kargil was also captured by pakisatan that time...it only the difference in time period....kargil was held for 30 days , GB has been held for 60 years....
China has military presence in Gilgit-Baltistan (PoK)
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And that is the difference. 60 years. They are well entrenched there. To get a few peaks back from them we sacrficed 560 brave men. You are talking about 72000 sq kms. It will be a bloodbath.
SHASH2K2
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This step clearly shows that Pakistan is hell bent on making Kashmir a Trilateral Issue . Any conflict due to Kashmir will drag China as well . Pakistanis clearly knows that with time gap between India and Pakistan military will widen and they plan to use China to fill in the gap between two.
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Yes, only the conditions needed to be favorable!
We can retake POK!, Operation Parakram was successful within the army and eyes of many Military experts..
Moving of hundreds thousands troops, supplies and machines within days was the fastest deployment of grround force in History of Asia and this is a record made by IA which is still strong and not broken..
The operation failure was because of Political decision which took time, this resulted loss of momentum within the force hence loss of surprise!
local population presently not with pakistan...surely they won't support chines..
anyway , chines didn't have a moral ground to fight for GB if indian forces attacked the area...
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Kunal, the time taken to mobilize was still not good enough to do anything. Thats what led to the cold start doctrine. Yes there was a lot the army learnt from Op P'ram. We could have still gone to war in spite of pak being ready as we still were a superior force. But the govt of the time did not want to fight.
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GB population has been diluted by Pak by settling punjabis there. We would require a huge war that will cost India men and money and economy pushed back by a lot to take back GB if at all.
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@Yusaf,
You need to understand certin things, IA got max casualty in early coz their was no difinate plan also no arty and air-support, In a planed their are less or no causality, In Bangladesh war Army fought on 2 fronts and won 1971 war, Only because we know what ahead us....
the area is under china and there are reports of chines troops suppressing the local population ...
PoK leaders want merger with India
By d-sector Team
"I am surprised that India has no concern about what is happening in Gilgit and Baltistan. Pakistan has been openly supporting and encouraging militants in Indian Kashmir and New Delhi doesn't even want to keep contact with areas that are officially still a part of its own territory," said Abdul Hamid Khan, chairman of Balawaristan National Front, a political party whose objective is to gain independence from Pakistan. Northern Areas are historically known as Balawaristan.
Balwaristan
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If India had expanded the Kargil war back then, some territory could have been occupied. But then we were under a lot of pressure. We didnt even shoot down an F-16 that was in sight. Also, India just didnt want a full scale war.
I spoke with senior IA who is with MI, he said India will find it very difficult to take back those areas now. Would we be ready for a shooting contest? Also it will be back to discussing the two front war. What if China too opens the eastern sector? Bravado aside, we have to think of other strategy too apart from war. Pakistan is not the concern now, its the chinese.
I spoke with senior IA who is with MI, he said India will find it very difficult to take back those areas now. Would we be ready for a shooting contest? Also it will be back to discussing the two front war. What if China too opens the eastern sector? Bravado aside, we have to think of other strategy too apart from war. Pakistan is not the concern now, its the chinese.
ganesh177
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India will have to play something big for POK along with US.
US is comfortable with indian control over pok, than chinese.
And this is good time when POK is cut off from rest of pakistan due to floods.
We can also assure the supplies to nato in afghanistan once we get POK, so that US has more interest in this.
US is comfortable with indian control over pok, than chinese.
And this is good time when POK is cut off from rest of pakistan due to floods.
We can also assure the supplies to nato in afghanistan once we get POK, so that US has more interest in this.
Solid Beast
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I think military action to take back Kashmir will not work. Such an idea only capitulates to Pakistani and Chinese higher command. India needs to turn the heat up on the information and intelligence war against China. Then collectively, the pressure must be put on Tibet and Xinjiang. Currently India's position is much too soft to do anything but gaze inquisitively at our long ago conceived plans to house Chinese military and assets in Kashmir and involve China in a future war if possible.
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well tshering,i understand what ur feeling! i have lost loved ones,my dad was in QRT(quick reaction team) of MCF(marine commando force),we lost him in anantnag! my first cousin laid down his life in kargil conflict,multiple gunshot wunds in the drass sector and now my younger brother is in SPG,serving a former primeminister's family,he was drafted from the NSG(though i personally dislike using the best SF operators on guarding corrupt ex pm's,but thats a personal view! not taking into account the other factors!)
i too have served the army proudly,passed out from IMA,was in 11 paras,got an early discharge cos of an incident rendering me disabled.not to mention being in the forces is a tradition in my family and kin,which iam proud of! iam not saying all this just for the sake of bragging,but the underlying point is i have seen the action,both as an operator and as an observer,and i think as ahmedsid has rightly said that the need of the hour is not to be headstrong but to take a pragmatic approach,as outright war will only lead to wastage of resources and lives,it'll lead to a quagmire given the current global geopoitical situation! and tshering u were right,maybe our government has made blunders in the past but the need of the hour is to not ponder oer past follies but to find a practical solution to the issue in hand!
Sir, what pragmatism would you use if an intruder enters your house and manhandles your daughter? What pragmatic approach would you take if you this intruder puts a knife on your son's neck and asks you all your wealth and the very house where you stay? Won't you wait for him to just blink once so that you can launch yourself on him and kill him? I respect the fact that you have served our forces and am honored to have the opportunity to talk to you.
However, you would know that Pakistan is right now doing that "blinking" that I talked about. Now if you go to chivalry code of ancient warriors, this is called attacking from behind. But I think it is about time we stopped playing fair and started exploiting our enemy's weakness rather than donate them our hard earned money that would ultimately be used against us one day in some form. Surely you don't deny this. Gone are the days of chivalry and code of honour when you have enemies like PLA and Pakistani forces that use mercenaries and terrorists to attack unarmed and un-trained innocent civilians. If we had a lion-hearted government, this would be the time when we'd have struck on terror camps in POK. But no.. what did we do? Give $ 5 million that will never reach those affected by floods.
About time we learn something from smart countries like Israel. Both of us share much similarities; like-minded terrorists, surrounded by enemies (Let's be frank here out of 6 countries only 2 countries happen to show anything called genuine friendship), similar issues within the country, domestic terrorism courtesy likes of SIMI, Popular Front of India rising (Kerala) etc. I think we should consider taking steps like them before it is too late. You speak from operative's perspective whereas I am speaking from an advance-planning and far sighted strategist.
Offense is the best defense. If we (we can) can strike first and hard as a surprise attack and retract back behind a stalemate, we have neither an official explanation to do at UN nor do we have to face any sort of economic issues unlike a full-fledged war. Pakistan uses militants against us; we use heavily-armed and well protected special forces into these "terror camp" regions in POK and rapidly evacuate them once operations are over.
Though I despise Communism and its idealists, I will have to quote Josef Stalin here. He once said "What use is a weapon made, if it is not to be used?". And we haven't drawn the first blood here so all the more reasons to retaliate.
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Guess sometimes it takes a hard slap on the back of people's head to make them realize hat was good for them.:emot15:
I think we have to start responding to belligerence of Chinese. Pakistan would bow down and become the carpet for Chinese in POK since they are right now in a worse situation than they were with US during Cold War. This thing is getting really out of control.
As if claiming us Sikkimese and Arunachal Pradesh wasn't enough, now they want Kashmir too? I hope our Appeasement-based coward government grows some spine.
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^^ I second that.
A variety of foreign intelligence sources, Pakistani-based journalists and Pakistani human rights workers reveal two important new developments in Gilgit-Baltistan: 1)
a simmering rebellion against Pakistani rule and 2) the influx of an estimated 7,000 to 11,000 soldiers of the People's Liberation Army." (S. Harrison)
The benefits are as much economic as they are strategic-military: when, in the distant future, high-speed rail links are completed in Gilgit and Baltistan, China will be able to transport cargo from Eastern China to the new Chinese-built sea-ports at Gwadar, Pasni and Ormara, east of the Gulf, within 48 hours. The solution seems to be getting these ports not to work: we've done that with Gwadar, with the Singapore-based company that has ensured the delay runs for years, but I'm not so sure about the other two. All three of these ports are in Balochistan, and an insurgency there and attacks on the ports would ensure they are put out of action.
There is also some very disconcerting news about "22 secret tunnels being constructed by PLA soldiers", where Pakisthanies are barred. Tunnels would be necessary for a projected gas pipeline from Iran to China that would cross the Himalayas through Gilgit. But they could also be used as missile silos. Our job would be to ensure that these sites never come to fruition.
Now would be a good time to rake up the Kashmir issue. I see now why the PM wanted a resolution to the Kashmir dispute under Musharraf. But raking up the simmering discontent, that is brewing in PoK and using it to our advantage, while simultaneously mounting strikes on the trans-Karakoram Highway, being built to link China's Sinkiang Province with Pakistan, would serve to delay the work and impose additional costs on China. Similarly, a project through Burma into the Gulf of Thailand should be investigated.
What we should understand is, that Chinese companies taking up infrastructure projects within PoK is an indication, despite the rhetoric of its being 'disputed', of a tacit acknowledgment of PoK being Pakistani. There are legal foreign policy ramifications for this- for it represents a deviation from a stance of an official foreign policy statement from officialdom- to one of real-world realpolitik, that does not bare well for the region. India should adopt a similar stance and renew its policy on Tibet. Quid pro quo, and it's some time for some quo'ing baby.
The problem's also compounded by Pakistan issuing visas-on-arrival to tourists from China at the Taxkurgan border outpost in Xingjian. Most tourists then are free to move within their 'country', including Pakistani-Occupied-Kashmir and the border areas along the L-O-C. One immediate solution would be to impose upon their foreign office not to issue visas upon arrival, and to get rid of Shah Mehmood Qureshi. That would be done by making it a focal point of all talks, and exacting that as a concession.
We've dug ourselves into a deep hole by allowing the freedom of press in Kashmir. Meanwhile, the world's attention remains unfocused on the simmering discontent within P-o-K.
Nepal is also a quagmire we should quickly resolve- ruthless suppression of the Maoists by an India-backed government and the construction of road and rail links right up to Tibet. Meanwhile, a few soldiers manning the border in Nepal under an agreement.
India is a case of opium or sub-opium restraint. And we cannot allow our foolhardi-ness to get the better of us a second time.
A variety of foreign intelligence sources, Pakistani-based journalists and Pakistani human rights workers reveal two important new developments in Gilgit-Baltistan: 1)
a simmering rebellion against Pakistani rule and 2) the influx of an estimated 7,000 to 11,000 soldiers of the People's Liberation Army." (S. Harrison)
The benefits are as much economic as they are strategic-military: when, in the distant future, high-speed rail links are completed in Gilgit and Baltistan, China will be able to transport cargo from Eastern China to the new Chinese-built sea-ports at Gwadar, Pasni and Ormara, east of the Gulf, within 48 hours. The solution seems to be getting these ports not to work: we've done that with Gwadar, with the Singapore-based company that has ensured the delay runs for years, but I'm not so sure about the other two. All three of these ports are in Balochistan, and an insurgency there and attacks on the ports would ensure they are put out of action.
There is also some very disconcerting news about "22 secret tunnels being constructed by PLA soldiers", where Pakisthanies are barred. Tunnels would be necessary for a projected gas pipeline from Iran to China that would cross the Himalayas through Gilgit. But they could also be used as missile silos. Our job would be to ensure that these sites never come to fruition.
Now would be a good time to rake up the Kashmir issue. I see now why the PM wanted a resolution to the Kashmir dispute under Musharraf. But raking up the simmering discontent, that is brewing in PoK and using it to our advantage, while simultaneously mounting strikes on the trans-Karakoram Highway, being built to link China's Sinkiang Province with Pakistan, would serve to delay the work and impose additional costs on China. Similarly, a project through Burma into the Gulf of Thailand should be investigated.
What we should understand is, that Chinese companies taking up infrastructure projects within PoK is an indication, despite the rhetoric of its being 'disputed', of a tacit acknowledgment of PoK being Pakistani. There are legal foreign policy ramifications for this- for it represents a deviation from a stance of an official foreign policy statement from officialdom- to one of real-world realpolitik, that does not bare well for the region. India should adopt a similar stance and renew its policy on Tibet. Quid pro quo, and it's some time for some quo'ing baby.
The problem's also compounded by Pakistan issuing visas-on-arrival to tourists from China at the Taxkurgan border outpost in Xingjian. Most tourists then are free to move within their 'country', including Pakistani-Occupied-Kashmir and the border areas along the L-O-C. One immediate solution would be to impose upon their foreign office not to issue visas upon arrival, and to get rid of Shah Mehmood Qureshi. That would be done by making it a focal point of all talks, and exacting that as a concession.
We've dug ourselves into a deep hole by allowing the freedom of press in Kashmir. Meanwhile, the world's attention remains unfocused on the simmering discontent within P-o-K.
Nepal is also a quagmire we should quickly resolve- ruthless suppression of the Maoists by an India-backed government and the construction of road and rail links right up to Tibet. Meanwhile, a few soldiers manning the border in Nepal under an agreement.
India is a case of opium or sub-opium restraint. And we cannot allow our foolhardi-ness to get the better of us a second time.
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Army readies for China threat
The Chinese have escalated their aggressive designs on the country's border areas and the Indian Army is prepared to face the threat. The Army has activated its airfields along the Line of Actual Control and enhanced its military presence and capabilities in the area. The roads to these airfields upgraded.
The Chinese influence has expanded from the Line of Actual Control (with India) to the Northern Areas of Pakistan.
The People's Liberation Army is building infrastructure in Gilgit and Baltistan (Northern Areas) with Pakistan's encouragement.
The New York Times' disclosure on Saturday that there are 11,000 Chinese troops in Gilgit-Baltistan is a "developing story" for the Indian Army, sources said.
The sources added that they were aware of what was going on.
The issue has been discussed and a strategic response worked out based on the apprehension that the threat would manifest itself by 2020.
Silence was being deliberately maintained, sources told Hindustan Times.
"The defence is supplemented by modern surveillance means," a source said.
Army readies for China threat - Hindustan Times
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tharikiran
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This whole thing looks like we have to get ready for a two front war.
I am totally convinced about this now.I don't see a war with just Pakistan anynore.
It's like everyone's watching as to who will make the final move.
Right now the Chinese are making them.
Hitting first always has advantages. Give the Chinese bloody noses.
I am totally convinced about this now.I don't see a war with just Pakistan anynore.
It's like everyone's watching as to who will make the final move.
Right now the Chinese are making them.
Hitting first always has advantages. Give the Chinese bloody noses.
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Are you suggesting that India start a conflict with China??
