China will not copy Western political system: Hu

no smoking

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Yijiuliuer,

You keep bringing India into topics that discuss China to distract the debate or topic that is critical of China. This has been your behaviour/tactic all along. This is last warning to you. If you continue you will be infracted or banned as necessary
The problem is, as the biggiest democratic country in the world, india provide a very bad example for Chinese to think of what their lives would be in a democratic China. Everytime, when a pro-democratic Chinese requires an immediate demoractic reform, india is always the most powerful weapon for opposite side.
 

Ray

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Hu's 'wicked path' alert stirs row

BEIJING: As the Communist Party's National Congress entered the second day on Friday, delegates and observers began to make sense of some unexpected remarks from President Hu Jintao in his work report on the opening day. This includes his criticism of the party, his emphasis on the ballot box, and his warning about shunning the "wicked path".

"We cannot take the old road of seclusion and stagnation, nor can we take the 'wicked way' of changing our banner," Hu had said. The remark generated numerous questions on Weibo, the Chinese version of Twitter, on whether Hu, the party general secretary, was calling for change or status quo.

Observers asked if Hu's emphasis on implementing democratic systems and ushering in the ballot box to choose leaders at the provincial and municipal levels has a political motive. "Hu is trying to counter the conservatives led by former president Jiang Zemin, and use grassroots organizations to curtail their growing influence," a source said.

There are signs that Jiang has managed to play an important role and pack the Polit Bureau Standing Committee with conservative elements. Incidentally, a post on Weibo displaying pictures of a bored and yawning Jiang was removed by censors within 25 minutes of its posting on Thursday afternoon.

The President's attack on the corrupt black sheep in the party drew attention on Thursday but by Friday, party members began realizing that the president was unhappy about many other things as well. "The whole party is confronted with increasingly grave dangers of lacking in drive, incompetence, being out of touch with the people, corruption and other misconduct," he said. He asked party men to demonstrate the "moral integrity of Communists".

Hu was apparently prompted by the controversy concerning Wukun village in Guangdong last year when residents locked up the village refusing government officials to enter in protest against forcible land acquisition. The government was forced to bow to the demand of the villagers causing embarrassment to the leadership.

Hu's 'wicked path' alert stirs row - The Times of India
 

Ray

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The Chinese theory of Legalism, which is the bedrock of Chinese mindset and Han culture, does not encourage democracy and so to expect Chinese would embrace democracy would mean a total change of mindset.

Legalism

For something quite different from both Daoism and Confucianism, we now turn to a third classical Chinese social and political philosophy: *Legalism* (fajia 法家) Of the three, Legalism is usually the easiest for students from the United States to comprehend. As you will probably see in the following pages, the Legalist view of the world has much in common with contemporary U.S. society. There are also some major differences (e.g., Legalism's view of human nature versus the contemporary tendency to assume people are basically good), of course, but on the whole, the basic tenets of Legalism should be fairly easy to comprehend.

Human Nature & Psychology

Legalism starts with the premise that human nature is evil. More specifically, "evil" means that humans are by nature selfish and antisocial. They will always do what is best for themselves in the short term. Individuals will behave in a way that benefits the larger society only if they can be shown that such behavior is also in their own personal self interest. By fully understanding and using this fact, a ruler can build a powerful state. The ruler has in his hands--or should have in his hands--the full coercive force of the state. He also controls substantial wealth. He uses this coercive force and this wealth to manipulate the population of his state through positive and negative reinforcement (to use contemporary terminology). Reward behavior that benefits the state (and therefore the ruler); punish that which does not. Han Feizi, (#fuzzy image#) the great theoretician of Legalism, called punishment and reward the *two handles.* The ruler uses these two handles to control the behavior of his ministers and subjects. Han Feizi explained:

The enlightened ruler controls his ministers by means of the two handles alone. The two handles are punishment and favor. What do I mean by punishment and favor? To inflict mutilation and death on people is called punishment; to bestow honor and reward is called favor. Those who act as ministers fear the penalties and hope to profit by the rewards. Hence, if the ruler wields his punishments and favors, the ministers will fear his sternness and flock to receive his benefits.1

Today's readers of Han Feizi are often struck by certain resemblances between his ideas and those of the early sixteenth-century Italian political theorist Niccolò Machiavelli (1569-1627) or (to a lesser extent) the American behavioral psychologist B. F. Skinner (1904-1990).2 Han Feizi's understanding of human nature also bears some resemblance to the theories of behavioral psychologists.

In their youth, both Han Feizi and the Legalist Prime Minister Li Si studied under a prominent Confucian scholar. As you might have guessed, this scholar was Xunzi, the Confucian who argued that human nature is evil. Han Feizi and Li Si fully accepted this part of Xunzi's teachings. There was, however, a major difference in their views of human nature. Xunzi said that a person's original nature is evil and so it must be modified through strict training. Han Feizi and the other Legalists did not think this evil original nature could ever be trained or modified. Humans were self-serving and anti-social from the time they were born until the time they died, and any attempt to change this basic nature was futile and misguided. Instead, rulers should accept that human nature is permanently evil, embrace this fact, and use it to their advantage.

Indeed, according to Legalist theory, humans could be made to do anything at all should there be sufficient incentive. For example, according to Han Feizi:

Because the king of Yue admired valor, many of his subjects defied death; because King Ling of Qu liked slim waists, his state was full of half-starved people on diets. Because Duke Huan of Qi was jealous and loved his ladies in waiting, Shudiao castrated himself in order to be put in charge of the harem; because the duke was fond of unusual food, Yiya steamed his son's head and offered it to the duke.3

In these cases, the bizarre behavior was the result of underlings trying to impress a ruler or play up to his desires. Such examples, if they really happened, suggest that not only will people do nearly anything if there is sufficient incentive, but also that the ruler should keep his likes and dislikes a secret from his subordinates. Notice that in any case, Han Feizi's human beings are motivated by selfish desires for personal gain--"evil" in classical Chinese thinking.

Law & Government

Law (fa 法) was the mechanism by which rulers should employ the two handles to their advantage. The people exist to serve and strengthen the state, thought the Legalists. Rulers, therefore, should create a comprehensive system of laws that rewards all behavior of benefit to the state and severely punishes behavior that weakens the state. The ruler should carefully construct the laws in a way that people, particularly government ministers, have incentives to spy on their peers and associates. Furthermore, government must enforce laws with 100% certainty and no exceptions. Law and the power to enforce it, not authoritative humanity, moral authority and the like, was the key to a harmonious society and a strong state. Being only a single person, a ruler cannot personally watch over all the many affairs of state. The system of laws therefore serves to extend his own power and authority. Han Feizi explained:

Stretch the plumb line, and crooked wood can be planed straight; apply the level, and bumps and hollows can be shaved away; balance the scales, and heavy and light can be adjusted; get out the measuring jars, and discrepancies of quantity can be corrected. In the same way one should use laws to govern the state, disposing of all matters on their basis alone.4

Once established, law must be enforced without any favoritism or exceptions. There must be no consideration of extenuating circumstances. The law takes on a life of its own and its integrity takes precedence over any individual (except the ruler, the only one above the law):

The law no more makes exceptions for men of high station than the plumb line bends to accommodate a crooked place in the wood. What the law has decreed the wise men cannot dispute nor the brave man venture to contest. When faults are to be punished, the highest minister cannot escape; when good is to be rewarded, the lowest peasant must not be passed over. Hence, for correcting the faults of superiors, chastising the misdeeds of subordinates, restoring order, exposing error, checking excess, remedying evil, and unifying the standards of the people, nothing can compare to law. For putting fear into the officials, awing the people, wiping out wantonness and sloth, and preventing lies and deception, nothing can compare to penalties. If penalties are heavy, men dare not use high position to abuse the humble; if laws are clearly defined, superiors will be honored and their rights will not be invaded. If they are honored and their rights are inviolable, then the ruler will be strong and hold fast to what is essential.5

The world Han Feizi envisioned, and which the Qin dynasty attempted to put into place, was a far cry from the aristocratic culture of the early Zhou dynasty. It was also at odds with what the Confucians would have wanted. Recall that Confucius specifically opposed penalties and laws as the primary means of rectifying society. Notice that this passage suggests that personal security ("rights" in the passage above) would be one major benefit from a system of rigidly-enforced, harsh laws.

(Interestingly, similar appeals to personal security can be heard in some of the "law and order" rhetoric of contemporary politicians--both conservative and liberal. The extent to which people are willing to accept a police state in return for security against crime, terrorism, and even economic misery, is a major issue in the contemporary U.S.--albeit one that is rarely cast explicitly in these terms.)

Legalists advocated severe penalties for relatively minor offenses. The idea was that if minor offenses result in stiff punishment, people will not dare commit major ones (#interesting Chinese example# from the 1920s). Of course, the opposite can take place in real life. The laws should be clear so all can understand them. Duties and expectations (i.e., job descriptions) for government ministers should be clearly defined. Those who do not measure up to these expectations must be punished, as must those who exceed the bounds of their assigned duties:

Once in the past Marquis Zhao of Han got drunk and fell asleep. The keeper of the royal hat, seeing that the marquis was cold, laid a robe over him. When the marquis awoke, he was pleased and asked his attendants, 'Who covered me with a robe?' 'The keeper of the hat,' they replied. The marquis thereupon punished both the keeper of the royal hat and the keeper of the royal robe. He punished the keeper of the robe for failing to do his duty, and the keeper of the hat for overstepping his office. It was not that he did not dislike the cold, but he considered the trespass of one official upon the duties of another to be a greater danger than cold.6

Ministers and commoners alike should do precisely what the laws and regulations require of them, no more and no less. Each member of society must work like a cog in a giant machine. To do otherwise would be to endanger the great machine of state.

Although Legalism may sound plausible in theory, in practice, even a society like ancient China was too complex for the laws to handle. It is nearly impossible to make laws to cover all circumstances and possibilities. Legalism engenders extreme distrust and suspicion, as people are encouraged to spy on those around them. Informants would receive generous rewards. Those who know of an offense but fail to report it would be liable for severe punishment. The mistrust and suspicion thus caused can work to the ruler's advantage if he is skilled at manipulating it. In the long run, however, it tends to create divisions in society that are detrimental to the state.

Brief Excursion into Modern China: Mao & Jiang as 20th-Century Legalists

One Chinese ruler who was extremely skilled at manipulating suspicion and distrust among his subordinates, and society at large, was #Mao Zedong,# who was in power from 1949 until his death in 1976. He was an admirer of the "First Emperor" of the Qin dynasty, whom Mao regarded as a great progressive state-builder. In similar fashion, Mao, too, was the "first emperor" of a new Communist China. Consciously or otherwise, he employed many classic Legalist techniques in governing, and he was particularly adept at keeping the preponderance of power in his own hands. Even now, history books from China usually praise the ideas of Han Feizi and the accomplishments of the first Qin emperor: "Han Fei[zi]'s opposition to conservatism was clear-cut and his advocacy of reform positive. Representing the interests of the feudal landlord class, he was laying the ideological foundation for the advent of feudal aristocracy."7 As you may know, basic Marxist historiography holds that human societies go through four inevitable states: 1) slave-owning society; 2) feudal society; 3) capitalist society; 4) socialist society. The author of this passage regards Han Feizi and the Legalists as aiding progress by helping move from the first to the second stage. Were he brought back to life, Han Feizi might be surprised to see his ideas poured into a Marxist mold.

Praise for the Legalists helped Mao justify his own heavy reliance on coercive power to transform society. For example, part of a 1949 address, "On the People's Democratic Dictatorship," reads:

'Don't you want to abolish state power?' Yes, we do, but not right now; we cannot do it yet. Why? Because imperialism still exists, because domestic reaction still exists, because classes still exist in our country. Our present task is to strengthen the people's state apparatus--mainly the people's army, the people's police and the people's courts--in order to consolidate national defense and protect the people's interests.8

And the "people's" army, police and courts are still as busy as ever keeping order in China. Theoretical Marxist fantasies to the contrary notwithstanding, the state is not about to wither any time soon, in China or anywhere else. To be sure, there were major differences between the theory and practice of government in Mao's China and in the Legalist statecraft of ancient China. Still, one cannot fully understand twentieth-century China without some understanding of the Legalist legacy that continues to exert a strong influence.

In Taiwan, official propaganda frequently points out that in contrast to Mao's following the Legalist path, #Jiang Jieshi# 蔣介石 (better known in the U.S. as Chang Kai-shek), who ruled Taiwan from 1949 until his death in 1975, followed the way of Confucius. Such statements are basically correct regarding Mao, but they are not accurate regarding Jiang. It is true that unlike Mao, Jiang, an admirer of Hitler in the 1930s, did not go out of his way to praise the Legalists. And he also paid lip service to the Confucian tradition when he thought that doing so would enhance his image. But, in practice, Jiang's rule was based solely on *coercive force,* the preponderance of which he kept in his own hands.

Although enemies, Jiang and Mao were alike in that both gave the highest priority to their personal quest for power, regardless of how many millions of innocent people perished in the process. Jiang's regime on the mainland (late 1920s-1949) was corrupt and brutal, and often resembling an #organized crime syndicate# more than a government in the usual sense of the term. If Jiang could be called a follower of the "Confucian Way," so too could virtually anyone. Jiang was a Legalist who gave unconvincing lip service to China's Confucian legacy; Mao was a Legalist who frankly acknowledged his admiration for Han Feizi and the First Qin Emperor.

There is a broader point here beyond examining the ruling styles of Jiang and Mao. Notice how useful the ancient past can be for *political manipulation in the present.* Praising or criticizing Confucius, or the First Emperor, was not a purely scholarly act without political content in the China or Taiwan of recent decades (including the present day). And this point applies to most other countries as well. In the modern world, debates over "correct" interpretations of history have significance that goes well beyond the academic disputes of scholars.

Chapter Five: Legalism
 
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Ray

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In Chinese history, Legalism (Chinese: 法家; literally "School of Law"; pinyin: fă jiā) was one of the main philosophic currents during the Warring States Period, although the term itself was invented in the Han Dynasty and thus does not refer to an organized 'school' of thought. Legalism was a utilitarian political philosophy that did not address higher questions like the nature and purpose of life.[1] The school's most famous proponent and contributor Han Fei Zi (韓非子) believed that a ruler should use the following three tools to govern his subjects:

Fa (Chinese: 法; pinyin: fǎ; literally "law or principle"): The law code must be clearly written and made public. All people under the ruler were equal before the law. Laws should reward those who obey them and punish accordingly those who dare to break them. Thus it is guaranteed that actions taken are systematically predictable. In addition, the system of law ran the state, not the ruler, a statement of rule of law. If the law is successfully enforced, even a weak ruler will be strong.

Shu (Chinese: 術; pinyin: shù; literally "method, tactic or art"): Special tactics and "secrets" are to be employed by the ruler to make sure others don't take over control of the state. Especially important is that no one can fathom the ruler's motivations, and thus no one can know which behaviour might help them get ahead, other than following the 法, or laws.

Shi (Chinese: 勢; pinyin: shì; literally "legitimacy, power or charisma"): It is the position of the ruler, not the ruler himself or herself, that holds the power. Therefore, analysis of the trends, the context, and the facts are essential for a real ruler.

Wiki
 

rockdog

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The problem is, as the biggiest democratic country in the world, india provide a very bad example for Chinese to think of what their lives would be in a democratic China. Everytime, when a pro-democratic Chinese requires an immediate demoractic reform, india is always the most powerful weapon for opposite side.
Sad but true. If checking India's Per GDP, human being development index, common people's living standard, this kind of democracy is not China wants.

The consensus already existed in most Chinese people: China must take the democracy as final destination.

But the debate is: HOW?

I think Chinese government and lots of people tend to walk the typical East Asia ways: step by step from dictatorship to democratic, just like:

Taiwan (KMT ruling > Free election)
S.Korea (Military regime > Free election)
Japan (US occupation > Democratic )

Above nations and regions are now with Per GDP over $USD15000, and why not to study them.

On contrast, why need to following a bad sample, even it have some population as China, even it labelled as Democracy 65 years ago...
 

GromHellscream

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Study what?

Body fights in Congress, or almost every president suffered a unnatrual death just after he retired, or change PM as fast as you change your underware?

You want make our country as a joke like that?
 

Ray

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Sad but true. If checking India's Per GDP, human being development index, common people's living standard, this kind of democracy is not China wants.

The consensus already existed in most Chinese people: China must take the democracy as final destination.

But the debate is: HOW?

I think Chinese government and lots of people tend to walk the typical East Asia ways: step by step from dictatorship to democratic, just like:

Taiwan (KMT ruling > Free election)
S.Korea (Military regime > Free election)
Japan (US occupation > Democratic )


Above nations and regions are now with Per GDP over $USD15000, and why not to study them.

On contrast, why need to following a bad sample, even it have some population as China, even it labelled as Democracy 65 years ago...
It would be good of you check the democratic matrices of the Nations mentioned before you ascribe fanciful transitions.

The consensus already existed in most Chinese people: China must take the democracy as final destination.
Could you indicate where and when such a consensus was arrived at?
 
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Ray

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Study what?

Body fights in Congress, or almost every president suffered a unnatrual death just after he retired, or change PM as fast as you change your underware?

You want make our country as a joke like that?
See the bold text.

Like when every President met at unnatural death in office or retired?

Based on flights of fancy on gossamer wings?

In democracy, you do change Heads of Govt as per the stipulated term and it is done by the WILL and DESIRE of the people.

That is what is called Freedom.

Many chained populations of the world who rise and sleep at the dictates of their so called Govt will not understand and so that is forgivable.

Good to know that some people change underwear since that was not known to happen in country's where the Govt orders them to do so and gives the routine and timing.
 

GromHellscream

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See the bold text.

Like when every President met at unnatural death in office or retired?

Based on flights of fancy on gossamer wings?

In democracy, you do change Heads of Govt as per the stipulated term and it is done by the WILL and DESIRE of the people.

That is what is called Freedom.

Many chained populations of the world who rise and sleep at the dictates of their so called Govt will not understand and so that is forgivable.

Good to know that some people change underwear since that was not known to happen in country's where the Govt orders them to do so and gives the routine and timing.
Good to know you keep your level as usual.
 

rockdog

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It would be good of you check the democratic matrices of the Nations mentioned before you ascribe fanciful transitions.
I am little afraid of talking about these kind thing with you, since every time you would post something from wiki to show you how much you know about East Asia and China.

Like last time, i just mentioned one word "India Civil Soldier", you gave me a long article about China's military system...

Sorry i am scary about this kind of discussion...


Could you indicate where and when such a consensus was arrived at?
To be frank, i don't know WHEN, but i am more interested in discussing HOW.

As i wrote previous, so far some East Asia nations and regions already showed that, the democracy would happen along with social and economic development,
Per GDP beyond USD10,000-15,000 would be a good stage, since by then the reform would cost less instability.

On contrast, so far the biggest nation, also a biggest democratic nation from subcontinent, its lots of social development is even lower than Africa continent.


Lots of Chinese Maoist (i hate Maoist i have to say) just use this sample to shit those democratic activist as: "you like democracy now? Go and enjoy the life in India". --- Sorry, this is very typical conversation happened in China's forum when people debating whether we need a radical democratic system now.

In fact, i like democracy, and i hate communism, but i think India's current system really gave the bad name to democracy...
 

DaTang

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I am little afraid of talking about these kind thing with you, since every time you would post something from wiki to show you how much you know about East Asia and China.

Like last time, i just mentioned one word "India Civil Soldier", you gave me a long article about China's military system...

Sorry i am scary about this kind of discussion...




To be frank, i don't know WHEN, but i am more interested in discussing HOW.

As i wrote previous, so far some East Asia nations and regions already showed that, the democracy would happen along with social and economic development,
Per GDP beyond USD10,000-15,000 would be a good stage, since by then the reform would cost less instability.

On contrast, so far the biggest nation, also a biggest democratic nation from subcontinent, its lots of social development is even lower than Africa continent.


Lots of Chinese Maoist (i hate Maoist i have to say) just use this sample to shit those democratic activist as: "you like democracy now? Go and enjoy the life in India". --- Sorry, this is very typical conversation happened in China's forum when people debating whether we need a radical democratic system now.

In fact, i like democracy, and i hate communism, but i think India's current system really gave the bad name to democracy...
India has long way to go before it really enters the realm of so called Democracy, actually the modern concept of democracy is Plutocracy by nature,
Once you had money, you can share your rights of decision later. India, ironically, does not have money, their top layers of leadership are either "Italian" as they claimed by themselves, or quota-entitled "I don't want to say who". Philippines were among the very first democratic countries in Asia, it is still Philippines,India in many ways, is a large scale of Philippines, with this said, I don't think Maoists ( do we really have any Maoists in China or just unhappy non-xianfus?) are fair to ask pro-democratic people to go live in India they should direct them to Philippines first.
 

mikhail

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India has long way to go before it really enters the realm of so called Democracy, actually the modern concept of democracy is Plutocracy by nature,
Once you had money, you can share your rights of decision later. India, ironically, does not have money, their top layers of leadership are either "Italian" as they claimed by themselves, or quota-entitled "I don't want to say who". Philippines were among the very first democratic countries in Asia, it is still Philippines,India in many ways, is a large scale of Philippines, with this said, I don't think Maoists ( do we really have any Maoists in China or just unhappy non-xianfus?) are fair to ask pro-democratic people to go live in India they should direct them to Philippines first.
look who's criticizing the Indian Democracy:rofl:!first go an establish some rudiment democratic rights in chin and then come and critize about our democratic system!and who told you that India doesn't have money,ohh wait it must be the great :panda: hu jintao himself!we are a 2 trillion dollar democracy and our economy will son get doubled by 2020!you chinis are becoming so arrogant because your country suddenly has become rich that you don't mind insulting other countries just for fun!but don't forget that the wheel of economy is very uncertain,today you have become the 2nd largest economy and we are at no.7 but who can tell that we won't become the 2nd largest economy in the next 15 years!so it's very dangerous to take pride on your economic status and insulting the weaker ones as we all know that your bad karmawill eventually haunt you down asthey say that karma is a bi**ch:taunt1:!
 

Tshering22

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I admire Chinese candidness in their desire to remain at what suits them the best.

Authoritarian rule has brought results in China while democracy though bringing results in India, is very, very slow and misused. It is appreciable that their leaders come out in the open and say rather than the mafia management our country has in the name of democracy.

They have 10 top dictators while we have 543 dictators here in India.
 

DaTang

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look who's criticizing the Indian Democracy:rofl:!first go an establish some rudiment democratic rights in chin and then come and critize about our democratic system!and who told you that India doesn't have money,ohh wait it must be the great :panda: hu jintao himself!we are a 2 trillion dollar democracy and our economy will son get doubled by 2020!you chinis are becoming so arrogant because your country suddenly has become rich that you don't mind insulting other countries just for fun!but don't forget that the wheel of economy is very uncertain,today you have become the 2nd largest economy and we are at no.7 but who can tell that we won't become the 2nd largest economy in the next 15 years!so it's very dangerous to take pride on your economic status and insulting the weaker ones as we all know that your bad karmawill eventually haunt you down asthey say that karma is a bi**ch:taunt1:!
Before you really industrialize your country, you just can't be rich (rich is a misconception here though, I refer a more precise term: developed), any country can be rich or have lots of cash, but not all of them can be developed. If you sits on an oil lake, you can be rich, but you are not a developed country.

I see no problem of you being democratic, but problem is are you really democratic or just chaotic? I am not saying China is developed, but it is being industrialized,
our urban population just surpassed our rural population last year, still long way to go. you may go check Indian's number and rethink about this issue.
 

Ray

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Good to know you keep your level as usual.
Bravo!

What a discovery!

I am little afraid of talking about these kind thing with you, since every time you would post something from wiki to show you how much you know about East Asia and China.
It is just that if I quote from tomes, you would be the standard doubting Thomas that you all are since those tomes would not be available to you, nor do you show any inclination to scholarship pursuits.

So Wiki comes handy since it also has references to back up the contentions.



Like last time, i just mentioned one word "India Civil Soldier", you gave me a long article about China's military system...

Sorry i am scary about this kind of discussion...
Anything wrong in educating the ones who are short on knowledge on the issue?




To be frank, i don't know WHEN, but i am more interested in discussing HOW.
That When will never come and so why waste time to search for the How. It is like Searching for the Lost Chord.

But then, since you know the HOW could you educate us?

As i wrote previous, so far some East Asia nations and regions already showed that, the democracy would happen along with social and economic development,
Per GDP beyond USD10,000-15,000 would be a good stage, since by then the reform would cost less instability.

On contrast, so far the biggest nation, also a biggest democratic nation from subcontinent, its lots of social development is even lower than Africa continent.
The contention that you tried to fib your way through about the nations you quoted as having moved to democracy from military dictatorship or US Occupation and did well is indicative of how you are all so adept in changing the history and reality just to prove what you say is right, more so, when people are not ready to research and accept what is written as the Gospel. I merely indicated that what you wrote was figments of a fertile and fevered imagination with a high degree of hallucination.


Lots of Chinese Maoist (i hate Maoist i have to say) just use this sample to shit those democratic activist as: "you like democracy now? Go and enjoy the life in India". --- Sorry, this is very typical conversation happened in China's forum when people debating whether we need a radical democratic system now.

In fact, i like democracy, and i hate communism, but i think India's current system really gave the bad name to democracy...
There is nothing wrong with Maoists in China. If China is comfortable with the Mao men, so be it since outside forces cannot change the situation.

Democracy is not the panacea of all the ills of the world. It is never perfect and it has a whole lot of infirmities. The only reason that it survives inspite of infirmities is that democracy does not constrict the individual's thought, act or deed within the limits of the law enacted by the people themselves. The Govt cannot foist their iron grip on the people and frogmarch them to accept what the Govt says.
 

Ray

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India has long way to go before it really enters the realm of so called Democracy, actually the modern concept of democracy is Plutocracy by nature,
Once you had money, you can share your rights of decision later. India, ironically, does not have money, their top layers of leadership are either "Italian" as they claimed by themselves, or quota-entitled "I don't want to say who". Philippines were among the very first democratic countries in Asia, it is still Philippines,India in many ways, is a large scale of Philippines, with this said, I don't think Maoists ( do we really have any Maoists in China or just unhappy non-xianfus?) are fair to ask pro-democratic people to go live in India they should direct them to Philippines first.
Long way from Democracy?

Could you amplify as to what is your understanding of democracy and how India is a long way from it?

Servitude: "a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life"

Democracy: "a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections"

Plutocracy: government by the wealthy

Unlike systems such as democracy or anarchism, plutocracy is not rooted in an established political philosophy.
 

Ray

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Before you really industrialize your country, you just can't be rich (rich is a misconception here though, I refer a more precise term: developed), any country can be rich or have lots of cash, but not all of them can be developed. If you sits on an oil lake, you can be rich, but you are not a developed country.

I see no problem of you being democratic, but problem is are you really democratic or just chaotic? I am not saying China is developed, but it is being industrialized,
our urban population just surpassed our rural population last year, still long way to go. you may go check Indian's number and rethink about this issue.
Oh yes, we have to learn of industrialisation from China. The Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution way, right that led to famines and death and destruction?

Then good old Deng, who was an industrialist's son in law, changed it to follow his fathe in lawr's footsteps. Lest you forget, Deng's third wife was Zhuo Lin, the daughter of an industrialist in Yunnan Province. In short, he was a turncoat who ridiculed the Communist and Mao's philosophy which made him what he was, and instead embraced the then hated US capitalist. philosophy, so much so he said "It doesn't matter whether it's a white cat or a black, I think; a cat that catches mice is a good cat.". Thus he slapped Communism on its face and yet he adorned its cloak in a chameleon way of things.

Friedrich Nietzsche, the German philosopher, poet, composer, cultural critic, and classical philologist and who wrote critical texts on religion, morality, contemporary culture, philosophy, and science, said - One must still have chaos in oneself to be able to give birth to a dancing star.

Industrialisation can take place at a great speed in totalitarian countries like China. All one has to do is post the label -chai (demolish) and it is all over. It is not so possible in a democratic country. The people will resist giving up their land, unlike in China. Therefore, to the Chinese people such resistance would appear as 'chaos', since the Chinese are attuned to their Govt's diktat that the emphasis is on harmonious society that must obey the Govt for social order and that is in line with the ancient Chinese philosophy of Legalism where the Emperor knew best what is good for the people!

In China urbanisation may have surpassed rural, but then it has created huge problems including social issues.

China has realised the same. Inspite of a highly regulated society of China, the discontent is brimming that can lead to chaos worse than in a democracy.

Here is a report from the 18th Congress of Communist Party of China (CPC):

A crucial change which may have far reaching consequences in China was hinted at in Hu's report on the opening day: the land tenure system. China has over 297 million persons employed in agriculture, more than industry or services.....

"We should give more to farmers and take less from them and lift restrictions over their economic activities," he said in his report to the congress, indicating that the CPC is considering introducing ownership rights for the farmers. This would be one of the biggest changes in China since Mao Zedong led CPC confiscated all land from landlords after the coming to power. And, it would certainly be an issue of intense debate at the meet.

Hu's concern derives from spreading discontent in the rural hinterland. The primary reason for this is the continuing chasm between urban and rural living standards. In 2011, rural families earned 6977 yuan per person, compared to 21810 yuan for urban households, according to the Beijing-

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/China-mulling-key-land-reforms/articleshow/17176867.cms
 
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amoy

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I feel the gist of Hu's keynote speech at the 18th Congress of CCP is (roughly, in my own words)
1) to the Left Wing: no going back to the "old" way though being criticized as "deviating from Socialism"
2) to the Right: not giving way to multi-party democracy (so-called "western" or a "wicked way")
3) other key words: urbanization, social security network, domestic demands for economic targets of the next generation leadership

BusinessMirror - Hu sets China income target as communists gather
President Hu Jintao said China must double per-capita income by 2020, setting a target for the incoming generation of leaders to be unveiled at the close of a Communist Party Congress that started on Thursday.

China should double its gross domestic product (GDP) by the same year, Hu said in a speech at the opening of the party's 18th congress. Hu, forecast to hand over the title of party general secretary to Vice President Xi Jinping, also called for "deepened reform of the financial system" and more local-level democracy.

The make-up of the new Politburo Standing Committee, the top ruling body whose members will be announced after the congress ends on November 14, may give clues to China's appetite for policy shifts that the World Bank says the country must embrace to become a high-income economy.

The reform agenda ranges from breaking up state-owned monopolies to deregulating lending rates and correcting under-pricing of natural resources.

"There's no luxury to delay these reforms," said Ding Shuang, senior economist for China at Citigroup Inc. in Hong Kong, who previously worked at China's central bank. "The past 10 years, the economy has benefited from changes made in previous periods. Now, those dividends are used up," he said, referring to the country's 2001 entry to the World Trade Organization and market reforms in the 1980s and 1990s.

Hu said the non-state sector needed to have "equal access to factors of production." He said China had to strengthen its ability to innovate, advance urbanization and boost domestic demand.

Economic development remains "unbalanced, uncoordinated and unsustainable," and China's leaders must "work harder" to solve those problems, Hu said. Hu's goals, set against benchmarks from 2010, reinforce earlier party growth targets.

China was ranked 121st in gross national per capita income for 2010 by the World Bank, at $4,260, close to Jordan and Thailand and less than 1/10 of the US's $47,140.

"This should be in real terms, and implies GDP growth of 7 percent during 2013-2020, more or less in line with the targets set before," Ding said in an e-mail of the GDP growth goal. While that "seems an achievable target," doubling per-capita income is "more challenging" with a growing population, he said.

China's current five-year plan, which runs from 2011 through 2015, sets a goal of raising urban per-capita disposable income to 26,810 yuan ($4,294) from 19,109 yuan in 2010, with annual growth exceeding 7 percent a year. Growth at the same rate from 2016 through 2020 would achieve Hu's goal.
 

DaTang

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Long way from Democracy?

Could you amplify as to what is your understanding of democracy and how India is a long way from it?

Servitude: "a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life"

Democracy: "a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections"

Plutocracy: government by the wealthy

Unlike systems such as democracy or anarchism, plutocracy is not rooted in an established political philosophy.
Long way to go before developed if you can read. Democracy is not a goal, it is an instrument.
you treat democracy as your religion, or your God, very absurd indeed.
 

chase

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Communism itself is a western ideology so hu should thing again before making stupid remarks.

Thought i always appreciate the Chinese resistance to 'digestion' by western theories.By digestion i mean that chinese have always tried to create their own unique identity and they have been assertive about it.That is appreciable.
Sadly,India has been a kakistocracy(govt by the worst people) so our political sphere has yet to achieve that matured definition of our unique identity which in turn defines the policies and outlook of a nation.

But now there is lots of right wing movements growing in india which makes me hopeful about a bright future for india.
 
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