China to co-produce six AIP subs for Pakistan

badguy2000

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India have got well established ship yards and supply chain in building quality warships, the only problem we are facing is producing it in numbers like you people do, but we never lose focus on quality while producing it.

India's got MDL, and now Pipavav ship building yard coming up, where even Russians are ordering to produce their ships. We lack in conventional subs, but we'll overcome that in a period of time.
guy, I am sure that you know little about how supply-chain is.


frankly speaking, the R&D cost of even the special steel for nuke or AC might be more than the whole cost of Arjun project.

As I know, India had to import the special steel for its home-made aircraft carrer......do you know what a long supply chain supports the production of such steel? it is not only billions of USD,but also decades of R&D.
 

chex3009

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frankly speaking, the R&D cost of even the special steel for nuke or AC might be more than the whole cost of Arjun project.
Yes, even our 40 LCA Tejas costs equal to whole Junk Figher - 17 Program or FC-1, so does it mean that China haven't got an effective supply chain for producing fighters.

Donot Divert from the topic, BG, OW i will have to avert to these sort of posts which wouldn't be liked by DFI admins and Mods.
 

badguy2000

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BG, you have no clue about indian ship building. India suffers from lack of capacity to build in quantity not lack of tech knowhow or machining or other issues. LnT another private co has made big strides in ship building. Pipavav is a large shipyard with all modern facilities and is one of the biggest in asia I think. They have major plans.
well, it is a very interesting case that no Indians here acknowledges that India defence industry is lack of know-how.......your loose supply chain is the fatal weakness of India defence industry...

We can find many examples here,such as your AC.


WHen you decide to make one AC, so you made one shipyard,

but after the shipyard was finished, you find that India could not produce the steel for the AC. and you fould that to establish the capacity to produce the steel would cost billions of USD and take decades.

So you imported the steel, but then you find that you can not produce the machining tools to machine the steel. and to establish the capacity to produce the machining tools will also cost billions dollars and take decades.

So you import the machining tools and finish the hull, then you find that you can not make the engine and catapult. and you find that to establish the capacity to produce the engine and catapult will cost billions of dollar and take decades.

So you import them and finish the ship, then you find that you have not speical testbeds and testing tech to test the AC. and it will cost billions of dollars and take decades to establish the testing tech and testing beds.............so you have to send the finished AC to be tested in Russia or USA.


such cases repeats agains and agains....so the project is delayed again and again....when the project is "IOC", you find that 40% of the ship are imported.....

in fact, that is what happened to LCA exactly.....I am afraid that it would happen to India's nuke subs and AC agains.
 
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nrj

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a decent shipbuilding industry contains not long shipyard,but also the base section such as material and machining tools.However, what India's industry is lack of most is those basic sections.

to build one decent shipyards usualy take several years at most,but to build a full industry chains usually takes 2 decades at least.
Yeah we are still in Iron age learning how to rub things against each other.

BG you talk like the sole authority over another establishment you don't even aware of.

I do credit Chinese people who worked all long years to let its nation grow but you are still zillion miles away from any sophistication Western industry has.

Your noisy subs are heard daily in White House followed by vilificating jokes.
 

nrj

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well, it is a very interesting case that no Indians here acknowledges that India defence industry is lack of know-how.......your loose supply chain is the fatal weakness of India defence industry...

We can find many examples here,such as your AC.


WHen you decide to make one AC, so you made one shipyard,

but after the shipyard was finished, you find that India could not produce the steel for the AC. and you fould that to establish the capacity to produce the steel would cost billions of USD and take decades.

So you imported the steel, but then you find that you can not produce the machining tools to machine the steel. and to establish the capacity to produce the machining tools will also cost billions dollars and take decades.

So you import the machining tools and finish the hull, then you find that you can not make the engine and catapult. and you find that to establish the capacity to produce the engine and catapult will cost billions of dollar and take decades.

So you import them and finish the ship, then you find that you have not speical testbeds and testing tech to test the AC. and it will cost billions of dollars and take decades to establish the testing tech and testing beds.............so you have to send the finished AC to be tested in Russia or USA.


such cases repeats agains and agains....so the project is delayed again and again....when the project is "IOC", you find that 40% of the ship are imported.....

in fact, that is what happened to LCA exactly.....I am afraid that it would happen to India's nuke subs and AC agains.
What you said above is true till greater extent.

But, thats the basic difference between India & China. Aggressive defense buildup has been never listed among any of national priorities before (although thats not an legitimate excuse for delays). Indians are more focused on aggravated internal growth first than putting cards for world domination. Bunch of hot blooded teens talking about India dominating globe as superpower is a fantasy. In a globalized world, to pull such acct is not possible for any single country.

And at the same time; China finds itself isolated from entire world, India & Indians & Indian thinking are embraced alll over the place.

Its a different path both the countries walking & are still not in any advanced state of pre-determined goals.
 

Tshering22

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well, it is a very interesting case that no Indians here acknowledges that India defence industry is lack of know-how.......your loose supply chain is the fatal weakness of India defence industry...
Actually, this is only partially correct. Our problem is capacity producing. That is what is your strong point and hence you produce faster. Take the example fo Tejas and J-10. Whatever means we used for each of these jets you and us, the reason how you got it airborne was due to expanding the infrastructure to mass-produce. HAL promises only 12-15 jets per year while China can make maybe 50 per year. This is why you are ahead of us in inducting fast. Since you have the manufacturing infrastructure in place. Something which we lack.

Also compared to your system of clearing weapons and defence stuff, ours is more bureaucratic, slow and lacks decisiveness being a democracy whereas decisions are taken very fast in your country due to the structure of Defense establishment. A plus point that China has over India is fast decision making.

We can find many examples here,such as your AC.

WHen you decide to make one AC, so you made one shipyard,

but after the shipyard was finished, you find that India could not produce the steel for the AC. and you fould that to establish the capacity to produce the steel would cost billions of USD and take decades. So you imported the steel, but then you find that you can not produce the machining tools to machine the steel. and to establish the capacity to produce the machining tools will also cost billions dollars and take decades.
The thing is, we did consider approaching Russia for steel importing at one time, but it seems they didn't have it. So SAIL (steel authority in India) started laying infrastructure to make the aircraft carrier A/B grade steel indigenously and was successful but it cost us a year extra. We were expected to start trials in 2012 but now it will be in 2013 and commissioning in 2014. Not much of a delay if you ask me.

Viraat is still strong enough and how it continues to be seaworthy is an amazement for its makers too. It is expected to work till 2018. By the time Vikrant II comes out, Vikramaditya will already be sailing. As for the tools, they are there already and this is what cost us a the time as you say, although not too much for considering a delay by our standards.

So you import the machining tools and finish the hull, then you find that you can not make the engine and catapult. and you find that to establish the capacity to produce the engine and catapult will cost billions of dollar and take decades.
Our carriers are not based on catapult type but the ski-jump configuration. Trust me, everything doesn't take decades.

So you import them and finish the ship, then you find that you have not speical testbeds and testing tech to test the AC. and it will cost billions of dollars and take decades to establish the testing tech and testing beds.............so you have to send the finished AC to be tested in Russia or USA.
Hence we took this time delay. CSL has already been working on it.


such cases repeats agains and agains....so the project is delayed again and again....when the project is "IOC", you find that 40% of the ship are imported.....
Less than that. In fact, our shipbuilding got a huge boost after inducting Shivalik class. barring the propulsion and a few Klub missiles (with BrahMos) everything is indigenous.

in fact, that is what happened to LCA exactly.....I am afraid that it would happen to India's nuke subs and AC agains.
Since you take Tejas' example again, hear from the mouth of the program head himself what I am going to quote down for you. He gave an interview telling why Tejas took time.

India ensured its place among an elite group of countries making a fighter jet from scratch when the indigenous multi-role Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas got initial operational clearance this week. A key part in this success was placed by the avionics and flight control systems that were designed by DRDO's Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE). PS Krishnan, distinguished scientist and Director, ADE gives Anirvan Ghosh an inside view of Tejas's journey and the challenges faced along the way

It took the Tejas 1,500 test flights and 23 years of development to get to this point. Isn't that too long?

You have to see that it started as a thought process in 1983 and there was no funding at that point. For the next ten years, we firmed up the requirements and then went into project definition phase. We went to France and Germany and took their expertise in fixing up the aerodynamic configuration. Post that we were ready with a firm proposal and the funding finally started from the second half of 1992. It did take time, but we had to go through the proper processes.

Then there were the sanctions after Pokhran II. How did that affect the development of Tejas?

Let me be clear — we perhaps got delayed by two years. On the day the sanctions came into force, our team was in the US offices of our partners there (Lockheed Martin and BAE Inc.). The team was working on integration of software with the hardware of the LCA. Suddenly we were asked to leave the offices, and we were not even allowed to take back the designs we were working on the systems there, and those were almost ready to be tested. We had to again develop it from memory, because we weren't allowed to copy our own stuff, which delayed the whole thing.

You are saying that you had to spend some time recovering what you had already worked on and then build on it?

Exactly. But the sanctions also spurred us on to do better, and to make the entire fighter aircraft on our own. So in the next few years, we did not just recover what we had lost back then, but also went some steps ahead and achieved the expertise that we had tied up with the US companies for. So now we had what they had but need not rely on them anymore. So ultimately that did delay us, but also made us stronger.

Was there a point where you were close to losing faith because of the difficulties that cropped up?

Never really. When we came back from the US, I was called by Dr APJ Abdul Kalam (who was then the scientific adviser to the Prime Minister). I met him in his office, along with my boss at that time. He asked me directly, "Can you guys do it?" and I replied, "Yes." At that time I just thought we could and didn't think much about the odds. When I did, well of course we were up against quite a few obstacles.

What was driving you at that point in the face of those odds and how did you ensure the team stayed motivated?

The thought that alternatives simply wouldn't do. Here we were making the fly-by-wire system, which would control the aircraft like anautomated system. Procuring the same from MNCs would have firstly cost more and made us just a small cog in the wheel. Here we were staring at odds but we also had the chance to create a new wheel, to invent a new system. This was a challenge we all rose up to. I told my team at ADE that they had a chance to create history and be a part of creating something that had never been done before. They were up for it and responded. In all the 1,500 flights we have had so far, we never had one single failure. Those included Tejas in its stages as tech demonstrators, prototype vehicles and limited series production (LSP).

Did you succeed in retaining more of the core team and talent after the pay commissions's pay hike?

That came later when the team had already done a major portion of the work. Surely, the pay hikes by the government have allowed us to retain talent. Before that some people did move out of the project and went in the private sector where they were better paid. But when I met them later at some event, they said that they missed working on cutting edge technology and making something entirely new.

Now you are working on the Regional Transport Aircraft as well as the unmanned aerial combat vehicle?

Yes, we are making the flight control systems for that project which is headed by NAL. The flight control system and data link packages of Aura (unmanned combat aerial vehicle) will be designed and developed jointly by ADE and Defence Electronic Application Laboratory, Dehradun.

Many private and public agencies worked on the Tejas. They are now collaborating on the transport aircraft. Does this lead to confusion and delays?

No, because the parameters are clearly defined. In fact, this happened smoothly also because of BAE North America. When we were partnering with them, they had formulated the methodology on how various agencies would work, and we followed it rigorously.

There are certain things like wake penetration, and others that the IAF chief said need to be ironed out and the deadline is June. Will you be in a position to meet the deadline?

Of course, we already have done most of it. There are some control loss trials, which are essential before it can be operationalised. Those flights will be completed before June. No modifications are required as I see it, but then we will have a clearer picture post the tests and then whatever changes are needed will be implemented.
Arihant is already undergoing sea trials now, mate. NOTHING of that is imported. Not the propulsion, not the reactor and neither the missiles that it will carry. Vikrant II will do the same in 2014. As I said, you don't know why this is happening. Your supply chain simply became strong because you depend on exporting. We have a different structure of internal consumption and compound that with the bureaucracy of a large number of government officials, you get delays at times.

We don't lack basic know-how.
 

anoop_mig25

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i think china is forcing us in arms race with pakistan. our policymakers despite having threat form 2 fromts has still able to keep defence budget below 2.50% that of GDP and thats what causing concern for china and hence they are providing all this stuff for fist in name of soft loan and then free to paksiatan. pakistan has nothing to loose as money saved on chinese stuff can used to but stuff form western world.we should find same minded partner/nation so that we can devlope advance technology in co-operation with them. this would help us to save money as it would bring down cost as well as we would have the said technology
 
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chex3009

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i think china is forcing us in arms race with pakistan. our policymakers despite having threat form 2 fromts has still able to keep defence budget below 2.50% that of GDP and thats what causing concern for china and hence they are providing all this stuff for fist in name of soft loan and then free to paksiatan. pakistan has nothing to loose as money saved on chinese stuff can used to but stuff form western world.we should find same minded partner/nation so that we can devlope advance technology in co-operation. this help us to save money as it would bring down cost as well as we would have the said technology
Mate, we are being forced to race against China itself, not against the Pakistanis, Not only us but whole of Asia in indulging in this race by the fear of the communists rising, militarily.
 

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well, it is a very interesting case that no Indians here acknowledges that India defence industry is lack of know-how.......your loose supply chain is the fatal weakness of India defence industry...

We can find many examples here,such as your AC.


WHen you decide to make one AC, so you made one shipyard,

but after the shipyard was finished, you find that India could not produce the steel for the AC. and you fould that to establish the capacity to produce the steel would cost billions of USD and take decades.

So you imported the steel, but then you find that you can not produce the machining tools to machine the steel. and to establish the capacity to produce the machining tools will also cost billions dollars and take decades.

So you import the machining tools and finish the hull, then you find that you can not make the engine and catapult. and you find that to establish the capacity to produce the engine and catapult will cost billions of dollar and take decades.

So you import them and finish the ship, then you find that you have not speical testbeds and testing tech to test the AC. and it will cost billions of dollars and take decades to establish the testing tech and testing beds.............so you have to send the finished AC to be tested in Russia or USA.


such cases repeats agains and agains....so the project is delayed again and again....when the project is "IOC", you find that 40% of the ship are imported.....

in fact, that is what happened to LCA exactly.....I am afraid that it would happen to India's nuke subs and AC agains.
SAIL (steel authority of india) supplies ship grade steel. india is not importing steel for its ship. not much is said about govt shipyards for obvious reasons,but here http://www.pipavavshipyard.com/ is a look at what this private shipyard has got.
 

Yusuf

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Its his choice to understand or remain ignorant.
 

ChinaToday

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Incredible world superpower India need not fear uncivilised undemocratic weak nation like china
 

Ray

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it is the best idea that India just stand still and wait for the explosion of CHinese bubbles....India need do nothing before China collapse.
I would be immensely surprised if India standstill, while the Chinese bubble bursts.

I seriously disbelief that Pakistan can pay for the submarines, no matter what is the 'friendship' price. And I seriously disbelief that China, which is serious competition with the US over global hegemony, will divert funds to float Pakistan's boat!
 

Ray

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Incredible world superpower India need not fear uncivilised undemocratic weak nation like china
This forum takes serious note calling foreign nations as uncivilised without explaining the reason. Undemocratic, it might be.

Are you from China? If so, it is shameful that you call your nation as uncivilised, but you are right that it is not democratic.

The only weakness I find of China is that they take weak jasmine tea.

India is not a superpower. However, you are right India is Incredible - Incredible India!
 
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arya

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guys keep cool but please talk with logic
 

Ray

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Incredible India is the tourism department slogan like Malaysia Truly Asia.
 
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Definitely this would take years to complete such submarines and china can't give it for free to Pakistan too. Of course china can give these submarines in low cost but this would definitely compromise with some features in subs. We have enough time to counter this but personally I feel that we should go for enhancement of anti-submarine capabilities like P-8 aircraft and fish hawk type of weapons for anti-sub operations along with acquiring new subs.
India has possibly acquired Fish hawk the details have not been released??

http://knol.google.com/k/vijainder-k-thakur/p-8i-indian-navy-maritime-multimission/yo54fmdhy2mq/13#

Weapon Suite
At the Singapore air show in February 2010, Boeing revealed that the Indian Navy had sought Raytheon Fish Hawk GPS-guidance wing kit along with MK-54 anti-submarine torpedoes as part of the weapons package.
 
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http://www.raytheon.com/newsroom/technology/rtn10_sas/news02/index.html

Raytheon's Fish Hawk: A Game Changer for Anti-Submarine Warfare

For the first time in Asia, Raytheon Missile Systems will show a model of its Fish Hawk wing kit at the Singapore Air Show from Feb. 2 to 5. The Fish Hawk is Raytheon's answer to the U.S. Navy's need for a high altitude anti-submarine weapon. The wing kit would give U.S. allies in the Asia-Pacific region the capability to deploy torpedoes from an extended launch envelope.

The kit attaches to Raytheon's MK 54 lightweight torpedo and the P-8 Multi-Mission Maritime Aircraft to precisely deploy torpedoes from high altitudes while standing off a safe distance from a target. Once launched, the system uses precision GPS to glide the torpedo toward the water to seek out, engage and destroy a threat submarine.

Fish Hawk, which was designed from the ground up for the P-8 Poseidon, offers new capabilities that will enable aircraft to launch from higher altitudes, enhancing survivability. The system also provides longer time on station thanks to reduced fuel consumption. Another benefit: Fish Hawk reduces airframe stress because the aircraft is no longer required to dive down to the target in order to deploy an anti-submarine torpedo.

The Singapore Air Show is the largest aerospace and defense exhibition in Asia. At this global marketplace, allies from navies all over the world will have the opportunity to learn more about Fish Hawk's game-changing capabilities.

Key Points

* Modular GPS-guided wing kit for the MK54 lightweight torpedo
* Specifically designed for the P-8 Poseidon
* Mature, combat-proven components make this a low-risk weapon
 
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http://www.deagel.com/news/Air-Laun...Kit-Demonstrated-Successfully_n000004202.aspx

Air Launched Fish Hawk MK 54 Torpedo Modification Kit Demonstrated Successfully


Raytheon Proves Advanced Anti-Submarine Capability with Successful Flight Test

EGLIN AIR FORCE BASE, Fla., May 14, 2008 /PRNewswire/ -- Raytheon Company (NYSE: RTN) has entered the U.S. Navy's High Altitude Anti-Submarine Warfare Weapons Concept (HAAWC) competition, successfully demonstrating a new weapon system -- the Fish Hawk -- March 21 at the Eglin flight demonstration range in the Gulf of Mexico.

The Fish Hawk is a kit that attaches to Raytheon's MK54 lightweight torpedo and enables submarine-hunting aircraft like the P-8 Multi Mission Maritime Aircraft and P-3 Orion to precisely deploy torpedoes from high altitudes while standing off a safe distance from a target.

During the March demonstration, an aircraft flying at 15,000 feet jettisoned a Fish Hawk-equipped dummy torpedo. The Fish Hawk's wings rapidly deployed and the weapon system then glided more than 10 nautical miles, splashing down well within the small target area and achieving all primary test objectives.

"This flight test successfully demonstrated the ability of Fish Hawk to accurately place the MK54 torpedo on target after release from a high-altitude aircraft like the P-3 or P-8," said Ken Pedersen, Raytheon vice president of Advanced Programs. "We look forward to leveraging our expertise as the world's leader in precision guided munitions and presenting the customer with a cost-effective design that meets or exceeds all HAAWC requirements."

The kit is composed of wings that deploy after the system is released from an aircraft, a control section and a Global Positioning System-Inertial Navigation System precision guidance system. The kit is designed to enable both the P-3 and P-8 to maximize loadout by deploying the system from the aircraft bomb bay.

Fish Hawk offers new capabilities that will enable aircraft to launch from higher altitudes and thus enhance survivability. The system also provides longer time on station thanks to reduced fuel consumption. Additionally, Fish Hawk reduces airframe stress because the aircraft is no longer required to dive down to the target in order to deploy an anti-submarine torpedo.
 

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