what I see from the posts of the Chinese posters, 100% of Chinese are happy, well paid, well fed, and all the health needs are looked after. What more does a person need.

In so far as having a house, it need not be a palace. If it is sufficient to house the family in relative comfort, I presume that it should do. It is just that human beings are never satisfied!

But you see, there is a bright side, economy is improving, and our living standard is improving every year, that is why CCP still exist. But this may not work forever, people may eventually take the matter into their own hand and torn down the regime with their own hand. Your life can improve economically, but without dignity. Your wife and daughter can be raped by sons of government officials, and there will not be a trial. Can you still remain silent? Can you?

I presume given the manner in which the CCP functions, they will be around the Chinese scene for long. As it is, from the Chinese posters here, I find that they are not happy with the concept of democracy. Now, if that is the majority opinion, why should the CCP be toppled? The Chinese people adore them.

I don't think the Govt officials of China are congenital raving rapists.

I am sure that is an exaggeration!

Well, I am off-topic. Just for your knowledge, CCP spend more money on WEIWEN or stabilty maintaining than on military.This might sound exaggerating, but it is true. WEIWEN spending is at least more than the military budget Chinese Government disclosed. This is sad, that is why I believe that it is vulnerable. But again, as long as life is improving, thing can hardly go wrong for CCP, but you never know.

What is WEIWEN?

PS: I honestly think Falungong is a cult, for their classic is full of contradiction and how Falungong profited from its follower. But that is just my opinion, you can have yours. You can do little research on this cult if you want to and you may find out why many people in China dislike them.

Some feel that Falungong is not a cult and is indeed a great philosophy.

While some feel it is a CIA front.

As I say each to his own interpretation!

 

[niharjhatn]

Maybe what you talk about is true, I don't know. I never been to a prison myself. However, I can imagine if I have a daughter being rape by a criminal, I will have no sympathy for the raper. People need to be punished if they committed a felony, and if depression is the punishment, then let it be. It is his choose to be become depress by committing crime against other innocent people.

Not everyone in prison is a rapist, not everyone is a murderer. That said, I agree punishment should occur - but the whole point of prison is to REFORM people. The aim is to make these criminals understand the folly of their ways and change their behaviour.

Look at how norway tackles criminals:

Halden, Norway's second largest prison, with a capacity of 252 inmates, opened on April 8. It embodies the guiding principles of the country's penal system: that repressive prisons do not work and that treating prisoners humanely boosts their chances of reintegrating into society. "When they arrive, many of them are in bad shape," Hoidal says, noting that Halden houses drug dealers, murderers and rapists, among others. "We want to build them up, give them confidence through education and work and have them leave as better people."

...

Design plays a key role in Halden's rehabilitation efforts. "The most important thing is that the prison looks as much like the outside world as possible," says Hans Henrik Hoilund, one of the prison's architects. To avoid an institutional feel, exteriors are not concrete but made of bricks, galvanized steel and larch; the buildings seem to have grown organically from the woodlands. And while there is one obvious symbol of incarceration — a 20-ft. (6 m) concrete security wall along the prison's perimeter — trees obscure it, and its top has been rounded off, Hoilund says, "so it isn't too hostile." (See the 25 crimes of the century.)

The cells rival well-appointed college dorm rooms, with their flat-screen TVs and minifridges. Designers chose long vertical windows for the rooms because they let in more sunlight. There are no bars. Every 10 to 12 cells share a living room and kitchen. With their stainless-steel countertops, wraparound sofas and birch-colored coffee tables, they resemble Ikea showrooms.

Halden's greatest asset, though, may be the strong relationship between staff and inmates. Prison guards don't carry guns — that creates unnecessary intimidation and social distance — and they routinely eat meals and play sports with the inmates. "Many of the prisoners come from bad homes, so we wanted to create a sense of family," says architect Per Hojgaard Nielsen. Half the guards are women — Hoidal believes this decreases aggression — and prisoners receive questionnaires asking how their experience in prison can be improved.

I agree this is a scenario that most countries cannot implement. However, it is the ideal we should be working towards. The current prison system is based on archaic, millenia old ideals that has not evolved with our understanding of neural networking and psychology.

Privatisation is the complete opposite of reform and is little better than forced labour.

 

[ice berg]

Not everyone in prison is a rapist, not everyone is a murderer. That said, I agree punishment should occur - but the whole point of prison is to REFORM people. The aim is to make these criminals understand the folly of their ways and change their behaviour.

Look at how norway tackles criminals:

I agree this is a scenario that most countries cannot implement. However, it is the ideal we should be working towards. The current prison system is based on archaic, millenia old ideals that has not evolved with our understanding of neural networking and psychology.

Privatisation is the complete opposite of reform and is little better than forced labour.

Prison is about two things, reform and punishment. Some country favors the first one, others favors the last one.

I am not sure Norway is a good exemplar here. 21 years for max sentence and you are out after spending 2/3 of your time. You get pay checks and hold your breath, vacation as well. Most politicians here want to keep it that way too.

Petty crimes are rare. However, the punishments are severe for white-collar crimes.

Different systems , different approches. Not justifying the Chinese prison system though.

 

[niharjhatn]

Prison is about two things, reform and punishment. Some country favors the first one, others favors the last one.

I am not sure Norway is a good exemplar here. 21 years for max sentence and you are out after spending 2/3 of your time. You get pay checks and hold your breath, vacation as well. Most politicians here want to keep it that way too.

Petty crimes are rare. However, the punishments are severe for white-collar crimes.

Different systems , different approches. Not justifying the Chinese prison system though.

Reform is the ONLY aim of prison. There is no two systems. If reform was not favoured in your country, how can you possibly feel safe after releasing the prisoners back to society? Obviously the reason you don't have whole life (i.e. till death) prison sentences is because you expect the prisoner to change behaviour after their term in prison. I argue that the current systems implemented do a far poorer job, and privitisation only exacerbates the issue.

The whole idea of privatisation and enabling prisoners for work to me raises huge ethical issues regarding conflict of interest. And Cui bono...?

 

[ice berg]

Reform is the ONLY aim of prison. There is no two systems. If reform was not favoured in your country, how can you possibly feel safe after releasing the prisoners back to society? Obviously the reason you don't have whole life (i.e. till death) prison sentences is because you expect the prisoner to change behaviour after their term in prison. I argue that the current systems implemented do a far poorer job, and privitisation only exacerbates the issue.

The whole idea of privatisation and enabling prisoners for work to me raises huge ethical issues regarding conflict of interest. And Cui bono...?

Prison is about punishment too, not just reforms. You are supposed to lock the "bad guys" away. Those who are locked inside dont have the freedom ppl enjoy in the outside. Dont pretend it is not a punishment.

Regarding ppl feel safe or not. I have heard stories of victims meeting the very person responsible for their miseries in street after a fews years. (Norway is a small country) Trust me, it was not pleasent at all. Anyway most of politicians dont want to change the current system. So here we are.

I agree the moral issues surrounding prison labours.

 

[W.G.Ewald]

 

[nimo_cn]

From what I see from the posts of the Chinese posters, 100% of Chinese are happy, well paid, well fed, and all the health needs are looked after. What more does a person need.

Well, I am only refuting this one.

I for one never said that, and I am pretty sure no one else said that, either, so please don't make things up.

Most of the time we are just correcting the misuderstandings about China, like Chinese are living in hell, but that doesn't mean we are implying 100% of Chinese are living in paradise. However, we do believe that most Chinese are having better life than their Indian counterparts, and again please don't take that as "100% of Chinese are happy, well paid, well fed, and all the health needs are looked after".

 

[Armand2REP]

Prison is about punishment too, not just reforms. You are supposed to lock the "bad guys" away. Those who are locked inside dont have the freedom ppl enjoy in the outside. Dont pretend it is not a punishment.

They are "the bad guys" for worshiping outside of a state sponsored church? Over 20% of the prison population are Christians and members of Fulan Gong who did nothing other than trying to live a spiritual life. Lord only knows how many of them are political prisoners. Why should they be punished.

Regarding ppl feel safe or not. I have heard stories of victims meeting the very person responsible for their miseries in street after a fews years. (Norway is a small country) Trust me, it was not pleasent at all. Anyway most of politicians dont want to change the current system. So here we are.

Is hard labour reforming Christians? It only looks like it fans the flames with 3 million converts a year.

I agree the moral issues surrounding prison labours.

I don't have a problem putting criminals to work but first make sure they are criminals and second, put them work to benefit society... not making profits for corrupt officials.

 

[mylegend]

I don't have a problem putting criminals to work but first make sure they are criminals and second, put them work to benefit society... not making profits for corrupt officials.

I agree with what you said. That is why I said the legal system is the one to be blame. I agree with the point people should have the freedom to worship. However, Christianity is a religion, and Falungong is a cult. Lihongzhi（founder of the movement) is a person, not a God. Have you ever seen Christian priest charging people for Sunday service? But Falungong did, they charge people whatever fee they want. This is a for profit organization, not a religion.

In Falungong official site http://www.minghui.org/, there is a column that describe all the miracles of Falungong. It simply said if you believe in Falungong deeply, all your disease will be cured, there is even stories that state a 80 years old man who got late stage lung cancer are cured just because he have faith. Yet, they do not have any basic journalism standard, the miracle often contain no time, place, and name of person. Okay, I understand, they are at risk. Anyway, read it yourself or find someone who can read Chinese. I am sure you will find out that they are a cult.

 

[Armand2REP]

What you do to FG would be like France criminalising Scientology. It is not recognised as a religion but as a cult. We don't throw its followers into labour camps to enrich the pockets of corrupt officials.

 

[Armand2REP]

I don't have a problem with chain gangs, the problem is the high suceptability of corruption with all that free labour. They still make license plates in your country but that doesn't benefit any person but the entire state expense.

 

[mylegend]

In so far as having a house, it need not be a palace. If it is sufficient to house the family in relative comfort, I presume that it should do. It is just that human beings are never satisfied!

I don't think the Govt officials of China are congenital raving rapists.
I am sure that is an exaggeration!


What is WEIWEN?

The answer for the first question is not Greed that prevent ordinary Chinese from buying house. Price of house is just outrageous, house price in Beijing(although it is the capital, it is not a high average income city) is at 22953 per sq m. While this seem fine for the average disposable personal income (DPI) of 69483rmb（2010 data（28省城镇居民实现5年人均收入翻番 天津增幅最大_资讯频道_凤凰网）, this is fine. But if you consider average new college grad start salary of 2500rmb（2009 data）(北京房租超过大学毕业生平均工资_网易新闻中心) in Beijing, young people feel hopeless.

For the second question, I can tell you from my personal experience. My family is well establish businessman in the city where I am from(I can't tell where, for the safety of my family). My mother one day toll me that there is such case she know from a friend who is a middle-high rank official in the city(not all official are bad, they may all be corrupted but the scale is different, and their personality might not be all bad) that a son of some powerful official gangbang a high-school girl, the case never went to court due to pressure, and the family made a settlement with the victim family(the victim's family have no choose, police won't take their case). The official's career is heavily damaged, but his son remain free of charges. Well, I do not know if the case is frequent, but every month, you can see news of civil-servant commiting crime like that(god know how many case remain unknown to the public), and they do not faces investigation until media disclose it because it is wide-spread around internet. There was a famous case in China, some other Chinese member here may also know. A business woman from Guizhou province was raped by a government official, she goes to the police, but was tolled that it was not a rape since the official was using a condom. Wow, I was shock by the news at the time...

For your last question, Weiwen meant maintaining stability, which include internet censorship and other way for government to intervene against incident that may threaten their rule. You can add the budget up yourself by every city,provincial, national disclosed budget...

 

[jat]

I agree. Let those criminals pay their dues. it's better than waste tons of tax payers money like here in US.

I double that. Problem I have with the this system though is the lack of fail safes. Seems like people are just picked up and put away. Also, why the secrecy?
Why hide numbers?